Do We Really Need Ticket Offices?

[AnonymousUser1]

I think the idea that the OP is getting at is the same as the one that London Underground have — have an option on TVMs that only staff can access that unlocks all the features formerly only available in a ticket office, then move staff out of the office to wander round and assist people who look like they are having problems, effectively using the machines for them. This would obviously include disabled passengers/elderly passengers/foreign tourists, and people wanting to buy tickets not available from the public TVM interface.

I'm still yet to be convinced entirely that this is a bad idea, though I can imagine it could be hard in some circumstances to attract the attention of a member of staff. I've still not needed to use London Underground's new system in practice.

it's also not dissimilar to the modus operandi of self service and self scan in supermarkets - straightforward transactions are entirely automated but assistance is avaialbe on request and mandated for certain actions ( booze, meds, knives etc in the shop setting )

 

[Llanigraham]

That of course is entirely achievable - look at SBB or Nederlandse Spoorwegen's machines. And in Italy they manage to cope with compulsory reservations and quota-priced services, and in Germany with train category and route specific pricing. It really isn't hard at all.



Both of those can be improved. You can fit two narrow-form TVMs in the space of one ticket window. You can fit faster printers, particularly if we can move away from the credit-card-sized orange card onto different form factors, and/or fit multiple printers (perhaps three) into each machine.

FWIW, what I'd envisage for the future is (in addition to online ticketing):-

Small stations: two TVMs, one on each platform

Medium stations: a number of TVMs, perhaps five, in a central ticketing area by the entrance. One assistance window. Possibly a small fee (£1) for use of the window for things the TVM can do (a list would need to be defined) to keep it free.

Large stations: a bank of many, perhaps 20+, TVMs in a ticketing area plus a few dotted around the station. A travel centre with perhaps 5-6 sit-down desks and a take-a-number queueing system for those requiring detailed advice, again a fee would be chargeable for use of this if you made a request easily obtained from a TVM.

TVMs to have remote video assistance from a call centre. The remote assistance could make the TVM print a "you can't get that here" voucher to remove the fee for listed products.

I would suggest a ticket office fee would be charged for:-
1. Anytime (Day) and (Super) Off Peak (Day) tickets originating from that station for travel on the same day.
2. Local area tickets like Travelcards, GMPTE Rangers etc.
3. Weekly and monthly season tickets up to a specified value.

A fee would not be charged for the purchase of tickets for say 8 or more people travelling together, nor for adding to Railcard groups as the existing groups need to be verified so TVMs won't allow the purchase.

A fee would not be charged for holders of DSB Railcards, nor for anyone stating that a disability prevents use of the TVM. (This might result in a few people lying, however the queues will still be kept down as most people would not sink as low as to lie about a disability).

Annual season tickets are a right nuisance, and I would abolish them to be replaced by a monthly direct debit season ticket available online, by telephone or by post. Season ticket refunds could move to being by post only, as without annuals the need for them would reduce massively.

In the event of there not being a certain specified percentage of TVMs in service, the fee would also be waived.

Euston's setup is not unlike my "large station" proposal, except for the fee, and by making the TVMs the obvious first thing to go to, with the office around the back, works well.

Wonderful.....................!
Now tell me how you are going to provide those facilities at Llanaber, or Dolau, or Suag Loaf, or any other remote rural station?
All fine in your usual urban-centric world but as usual you forget the rural elements of the UK!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is possible to have cash acceptance at TVMs. But very few people cannot have online-only "Electron" type cards these days (the kind where it is impossible to become overdrawn) and pre-pay cards are widely available. Cash is dying out, and I don't see that as a bad thing.

Under 16's can't have credit cards, how are they going to manage?

 

[AlterEgo]

Wonderful.....................!
Now tell me how you are going to provide those facilities at Llanaber, or Dolau, or Suag Loaf, or any other remote rural station?

All fine in your usual urban-centric world but as usual you forget the rural elements of the UK!

They don't have booking offices anyway, so...?

 

[GarethJohn]

The Dutch have a simplified fare system where all you require is a Chipkart, instead of books of tickets and receipts.
Cant we have a nationwide integrated Card with your local Bus/Tram/Metro travel card with ID, Railcards and tickets loaded onto them and be able to top up as you travel in a new regions services?
Until fares become simplified enough so that everyone can use a Ticket machine quickly and they can become available in local shops as well as Stations, then Station/on train staff selling them will be needed .
I also do not think it's fair to penalise someone for not using a ticket machine when it's the only option available. If trained Staff struggle to understand the ticket complexities what chance to novice passengers have?
If TOC'S expect you to buy its tickets and make it to difficult to find the cheapest option in reasonable time from a TVM, then they should staff the machines to ''teach'' passengers how to use them. Or make it as easy as possible in the first place.

 

[Dave1987]

Wow I cannot believe there are people who believe the internet is more secure than using your bank card in person. And I cannot believe some of you believe that TOC's are 'pandering to peoples insecurities' by allowing them to purchase a ticket in person at a ticket office. The people who I know who have been the victim of fraud were all done on the internet where their details had been used to purchase stuff on the internet.

All this talk about closures of ticket offices reminds me of going into my bank recently when I was encouraged to use a machine in the branch. I politely refused saying I go into the branch to see a member of staff, not use a machine. The supervisor said they had had many similar comments from other customers and were having to hire extra staff to cover the ones they hadn't replaced.

 

[ainsworth74]

TBH I'd abolish Weekend First and replace it with First Class Off Peak fares at a reasonable markup (around 1.5 to 1.6x). Problem solved.

What a completely absurd idea! The price rise would be enormous and would probably end up being revenue negative for the TOCs as I doubt many people would be willing to pay so much more to travel first class compared with the very reasonable Weekend First rates that are available. This isn't even a question of complexity. Weekend First is perhaps one of the simplest products available!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wonderful.....................!
Now tell me how you are going to provide those facilities at Llanaber, or Dolau, or Suag Loaf, or any other remote rural station?
All fine in your usual urban-centric world but as usual you forget the rural elements of the UK!

Llanaber, Dolau and Sugar Loaf don't have ticket offices either. There is, I guess, one more category to add - "very small" = no facilities. But that has little to do with the discussion.

Under 16's can't have credit cards, how are they going to manage?

They can have online-authorised debit cards and prepaid cards. But that's neither here nor there; TVMs can accept cash.

 

[AlterEgo]

Wow I cannot believe there are people who believe the internet is more secure than using your bank card in person. And I cannot believe some of you believe that TOC's are 'pandering to peoples insecurities' by allowing them to purchase a ticket in person at a ticket office. The people who I know who have been the victim of fraud were all done on the internet where their details had been used to purchase stuff on the internet.

The plural of anecdote is not data, or fact.

Also, while the purchases are done online by the fraudsters, it's not usually where they get the card details from. They get them by skimming, or covert uses of cameras in establishments or at ATMs, or by social engineering, or simply by wholesale theft.

The actual purchasing of goods over the internet is very very secure unless you're using some very shady retailer.

It is really naive to think your card is safer on your person, being handed to people you don't know and put into machines you don't know, than being sent encrypted on a HTTPS site.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What a completely absurd idea! The price rise would be enormous and would probably end up being revenue negative for the TOCs as I doubt many people would be willing to pay so much more to travel first class compared with the very reasonable Weekend First rates that are available.

Are you sure? On VTWC Weekend First (with the new price structure) runs at roughly a quarter of the off-peak return, thus fitting perfectly with that multiplier. On some slightly shorter journeys e.g. from MKC, it's actually rather expensive.

 

[Dave1987]

The plural of anecdote is not data, or fact.

Also, while the purchases are done online by the fraudsters, it's not usually where they get the card details from. They get them by skimming, or covert uses of cameras in establishments or at ATMs, or by social engineering, or simply by wholesale theft.

The actual purchasing of goods over the internet is very very secure unless you're using some very shady retailer.

It is really naive to think your card is safer on your person, being handed to people you don't know and put into machines you don't know, than being sent encrypted on a HTTPS site.

I never hand my bank card to anyone. Current POS chip and pin machines the person who is serving you never touches you card as you put your card into the machine yourself. I have some very good and expensive security software on my computer to prevent fraud but that doesn't stop me being nervous putting my card details into an internet browser. I use PayPal whenever I can to ensure the merchant does not know my card details if at all possible.

I certainly do not believe the internet is anywhere near as secure as you believe it is.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I certainly do not believe the internet is anywhere near as secure as you believe it is.

Well, the fact is that it is, so you are worrying yourself unnecessarily.

Be streetwise, but there is no need to shut yourself out of things by way of fear.

 

[AlterEgo]

I never hand my bank card to anyone. Current POS chip and pin machines the person who is serving you never touches you card as you put your card into the machine yourself. I have some very good and expensive security software on my computer to prevent fraud but that doesn't stop me being nervous putting my card details into an internet browser. I use PayPal whenever I can to ensure the merchant does not know my card details if at all possible.

I certainly do not believe the internet is anywhere near as secure as you believe it is.

These beliefs aren't fact or reality I'm afraid. And they're certainly not a reason to suggest the railway shouldn't be trying to push more sales online.

 

[najaB]

A valid concern, though guards often are!

They are, but it's harder to do a 'snatch and run' on a train as compared to a station concourse. After all, if the guard doesn't open the doors they aren't going anywhere.

 

[transmanche]

I'm not comfortable with the idea of staff walking around with potentially large sums of money on their person.

There would be no reason for staff to walk around with large sums of money, they would simply deposit it in the office; or as on LU, fed into the TVM as part of the transaction.

 

[HH]

Eventually there will be no ticket offices. Only those of Ostrich-like vision can deny this self-evident truth. It won't be overnight, but the writing is on the wall.

 

[Dave1987]

These beliefs aren't fact or reality I'm afraid. And they're certainly not a reason to suggest the railway shouldn't be trying to push more sales online.

They can encourage sales online as much as they want to. Forcing people to purchase through the internet is a totally different kettle of fish. Being told by people on an internet forum that the internet is totally secure is kinda ironic to be honest. Long may ticket offices stay open and people be served by a human being.

 

[WestCoast]

I never hand my bank card to anyone. Current POS chip and pin machines the person who is serving you never touches you card as you put your card into the machine yourself. I have some very good and expensive security software on my computer to prevent fraud but that doesn't stop me being nervous putting my card details into an internet browser. I use PayPal whenever I can to ensure the merchant does not know my card details if at all possible.

I certainly do not believe the internet is anywhere near as secure as you believe it is.

Slightly off-topic, but I'd rather buy directly through the merchant with a credit card for higher value items as you're then covered under the staturory consumer protection which the card provider must offer should the items not arrive/break/the merchant goes bust. If you pay through PayPal your contract is with them and you don't have the same level of consumer protection.

 

[Dr Hoo]

One really useful feature of TVMs is that these days they can easily be configured to offer service and menus in a wide range of languages, selectable by a 'flag' symbol.

With the best will the world a lone booking clerk is never going to be able to provide the same degree of consistency in a multitude of tongues, especially when stuck behind a glass screen.

 

[AlterEgo]

They can encourage sales online as much as they want to. Forcing people to purchase through the internet is a totally different kettle of fish. Being told by people on an internet forum that the internet is totally secure is kinda ironic to be honest. Long may ticket offices stay open and people be served by a human being.

Being told by people on an internet forum that the internet is *not* secure is some orders of magnitude more ironic.

I was very careful not to say "totally" secure (in fact I specifically said it was not an iron wall), and I note that nobody else implied it either, so it's naughty of you to suggest I, or anyone else did say that.

Is 1987 your birth year or the year you prefer to live in?

Fear the change brother.

 

[HH]

One really useful feature of TVMs is that these days they can easily be configured to offer service and menus in a wide range of languages, selectable by a 'flag' symbol.

With the best will the world a lone booking clerk is never going to be able to provide the same degree of consistency in a multitude of tongues, especially when stuck behind a glass screen.

No, but if he speaks loudly and slowly then "johnny foreigner" usually understands [said in a proper Pathe News voice].

 

[Dave1987]

Being told by people on an internet forum that the internet is *not* secure is some orders of magnitude more ironic.

I was very careful not to say "totally" secure (in fact I specifically said it was not an iron wall), and I note that nobody else implied it either, so it's naughty of you to suggest I, or anyone else did say that.

Is 1987 your birth year or the year you prefer to live in?

Fear the change brother.

Yes I very much fear a world where no one ever interacts with another human being and is solely engrossed in their smartphones. It worries me that people are positively gleeful at the prospect of ticket offices closing, people potentially losing their jobs and passengers forced to interact with a machine that they may or may not sell them what they are after or at the cheapest price they could get it for. I gather you are one of those people who is totally engrossed in your smart phone day in day out and never has a proper conversation with anyone else?

 

[The Ham]

At present ticket offices are still needed, however I can see (if technology is sorted) that there could be an argument that ticket offices could be closed.

You would need something that enabled you to do something like:

present smart card/credit card
welcome back [Name]
- what can I do for you today...
- I notice your season ticket is due for renewal soon...
...select one of the following
- repeat a recent journey
- undertake a new journey from here
- undertake a new journey from a station on a ticket you already hold
- confirm start of pre booked journey
- obtain season ticket
- renew season ticket
- purchase a rail card to be allocated to your card

it then follows through your purchase allowing you to buy tickets from where you have a valid ticket for travel, either for now or to pre book rail travel.

All that is assuming that you don't want to manage your touch in touch out online with prices being set based on how much travelling you do by train (not just on one route as is the case with season tickets).

 

[philthetube]

Two points from further back, I cant remember a British airways ticket office in Watford so I dont remember it closing. I do remember travel agents and they are still there.

Dispense with weekend first on trains and you will end up with trains with empty first class which are leaving people behind. I, and I am sure many others upgrade when there are no standard seats available.



Back on topic, imagine a bank of five ticket machines on a station, one not working, one with my 94 year old mother mother trying to buy a disabled railcard, when she eventually works out how to do it it takes her five minutes to find her pin number in her diary, one with someone trying journey options for a cheap fare to Scotland, then trying to make reservations, and one being refilled/reloaded by staff who are constantly being hassled by irate passengers causing the job to take five times as long as it should.

You only need to stand at a ticket office window, you can be sure that any transaction which takes longer than 30 seconds at a ticket office would take far longer if it was being done at a machine.

 

[najaB]

There would be no reason for staff to walk around with large sums of money, they would simply deposit it in the office; or as on LU, fed into the TVM as part of the transaction.

Is it actually practical for them to go to the office after every transaction and to make change? And it doesn't have to be thousands to make them a target, even £50 or £60 is enough to make them vulnerable to snatch attacks.

 

[AlterEgo]

Yes I very much fear a world where no one ever interacts with another human being and is solely engrossed in their smartphones. It worries me that people are positively gleeful at the prospect of ticket offices closing, people potentially losing their jobs and passengers forced to interact with a machine that they may or may not sell them what they are after or at the cheapest price they could get it for. I gather you are one of those people who is totally engrossed in your smart phone day in day out and never has a proper conversation with anyone else?

Er, no... :roll: My whole job is built on face to face meetings.

Further irony that this discussion is happening on an anonymised message board...

I don't think anyone is gleeful but I certainly do envisage a ticket office-free future in the next 25 years. It probably doesn't mean we are heading towards a time where nobody ever talks to anyone, but it does mean that jobs will be displaced or lost, and that society will have to change. Society changes all the time and people change jobs all the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Two points from further back, I cant remember a British airways ticket office in Watford so I dont remember it closing. I do remember travel agents and they are still there.

Who said anything about Watford? Did I miss this?

Do you think that the number of people using bricks and mortar travel agencies to buy standalone airline tickets has gone down substantially, or not? Because I know for a fact they have...

 

[The Ham]

Yes I very much fear a world where no one ever interacts with another human being and is solely engrossed in their smartphones. It worries me that people are positively gleeful at the prospect of ticket offices closing, people potentially losing their jobs and passengers forced to interact with a machine that they may or may not sell them what they are after or at the cheapest price they could get it for. I gather you are one of those people who is totally engrossed in your smart phone day in day out and never has a proper conversation with anyone else?

As someone who can see technology improving to such a point that for most day to day interactions with regards to rail travel human interface isn't required I would like to point out that I am not gleeful at staff losing their jobs.

I would say, however, in the last 20 years my local station has gone from a one window ticket office with a basic TVM (limited hard push button to select one of about 30 tickets) to one with a one window ticket office with three fairly modern TVM's (destination finder, pre booked ticket pick up and one with video interaction with staff). As such it is likely that with increasing passenger numbers that even with increasing TVM numbers, their ability to issue a wider range of tickets and their speed that there would likely be a need for staff at the majority of stations that have them for some time to come.

 

[maniacmartin]

Indeed. 3D Secure has been an excellent advance here.

Slightly off-topic, but 3D Secure is total smoke and mirrors and gives a false sense of security. Read this scathing report from researchers at Cambridge University. It was introduced as an excuse move liability away from the banks.

(a) your bank shows you something specific you expect when you pay by card that is different from bank to bank, so would be difficult for fraudsters to replicate

A dodgy website could just proxy through to the real site to find the thing to show you. Most banks subcontract the web interface to third parties, with weird URLs and domain names and SSL certificates registered to companies no customer has heard of, so a fraudster could just register another weird domain name and no-one would notice. Why not have them as subdomains of yourbank.com or visa.com etc? Most sites also show the page in an iframe where you can't even view the URL easily even if you wanted to check.

(b) a piece of information not written down anywhere is required to complete a cardholder-not-present transaction

Many banks allow you to reset your 3D Secure password on the very page where you enter it, sometimes with basic information such as date of birth. If it's your first purchase you don't even need to enter a password, and can just set it there and then.

For credit cards issued to high spenders, a lot of card issuers set Secure 3D doesn't even ask for any information, and just redirects straight through. Presumably the loss due to fraud overall is less than the loss of people aborting the transaction as it's too much hassle

 

[transmanche]

They can encourage sales online as much as they want to. Forcing people to purchase through the internet is a totally different kettle of fish.

That's fine, so long as people who want to use a ticket office are prepared to pay for it. I'd be happy if there was a £1 fee to use the ticket office, a la NS in the Netherlands. (Incidentally very few TVMs in the Netherlands accept standard Visa cards, most only accept 'V Pay' branded Visa cards. They still charge the fee if you have to use the ticket office because UK banks don't brand their cards 'V Pay'.)

It's time to think of new ways of doing business. For example, ATOC could contract Post Offices to sell Railcards. I've already suggested that ENCTS cards could be used to store Senior/Disabled Railcard details - as Nexus do for 'Metro Gold Cards'.

In fact Nexus Metro stations have never had ticket offices, but then the ticketing system is fairly simple. It reinforces that NR ticketing system needs to change - and yes that might mean the loss of flexibility in some instances (e.g. open returns being replaced by two singles, so less flexibility to break journeys) but new types of flexibility are developed ('best fare guarantees', monthly billing, part-time seasons and so forth)

As for those people who don't consider themselves 'IT literate', there are plenty of ways to get free training. Even one of the high street banks offers IT help and training. Libraries offer free internet access for those who don't have broadband at home and plenty of places offer free wifi... even stations. Heck, just the other day I bought an mTicket using an app on my phone whilst at the station because the TVM couldn't sell me the ticket I wanted until after 10am. (But that does highlight that TVMs do need to improve.) With more government services moving online, people will just have to get used to doing business online whether they like it or not.

 

[The Ham]

Back on topic, imagine a bank of five ticket machines on a station, one not working, one with my 94 year old mother mother trying to buy a disabled railcard, when she eventually works out how to do it it takes her five minutes to find her pin number in her diary, one with someone trying journey options for a cheap fare to Scotland, then trying to make reservations, and one being refilled/reloaded by staff who are constantly being hassled by irate passengers causing the job to take five times as long as it should.

You only need to stand at a ticket office window, you can be sure that any transaction which takes longer than 30 seconds at a ticket office would take far longer if it was being done at a machine.

Conversely, imagine a station with one ticket office window which due to staff shortages has been closed for about 80% of the days it should have been open over the last two months.

Technology is always going to have faults but then so will systems that rely on humans.

With some improvements Technology could overcome a few of those problems at the 5 TVM's you listed.

TVM 1 - still not working, but being fixed (see TVM 5)

TVM 2 - Contactless card payments would enable the purchase of a disabled rail card (£20) without the need for a PIN. Also as the railcard could be linked to a smart card or credit card the renewal process could be [presents card] "Welcome back Mrs Tube, did you know your railcard is about to expire, do you want to renew it Yes/No" "We are about to take £20 from your contactless payment card for your railcard renewal, are you sure No/Yes" "Your railcard now expires on 10th September 2017. Is there anything else you need today?"

TVM 3 - The person semi regularly travels to Scotland so the TVM gives them options on how to travel there on their start up screen rather than having to find the station by typing it in. As such they are on the seat selection page in about 30 seconds rather than about 2 minutes, meaning that they have already finished their transaction.

TVM 5 - most tickets are linked to smart tickets or credit cards, so there is a lot less need for staff to reload ticket stock (maybe something that is checked daily but could last for a week). As such they have more time to solve the problem on TVM 1 which wasn't working.

 

[philthetube]

Conversely, imagine a station with one ticket office window which due to staff shortages has been closed for about 80% of the days it should have been open over the last two months.

Technology is always going to have faults but then so will systems that rely on humans.

With some improvements Technology could overcome a few of those problems at the 5 TVM's you listed.

TVM 1 - still not working, but being fixed (see TVM 5)

TVM 2 - Contactless card payments would enable the purchase of a disabled rail card (£20) without the need for a PIN. Also as the railcard could be linked to a smart card or credit card the renewal process could be [presents card] "Welcome back Mrs Tube, did you know your railcard is about to expire, do you want to renew it Yes/No" "We are about to take £20 from your contactless payment card for your railcard renewal, are you sure No/Yes" "Your railcard now expires on 10th September 2017. Is there anything else you need today?"

TVM 3 - The person semi regularly travels to Scotland so the TVM gives them options on how to travel there on their start up screen rather than having to find the station by typing it in. As such they are on the seat selection page in about 30 seconds rather than about 2 minutes, meaning that they have already finished their transaction.

TVM 5 - most tickets are linked to smart tickets or credit cards, so there is a lot less need for staff to reload ticket stock (maybe something that is checked daily but could last for a week). As such they have more time to solve the problem on TVM 1 which wasn't working.

Good points but, the 80% argument holds no water, can be used for absolutely everything, eg your train has not run for 80% of the time due to staff shortage, not acceptable and should not happen in the case of ticket office or train.

Tvm 1 - the maintainer is 50 miles away fixing another one

tvm3 - they are not regular travellers

tvm5 - Can the machine sell railcards and link them to smartcards etc. without id. and does it sell smartcards