this is apalling (NHS to refuse surgery to the obese and smokers)

[Clip]

And which demographics tend to get the best education..?

Everyone goes to school dont they?

 

[AlterEgo]

And which demographics tend to get the best education..?

Are you suggesting that there are people who don't know that fruit and veg is better for you than fishfingers and waffles? Or that it's cheaper? Or that you can make job lots of food and freeze them? Sorry, not buying that.

 

[richw]

Are you suggesting that there are people who don't know that fruit and veg is better for you than fishfingers and waffles? Or that it's cheaper? Or that you can make job lots of food and freeze them? Sorry, not buying that.

I think very few people consider job lots and freezing. I've heard many single friends say they don't eat well because it's too expensive to buy ingredients such examples include a tub of mince and veg to make a bolognese and they end up with waste if they do. I always ask about why they don't freeze and the answer is always didn't know you could do that.
Batch cooking was part of gcse food tech for me, at no other point have I learnt about batch cook and freezing. I opted to do food tech as I believed it was more useful to life than woodwork or metal work. I need to cook every day but in the 12 years since leaving school not once have i needed woodwork or metal work skills. I was one of only 4 boys in my year who did food tech. Maybe teenage lads are missing out on these important skills as they choose the wood/metal options?

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's down to education and knowing that the supermarket isn't always the cheapest place, and knowing what to do with lesser cuts of meat.

I agree that the issue is much more complicated than simply people being too uninformed, unintelligent or poor to eat well. It is also much more complicated than people being too lazy to eat well.

I am overweight, significantly so, and I am not uninformed, lazy or poor. I used to be this size, lost a lot of weight, over five stone, so I know how to do it; unfortunately I put most of it back on when I got divorced. Which can give us all a good idea how these things happen.

If people are routinely overeating they will usually know they are. The question is taking the time to find out why. For some it will be mental health issues, loneliness, boredom, sadness. Some won't know how to cook differently. Some will be too poor to cook differently.

Part of the problem, too, is nothing to do with people, it's to do with availability. If I forget to make a packed lunch, the closest I can get to a healthy option near work is a Subway salad or a £4 sushi box. The other options are Greggs, KFC, McDonald's, Greggs again, Milligans Pasties, and another Greggs. It's the same in most towns and cities.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Are you suggesting that there are people who don't know that fruit and veg is better for you than fishfingers and waffles? Or that it's cheaper? Or that you can make job lots of food and freeze them? Sorry, not buying that.

Preparing it is the issue - or does everyone have the time and energy to learn several interesting recipes? And you need self-discipline, which is something you learn from a good education.

Why do you think people eat badly? Personal preference to have no money?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Are you suggesting that there are people who don't know that fruit and veg is better for you than fishfingers and waffles?

It isn't always that simple, overeating fruit is just as bad for you as overeating anything else.

Fruit is good for you. Of course it is. But then one small banana has the same calories as four rich tea biscuits. And if fruit is good for you, then surely fruit juice is too. Yet a glass of orange juice has more calories in it than a glass of Coca Cola.

It's easy to sit and assume that fat people do nothing but eat Steak Bakes and thin people do nothing but nibble on lettuce. The truth is often very different.

 

[Clip]

I agree that the issue is much more complicated than simply people being too uninformed, unintelligent or poor to eat well. It is also much more complicated than people being too lazy to eat well.

I am overweight, significantly so, and I am not uninformed, lazy or poor. I used to be this size, lost a lot of weight, over five stone, so I know how to do it; unfortunately I put most of it back on when I got divorced. Which can give us all a good idea how these things happen.

If people are routinely overeating they will usually know they are. The question is taking the time to find out why. For some it will be mental health issues, loneliness, boredom, sadness. Some won't know how to cook differently. Some will be too poor to cook differently.

Part of the problem, too, is nothing to do with people, it's to do with availability. If I forget to make a packed lunch, the closest I can get to a healthy option near work is a Subway salad or a £4 sushi box. The other options are Greggs, KFC, McDonald's, Greggs again, Milligans Pasties, and another Greggs. It's the same in most towns and cities.

Dont knock greggs. Dont ever knock greggs.

They also do have lots of healthier options than a sausage and bean melt - maybe start looking away from the hot plates next time you go in there

 

[Bletchleyite]

Part of the problem, too, is nothing to do with people, it's to do with availability. If I forget to make a packed lunch, the closest I can get to a healthy option near work is a Subway salad or a £4 sushi box. The other options are Greggs, KFC, McDonald's, Greggs again, Milligans Pasties, and another Greggs. It's the same in most towns and cities.

Greggs don't just sell pasties and sausage rolls, they also sell a good range of reasonably healthy sandwiches.

Subway's salad bowls are excellent and healthy (though, being gluten free and not massively on a diet, I do have a bad habit of speccing them up so they have as many calories in as a footlong sandwich ).

You've got plenty of choice there, you just need to exercise it properly. Or don't forget your sandwiches!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It isn't always that simple, overeating fruit is just as bad for you as overeating anything else.

Fruit is good for you. Of course it is. But then one small banana has the same calories as four rich tea biscuits. And if fruit is good for you, then surely fruit juice is too. Yet a glass of orange juice has more calories in it than a glass of Coca Cola.

Takes a bit of education there - fruit juice is full of sugar. Of course, you can dilute it to make a nice refreshing long drink that isn't as plasticky as squash.

Bananas are very high in calories compared with most fruit, FWIW, and should probably be classed alongside biscuits. Apples are a far lower calorie choice. I doubt anybody would be able to eat enough apples to put on significant weight without being full or sick.

It's easy to sit and assume that fat people do nothing but eat Steak Bakes and thin people do nothing but nibble on lettuce. The truth is often very different.

Having a Steak Bake for lunch each day, perhaps with an apple rather than a bag of crisps, probably isn't all that bad if you have a healthy breakfast and dinner - it's all about the balance.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Are you suggesting that there are people who don't know that fruit and veg is better for you than fishfingers and waffles? Or that it's cheaper? Or that you can make job lots of food and freeze them? Sorry, not buying that.

You paint the situation as very black and white, when in reality it isn't.

Sure the example you give is clear cut. But what we are realising now is that a lot of the "healthy" options we are given by food companies / supermarkets are actually no better for you than the "less healthy" versions of the product. Yoghurts, drinks etc are really good examples of this. Especially when it comes to sugar. For years the advise was fat is bad for you, so people started buying low fat versions of foods. But now we know that quite often the low fat versions are not better for you because of the added sugar.

And there are plenty of examples of middle class parents giving their kids lots of fruit juice in their diet (which they thought was healthy) only the be shocked when they are told by the dentist that their kids teeth are in a horrible state.

 

[Clip]

And there are plenty of examples of middle class parents giving their kids lots of fruit juice in their diet (which they thought was healthy) only the be shocked when they are told by the dentist that their kids teeth are in a horrible state.

Quite which goes to show that this comment

And which demographics tend to get the best education..?

Is total hyperbole from someone who believes its only the poorest who dont get the best education.

 

[DarloRich]

Preparing it is the issue - or does everyone have the time and energy to learn several interesting recipes? And you need self-discipline, which is something you learn from a good education.

Why do you think people eat badly? Personal preference to have no money?

but even when I was on the dole and didn't have a penny to my name (and was fighting off the bailiffs/CCJ's and bankruptcy) i still bought fresh food. It was cheaper and went further. The market was great as was the local butcher and the market meat wagon.

Learning a few recipes really isn't hard. The internet is full of them. I will be honest being properly skint is fairly good for self discipline. Chuck in a key meter and you will soon learn the value of money management. Sitting in the cold and the dark is not fun.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Learning a few recipes really isn't hard. The internet is full of them. I will be honest being properly skint is fairly good for self discipline. Chuck in a key meter and you will soon learn the value of money management. Sitting in the cold and the dark is not fun.

Going a little OT, but I have wondered if key meters (or PAYG energy in general, perhaps topping up online but with a relatively small maximum top up so you couldn't put £100 on and forget about it) should be mandatory - people would actually think about energy use much more carefully if they felt they had to directly pay for it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Preparing it is the issue - or does everyone have the time and energy to learn several interesting recipes?

Boil a pot of pasta and drain. Fry $VEGETABLE and add a tin of cheap tomatoes. Mix all in together. Eat.

By varying $VEGETABLE (or meat) you get 20+ dishes all in one go.

Sick of pasta? Do the same thing with rice for a poor man's risotto. Another 20+ dishes.

It's not hard - perhaps people just need telling that!

Time for Home Economics to return more prominently to schools? I do think so.

Why do you think people eat badly? Personal preference to have no money?

I suspect the main issue is sheer bone idleness.

 

[crispy1978]

People might be obese because of a medical condition or disabillity.
I'm also convinced that my two unrelated cats with the same diet being fat and thin suggests that a person's DNA can have a big effect on how soon someone becomes obese.

Even if they had mass hamburger eating competitions daily, they need help like everyone else.
This is a savage move by the careless polliticians and bureaucrats.

Exactly my point. I have a friend, who has been on prescribed steriods (and a plethora of other medications) for a rare and complicated medical condition for the last 2 years, and during this point has put on about 8 stone in weight - he will need an operation in the future, and he is now worried that with these new guidelines, he will become excluded from the operation due to his medical condition.

I am assuming that there is something which in this case would mean he cannot be refused an operation, as there would be uproar, but knowing what the NHS/Government can be like at times......

 

[Clip]

Im pretty sure those that have medical issues will be exempt from this - as there will be a histroy in their records to show that they didnt just eat fatty foods

If people are fond of the microwave then here are some quick and easy recipes

 

[Tetchytyke]

Takes a bit of education there - fruit juice is full of sugar.

I totally agree. But it is something that is frequently missed, most recently with Jamie Oliver's hare-brained idea to tax "sugary drinks".

If one taxes Coca Cola then one is persuading people on to fruit juice, which has more sugar and more calories. It's got a bit more nutrition too, sure, but that doesn't change the weight implications.

Bananas are very high in calories compared with most fruit, FWIW, and should probably be classed alongside biscuits.

Again I agree. My point is that fruit = good, biscuits = bad isn't always the case.

but even when I was on the dole and didn't have a penny to my name (and was fighting off the bailiffs/CCJ's and bankruptcy) i still bought fresh food. It was cheaper and went further. The market was great as was the local butcher and the market meat wagon.

Learning a few recipes really isn't hard. The internet is full of them. I will be honest being properly skint is fairly good for self discipline. Chuck in a key meter and you will soon learn the value of money management. Sitting in the cold and the dark is not fun.

I'm a huge believer in batch cooking, but it also requires key equipment that not everybody has.

When I was in a bedsit studio flat in North London, I had an ice box in a below-counter fridge which could hold about three meals. I was lucky: some of the flats I saw didn't even have the ice box in the fridge. Some didn't even have an oven. One didn't even have an electric hob. Even basic saucepans cost £10 these days, which is a lot when your dole is £43 a week.

If you don't have a freezer and you don't have an oven, and you don't have a hob and you don't have a saucepan, then life gets a bit tricky.

Most people do, of course, but not everyone.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why do you think people eat badly? Personal preference to have no money?

I think it is mostly to do with self-esteem and/or mental health issues, rather than not actually knowing how to eat properly or make a healthy dinner.

I am around 2 stone over my ideal weight myself, but it is coming off thanks to bike rides and meal planning. It can be done with proper motivation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You paint the situation as very black and white, when in reality it isn't.

Sure the example you give is clear cut. But what we are realising now is that a lot of the "healthy" options we are given by food companies / supermarkets are actually no better for you than the "less healthy" versions of the product. Yoghurts, drinks etc are really good examples of this. Especially when it comes to sugar. For years the advise was fat is bad for you, so people started buying low fat versions of foods. But now we know that quite often the low fat versions are not better for you because of the added sugar.

And there are plenty of examples of middle class parents giving their kids lots of fruit juice in their diet (which they thought was healthy) only the be shocked when they are told by the dentist that their kids teeth are in a horrible state.

The traffic light indicators are on most foods now so there is no excuse for people to claim they don't know what they are putting in their bodies. I accept (and indeed stated directly upthread) that it's not a black and white issue but it is not quite as complex and difficult as some people are making out.

 

[TheKnightWho]

but even when I was on the dole and didn't have a penny to my name (and was fighting off the bailiffs/CCJ's and bankruptcy) i still bought fresh food. It was cheaper and went further. The market was great as was the local butcher and the market meat wagon.

Learning a few recipes really isn't hard. The internet is full of them. I will be honest being properly skint is fairly good for self discipline. Chuck in a key meter and you will soon learn the value of money management. Sitting in the cold and the dark is not fun.

Yes but bad eating is a downward spiral: poor nutrition hits motivation, creativity and earnings. All things needed to get up and actually make your own food. When you're struggling to earn, the last thing a lot of people want to do is spend an hour or two cooking (and yes, some might enjoy it - many don't).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think it is mostly to do with self-esteem and/or mental health issues, rather than not actually knowing how to eat properly or make a healthy dinner.

And which demographics are those most common in?

 

[AlterEgo]

And which demographics are those most common in?

I don't understand why demographics matter. It is a fact that many people have poor self esteem, or mental health issues. That is an explanation but not an excuse for poor nutrition - and I can speak as someone who got very, very lazy with nutrition. I worked antisocial shifts for two years and ate badly. It is a downward spiral - eat crap, feel crap, eat more crap.

My fault, and mine alone.

It is not an education issue - it is a motivational issue. Get off your bums and go for a run, or a swim.

I will not feel sorry for anyone else, because feeling sorry for myself didn't fix my problem.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I don't understand why demographics matter. It is a fact that many people have poor self esteem, or mental health issues. That is an explanation but not an excuse for poor nutrition - and I can speak as someone who got very, very lazy with nutrition. I worked antisocial shifts for two years and ate badly. It is a downward spiral - eat crap, feel crap, eat more crap.

My fault, and mine alone.

It is not an education issue - it is a motivational issue. Get off your bums and go for a run, or a swim.

I will not feel sorry for anyone else, because feeling sorry for myself didn't fix my problem.

We're talking about people who don't have very much money. That is a demographic.

And yes it is an excuse for poor nutrition, because it's a rut that people get stuck in. Congratulations that it didn't happen to you, but it's ridiculous to expect everyone to have the same drive as you when the evidence is clear that isn't the case.

 

[AlterEgo]

We're talking about people who don't have very much money. That is a demographic.

And yes it is an excuse for poor nutrition, because it's a rut that people get stuck in. Congratulations that it didn't happen to you, but it's ridiculous to expect everyone to have the same drive as you when the evidence is clear that isn't the case.

It is an explanation, not an excuse. It has been clearly illustrated that you can eat cheaply. The vast majority of people with little money know that eating processed food is bad for you.

It is not ridiculous to expect other people to have the same drive to solve their own problems. I'm pretty centre-left wing, all things told, but the key to life is really getting off your backside and making an active choice to improve things.

Eating poorly and getting fat *did* happen to me, and like most of the problems I've had in my life I am fixing it myself without intervention from well-meaning students who want to feel sorry for the unfortunate.

I will always gladly extend the hand of help and sympathy to those less fortunate, but only if they stop thinking they're a victim of circumstances. Life is too short for that. There are improvements to be made. Make them now.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It is an explanation, not an excuse. It has been clearly illustrated that you can eat cheaply. The vast majority of people with little money know that eating processed food is bad for you.

It is not ridiculous to expect other people to have the same drive to solve their own problems. I'm pretty centre-left wing, all things told, but the key to life is really getting off your backside and making an active choice to improve things.

Eating poorly and getting fat *did* happen to me, and like most of the problems I've had in my life I am fixing it myself without intervention from well-meaning students who want to feel sorry for the unfortunate.

I will always gladly extend the hand of help and sympathy to those less fortunate, but only if they stop thinking they're a victim of circumstances. Life is too short for that. There are improvements to be made. Make them now.

Knowing in an abstract sense has very little bearing on people's capability to do anything about it. There is an epidemic of mental illness, and motivational issues are particularly pertinent at the moment.

Do you think people are just choosing to be healthy? Why do you think they don't do anything about it?

 

[PHILIPE]

I don't think many people who are obese would ever change their habits unless an illness came along and hit them and made them realise. I don't think many of them are au fait with day to day news so don't pick up on warnings.

 

[AlterEgo]

Knowing in an abstract sense has very little bearing on people's capability to do anything about it. There is an epidemic of mental illness, and motivational issues are particularly pertinent at the moment.

Do you think people are just choosing to be healthy? Why do you think they don't do anything about it?

I assume that's a typo and you mean "unhealthy".

Haven't I explained twice why I think people make unhealthy choices? Self-esteem, and mental health issues. That said, every time you eat a KFC it is a *choice*, and almost everyone in Britain knows that is not a healthy choice (or at least is something do be done in moderation). nobody does this blindly, and realising this is a conscious choice that you have the power to change is the first step in living more healthily.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I assume that's a typo and you mean "unhealthy".

Haven't I explained twice why I think people make unhealthy choices? Self-esteem, and mental health issues. That said, every time you eat a KFC it is a *choice*, and almost everyone in Britain knows that is not a healthy choice (or at least is something do be done in moderation). nobody does this blindly, and realising this is a conscious choice that you have the power to change is the first step in living more healthily.

Yes you have. And as I said those issues are much more prominent in poorer demographics, which was my point.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes you have. And as I said those issues are much more prominent in poorer demographics, which was my point.

Then, we agree on that material fact. Those issues are more prominent among people with less money.

So what?

 

[DarloRich]

I don't think many people who are obese would ever change their habits unless an illness came along and hit them and made them realise. I don't think many of them are au fait with day to day news so don't pick up on warnings.

what are you talking about? Are you suggesting that obese people are stupid?

 

[meridian2]

There are medical reaons for people becoming obese, certain medications have side effects which increase the appetite, but more often that not, a simple visit to one's GP, then to a dietician, is all that is needed.
Unless a GP, a dietician and all are agreed that bariatric surgery is a last resort, then this is a sensible decision. Most hospitals that have 'obese clinics' will actively encourage the patient to lose weight, or more accurately to lose BMI, before gastric bands etc are considered.
I'm obese, largely due to lifestyle choices and largely due to medication side effects, but I was discouraged from pursuing the surgery route and encouraged to see a dietician, to change my modus vivendi, and to look at ways to exercise more. I can understand if people whoa re impoverished cannot afford to see a GP, but it is more likely that they will be seen by dieticians rather than have any surgical procedures.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

what are you talking about? Are you suggesting that obese people are stupid?

Dawn French was not the same shape that she grew to when she was at the start of her career and money problems had not been one thing to concern her in those days

However recent pictures of her in 2016 shows what can be achieved.

 

[TheKnightWho]

what are you talking about? Are you suggesting that obese people are stupid?

I imagine he has a very specific sort of person in mind - those from Benefits Street or some such.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes but bad eating is a downward spiral: poor nutrition hits motivation, creativity and earnings. All things needed to get up and actually make your own food. When you're struggling to earn, the last thing a lot of people want to do is spend an hour or two cooking (and yes, some might enjoy it - many don't).

The vast majority of stuff I cook for myself takes 10-15 minutes if that - no longer than making a microwaved ready meal. And, as I noted, often the outcome is one portion and three DIY ready meals.