Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[asylumxl]

How do you know that the "far more important issues" aren't discussed as well? People complain that MPs are too remote yet if they take issues such as this which are obviously bothering their constituents they're apparently wasting time. They can't win.

I think you're reading a bit too much in to it. And did you click the link?

It was asked by the Labour MP for Nottingham South. Why would that bother her constituents? If it were somewhere served by Thameslink I could understand.

 

[phoenixcronin]

In my opinion fitting tables to standard class would make first class less different/less of an upgrade, which would make first class less worthwhile. I like the 700s the way they are

 

[James H]

I think you're reading a bit too much in to it. And did you click the link?

It was asked by the Labour MP for Nottingham South. Why would that bother her constituents? If it were somewhere served by Thameslink I could understand.

Lilian Greenwood was the shadow transport minister, hence her interest.

 

[asylumxl]

Lilian Greenwood was the shadow transport minister, hence her interest.

Still not her constituents is it?

As a user of Thameslink I'm more concerned about the robustness of the service than if there's bloody seat back tables. When the GN trains begin using the core I fear the service will fall apart in times of disruption.

 

[bramling]

Still not her constituents is it?

As a user of Thameslink I'm more concerned about the robustness of the service than if there's bloody seat back tables. When the GN trains begin using the core I fear the service will fall apart in times of disruption.

Agreed that the timetable / mixing of services is by far the biggest issue.

Personally actually I can manage without tables, although having said that they are still a feature I make spasmodic use of on the class 365/321, so the class 700 still represents a downgrade in offering compared to today. It's also an irritant that lack of tables means more chance of rubbish being left on the seats themselves.

What I find most unacceptable about these trains is the seating in general - uncomfortable, cramped and grossly inadequate legroom in the window seats, and the guaranteed greater likelihood that they won't turn up at the booked time compared to today.

 

[jon0844]

Still not her constituents is it?

As a user of Thameslink I'm more concerned about the robustness of the service than if there's bloody seat back tables. When the GN trains begin using the core I fear the service will fall apart in times of disruption.

It won't be too noticeable as GTR is preparing for a smooth transition by cancelling lots of services between now and 2018.

 

[bramling]

It won't be too noticeable as GTR is preparing for a smooth transition by cancelling lots of services between now and 2018.

And it definitely won't be noticeable for those who have found car is now a superior option!

(Door-to-door journey today quicker than train again this morning, and that's assuming the GTR train would have actually turned up!)

 

[Minstral25]

In my opinion fitting tables to standard class would make first class less different/less of an upgrade, which would make first class less worthwhile. I like the 700s the way they are

I'd like tables - they are useful when spending an hour in a train but far more important is leg room - standard class in the 700's is too small for long journeys

 

[AM9]

It's a mess-up that tables in some form or another weren't specified in the first place, on the 12-car trains at least. Even the 317s and 321s have something.

But they are what they are. The table issue will be quietly forgotten as soon as the full service is running. Any further hankering for them will be referred to a mid-life update. The Tories will have far bigger issues to think about if Brexit has started by 2019.

 

[bramling]

But they are what they are. The table issue will be quietly forgotten as soon as the full service is running. Any further hankering for them will be referred to a mid-life update. The Tories will have far bigger issues to think about if Brexit has started by 2019.

I'm not so sure the legroom issue will be so readily forgotten about - hard to forget when you're reminded about it every time you use one of these abominations which masquerade as trains.

Regardless of their importance (which differs from person to person), I've yet to read a convincing reason why they weren't specified in the first place. It may well turn out to be right that it may be too much hassle/expense to provide them retrospectively, but they should definitely have been specified at the start.

Not sure it will happen, but I would be quite happy if Brexit contributes to projected passenger growth figures not materialising, even better a reduction!

 

[asylumxl]

Regardless of their importance (which differs from person to person), I've yet to read a convincing reason why they weren't specified in the first place. It may well turn out to be right that it may be too much hassle/expense to provide them retrospectively, but they should definitely have been specified at the start.

Surely being cheapskates is a convincing reason? Or perhaps being obsessed with standing room, dwell times and weight?

Perhaps they didn't specify seat back tables as they expected people to occupy every unused space such as between other passengers legs, under the cantilevered seats, overhead racks etc. How could anyone stand between your legs if you had the table down?

I like to imagine somewhere in the DfT there's a man sitting in a straight jacket, rocking back & forth and muttering to himself, with various hand written equations covering the walls.

 

[bramling]

Surely being cheapskates is a convincing reason? Or perhaps being obsessed with standing room, dwell times and weight?

Perhaps they didn't specify seat back tables as they expected people to occupy every unused space such as between other passengers legs, under the cantilevered seats, overhead racks etc. How could anyone stand between your legs if you had the table down?

I like to imagine somewhere in the DfT there's a man sitting in a straight jacket, rocking back & forth and muttering to himself, with various hand written equations covering the walls.

Having experienced the seating, the thought can't help but cross the mind that the real reason was someone in DFT thinking "stuff the passengers wouldn't it be funny if I design a train that's as uncomfortable as possible". If so, they certainly did quite a good job of achieving that objective.

It's certainly not the interior I would have designed if I had to make an effort to attract custom, as opposed to a captive market / distress purchase.

 

[Mordac]

Surely being cheapskates is a convincing reason? Or perhaps being obsessed with standing room, dwell times and weight?

Perhaps they didn't specify seat back tables as they expected people to occupy every unused space such as between other passengers legs, under the cantilevered seats, overhead racks etc. How could anyone stand between your legs if you had the table down?

I like to imagine somewhere in the DfT there's a man sitting in a straight jacket, rocking back & forth and muttering to himself, with various hand written equations covering the walls.

So that's why the luggage racks are so big.

 

[jon0844]

There was a logical reason not to have tables on the trains when the core will be run more like a tube service than suburban metro.

Someone sits down in an aisle seat, gets out the laptop, plugs in, and then the person in the window asks if they can get off...

I think in the long run, this decision will be shown to be the right one. Or you have tip down tables that can be locked out of use in the core.

Maybe a more logical thing would have been a more simple cup holder and a little perch table that could still let someone get in/out?

 

[physics34]

In my opinion fitting tables to standard class would make first class less different/less of an upgrade, which would make first class less worthwhile. I like the 700s the way they are

but if that worked everywhere, it would be wholly wrong.

If you want a table pay for 1st class!! Outragous ;-0
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There was a logical reason not to have tables on the trains when the core will be run more like a tube service than suburban metro.

Someone sits down in an aisle seat, gets out the laptop, plugs in, and then the person in the window asks if they can get off...

I think in the long run, this decision will be shown to be the right one. Or you have tip down tables that can be locked out of use in the core.

Maybe a more logical thing would have been a more simple cup holder and a little perch table that could still let someone get in/out?

But outside of the core it isnt like a tube service.

Nothing wrong with seat back tables and small tables (like in 377/3s) in bay seats. WOuld be perfect.

 

[bramling]

There was a logical reason not to have tables on the trains when the core will be run more like a tube service than suburban metro.

Someone sits down in an aisle seat, gets out the laptop, plugs in, and then the person in the window asks if they can get off...

I think in the long run, this decision will be shown to be the right one. Or you have tip down tables that can be locked out of use in the core.

Maybe a more logical thing would have been a more simple cup holder and a little perch table that could still let someone get in/out?

OK, so provide fold-down tables for just the window seats?

The half tables on the class 321/365 don't really impede movement, and the trays on the 317s certainly don't. All this is better than .. nothing.

Meanwhile, instead of tables impeding access to & from the window seats, we'll see people sitting there because the window seats are too cramped. There have already been postings on here where people have intimated that they would take an aisle seat in preference to a window seat. If loading/unloading times were so important then legroom would have been increased, that's one good way of making it easier for people to get in and out of seats.

And, of course, if the proposals didn't specify such an intensive service through the core then loading times wouldn't be quite so much of a so-called issue. And this would reduce the timetable meltdown worries that are shared by even those who don't mind the trains.

 

[AM9]

... But outside of the core it isnt like a tube service.

In terms of 'tube like' operation consider that to be at least East Croydon to St Albans/Stevenage. All within 20-30 minutes of central London.

 

[bramling]

In terms of 'tube like' operation consider that to be at least East Croydon to St Albans/Stevenage. All within 20-30 minutes of central London.

You may well find that many people have chosen to live / moved away from London precisely to get *away* from a 'tube like' operation.

My new neighbour certainly did. He was attracted to the area by the comfortable and reliable Great Northern service, and was horrified to hear of the Thameslink Programme.

 

[physics34]

OK, so provide fold-down tables for just the window seats?

The half tables on the class 321/365 don't really impede movement, and the trays on the 317s certainly don't. All this is better than .. nothing.

Meanwhile, instead of tables impeding access to & from the window seats, we'll see people sitting there because the window seats are too cramped. There have already been postings on here where people have intimated that they would take an aisle seat in preference to a window seat. If loading/unloading times were so important then legroom would have been increased, that's one good way of making it easier for people to get in and out of seats.

And, of course, if the proposals didn't specify such an intensive service through the core then loading times wouldn't be quite so much of a so-called issue. And this would reduce the timetable meltdown worries that are shared by even those who don't mind the trains.

As ive said, lets wait for them to start on the East Grinstead and Littlehampton services....... commuters there will be raging
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In terms of 'tube like' operation consider that to be at least East Croydon to St Albans/Stevenage. All within 20-30 minutes of central London.

but, once again, its a downgrade on the comfort levels of now.

 

[bramling]

As ive said, lets wait for them to start on the East Grinstead and Littlehampton services....... commuters there will be raging

I think you can add certain parts of the GN side to that too. The likes of Welwyn North, Hitchin, St Neots, Huntingdon, Letchworth, Baldock, Royston most certainly won't be impressed. Some people may be fortunate that they will have the option of a 365 or Electrostar at certain times, but many won't under current plans - especially off-peak who are the biggest losers from all of this.

 

[AM9]

... but, once again, its a downgrade on the comfort levels of now.

But more importantly, it's a massive upgrade on capacity and (probably) journey times. There will always be winners and losers. Those that see the change as that much worse can make their own decisions. Compare at the passenger entry and exit figures for stations along the various Thameslink routes in 2020 with previous years and I doubt that there will be an exodus of the kind that some here seem to imagine.

 

[Hadders]

But more importantly, it's a massive upgrade on capacity and (probably) journey times. There will always be winners and losers. Those that see the change as that much worse can make their own decisions. Compare at the passenger entry and exit figures for stations along the various Thameslink routes in 2020 with previous years and I doubt that there will be an exodus of the kind that some here seem to imagine.

The increase in Off Peak frequencies is welcome but a question I keep asking (and haven't yet had an answer to) is how many more services will run in the peak?

Places like Arlesey only get a 30 minute service even in the peak so if it all goes wrong south of the river people won't be happy.

 

[D365]

The increase in Off Peak frequencies is welcome but a question I keep asking (and haven't yet had an answer to) is how many more services will run in the peak?

Places like Arlesey only get a 30 minute service even in the peak so if it all goes wrong south of the river people won't be happy.

Peterborough branch won't be getting any additional services, the only change is that the all-day 2tph service will be running to Horsham via Thameslink.

 

[bramling]

Peterborough branch won't be getting any additional services, the only change is that the all-day 2tph service will be running to Horsham via Thameslink.

So a wonderful upgrade. Extra length which isn't needed off-peak and is already there in the peaks, uncomfortable trains with fewer facilities, and the likelihood of long waits if your planned service is delayed in Sussex.

 

[class387]

Peterborough branch won't be getting any additional services, the only change is that the all-day 2tph service will be running to Horsham via Thameslink.

Would both be semi-fast (non stop Stevenage to Finsbury Park) or will one call at Knebworth, Welwyn North, WGC, Hatfield and Potters Bar like at present?

 

[Minstral25]

In terms of 'tube like' operation consider that to be at least East Croydon to St Albans/Stevenage. All within 20-30 minutes of central London.

It's 13 minutes non-stop on a fast train doing 90mph from London Bridge to East Croydon and 20 minutes non-stop from St Pancras to St Albans - how many tubes do that?

The Core is not going to be a full tube like operation, it will be mostly passengers from outside London arriving at their destination and new passengers for outside London catching their train.

 

[transmanche]

It's a mess-up that tables in some form or another weren't specified in the first place, on the 12-car trains at least. Even the 317s and 321s have something.

Why is it a 'mess-up'? It's not as if they just forgot to specify tables. It was a deliberate decision in order to speed boarding/alighting in the core.

It has been decided not to have tables in standard class. Passenger research for the rail watchdog, Passenger Focus and London TravelWatch showed that people recognised the main priority was to maximise capacity. Seat tables are a nice to have but they also slow people down getting on and off trains – and we’ll have just 30 seconds to get people on and off these new trains in central London.

Our priority is to get more people from A to B as quickly and as reliably as possible. These new trains will give us more carriages and more capacity and much better reliability than existing trains, which is what people want.

Source: Thameslink Programme wesbite.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Lilian Greenwood was the shadow transport minister, hence her interest.

Still not her constituents is it?

Er, I guess you don't understand how Parliament works.

I find it kind of sad such an issue is even discussed in parliament. There are far more important issues to discuss in my opinion.

It was a written answer to a written question.

 

[Dent]

Why is it a 'mess-up'? It's not as if they just forgot to specify tables. It was a deliberate decision in order to speed boarding/alighting in the core.



Source: Thameslink Programme wesbite.

Are passengers required to remain seated until the train has stopped in the station?

Does the train wait until all passengers are seated before moving off?

If the answer to both these questions is "no" then how does the lack of tables make any difference at all to boarding times?

 

[43074]

Would both be semi-fast (non stop Stevenage to Finsbury Park) or will one call at Knebworth, Welwyn North, WGC, Hatfield and Potters Bar like at present?

They will both be non-stop Stevenage to Finsbury Park, the half hourly service at Knebworth & Welwyn North and fast services from Welwyn, Hatfield & Potters Bar to Central London will be provided by a half hourly Cambridge service, all stops from Welwyn Garden City and starting from Maidstone East IIRC.

 

[transmanche]

If the answer to both these questions is "no" then how does the lack of tables make any difference at all to boarding times?

Have you ever been on a train?