Settle & Carlisle closure: Was freight diverted and how many passengers affected?

[chorleyjeff]

I am spending this week inthe Western Yorkshire Dales.
Yesterday I saw a passenger train near Garsdale which reminded me the through line hasbeen closed for a while.
My questionis whether any of the Freight trains that used to use the full stretch from Carlisle to Hellifield have been cancelled rather than diverting and has diverting caused serious operational difficulties?
Also about how many passengers a day are inconvenienced by not being able to traverse the whole line rather than use alternative routes.
It seems that having a lovely little used main line is a bit of a luxury when hard pressed lines need investment. Treating it as one or two long single line slow freight might be a better balance between taxpayer and railway but would is that heresy ?

 

[najaB]

It seems that having a lovely little used main line is a bit of a luxury when hard pressed lines need investment.

I don't know if over a million journeys a year counts as 'lightly used'.

 

[driver9000]

A lot of the traffic seemed to be coal which dried up when the government brought in the taxes on carbon last year so I'm not sure how much had already been lost.

The Clitheroe cement tanks run via the WCML as does the Chirk logs.

 

[thenorthern]

There was some Gypsum trains from Drax to Kirkby Thore Gypsum Works but I don't know if they still run. I know there wasn't any freight on the line from the 1970s until 1994 which mean in 1981 British Rail said that it wasn't economical to have a 72 mile line served by 2 trains per day and only 3 stations (Carlisle, Appleby and Settle). So in 1981 they issued closure notices for the line in 1983 but in the end it stayed open.

 

[RichmondCommu]

There was some Gypsum trains from Drax to Kirkby Thore Gypsum Works but I don't know if they still run. I know there wasn't any freight on the line from the 1970s until 1994 which mean in 1981 British Rail said that it wasn't economical to have a 72 mile line served by 2 trains per day and only 3 stations (Carlisle, Appleby and Settle). So in 1981 they issued closure notices for the line in 1983 but in the end it stayed open.

I've a feeling that the trains from Kirkby Thore are not running at the moment as the latest Freightmaster book (I don't subscribe to the freight timetable) suggests that the only freight currently running are the occasional aggregate services from Ribblehead and the daily services from the Arcow quarry which is near Horton.

Incidentally you might be interested to know that freight was running from Warcop (MOD) well into the 1980's, along with the occasional ballast train from Ribblehead. Class 25s, 40s and 45s could all be seen operating these services.

 

[Condor7]

The Kirkby Thore (Newbiggin) to Hull train is still running Tuesday to Friday as required arriving fron Hull around 5 or 6 in the morning and leaving around 10 to 11am

 

[70014IronDuke]

I am spending this week inthe Western Yorkshire Dales.
Yesterday I saw a passenger train near Garsdale which reminded me the through line hasbeen closed for a while.
My questionis whether any of the Freight trains that used to use the full stretch from Carlisle to Hellifield have been cancelled rather than diverting and has diverting caused serious operational difficulties?
Also about how many passengers a day are inconvenienced by not being able to traverse the whole line rather than use alternative routes. ......?

Not sure what your question is exactly (to me your 'question' in nonsensical).

Perhaps you want to ask: how many people are inconvenienced because they are unable to use alternative routes?

Well, there is/are alternatives for anyone needing to go to wherever they need to go, by a combination of the current train service and connecting buses.

But how many have to do this, and spend more time doing so? Well, that's a reasonable question. Perhaps even more relevant is: how many people have stopped using the services by either a) not travelling or b) finding alternative methods ie car or taxi?

My guess is that there are three, perhaps four basic types of journey on the [fully operating] S&C

a) Commuter/shopping/leisure into Leeds/Bradford and other towns at the southern end. My guess is this is the largest proportion of traffic. It will come largely from Settle and stations south of Ribblehead. Unaffected by closure.

b) Commuter/shopping/leisure into Carlisle

This will largely come from Appleby, some from Kirkby Stephen and Eden Valley stations. Obviously affected. How many? I dunno. I think Appleby has about 80,000 entries and exits a year.

EDIT: In the original TT there was only one commuter train, pretty early in the morning too - and then nothing until the 08.47 from Leeds, which is late when it gets to the northern end, so the TT is not exactly attractive to passengers wanting to get to Carlisle unless they are prepared to get up early.

I'd guess: maybe 120 daily regulars along this northern section? Plus some weekend regulars?

But the availablity of a direct bus will greatly ease the problem for those from Appleby and north thereof. Pax from Kirkby Stephen, however, would be very inconvenienced relative to the rest. My guess is some from here will find alternative means, rather than the bother of the train, then the change to the bus ...... that's a drag.

c) Long distance end-to-end and beyond, traffic, ie Leeds - Carlisle, some of which will be 'strategic' ie needed and some tourist, ie adaptable

My guess is these will be the most affected passengers: some of the tourists will just stop short. But the strategic passengers may well find other means of travel, go via Lancaster or just not go. And some may be a permanent loss. how many? I dunno.

d) Traffic from the end stations into the intermediate stations, some 'strategic' and some tourist/leisure. My guess is that from those from the north, ie the those affected and likely to be put off by the delays and bus changes, is a pretty small segment of the total using the line.

 

[yorksrob]

There were usually quite a few through travellers travelling most of the route. The Little North Western has seemed busier than usual the last few times I've used it, so doubtless many of these are currently using alternative routes.

 

[Starmill]

Last time I did the afternoon train from Lancaster to Leeds I had to stand all the way it was so busy.

 

[yorksrob]

Last time I did the afternoon train from Lancaster to Leeds I had to stand all the way it was so busy.

Fortunately I've avoided that so far !

 

[70014IronDuke]

There were usually quite a few through travellers travelling most of the route. The Little North Western has seemed busier than usual the last few times I've used it, so doubtless many of these are currently using alternative routes.

Indeed, I had been thinking of posting on earlier threads the idea: instead of all the buses and efforts to keep passenger fitting into the pre-slip timetable as much as possible (worthy though that that is, it surely results in many miles of ECS travel by the DMUs, plus lengthy periods of waiting out of traffic) - would it not be worth re-casting the temporary S&C timetable completely, and diverting two DMU workings each way per day on a Leeds-Lancaster "fast" working - ie not stopping at Wennington, etc This designed to connect and be attractive to Leeds/Wharfdale pax for Carlisle northwards. (and vv)
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Last time I did the afternoon train from Lancaster to Leeds I had to stand all the way it was so busy.

Any guesses as to what caused these heavy loadings? eg were they boosted by summer-only Morecambe beach day trippers?

Or did it look like a significant number had come from Carlisle etc? (Yes, i'm sure it was difficult to tell - but you might have got talking to a few neighbours next to you in the crush!)

 

[chorleyjeff]

I don't know if over a million journeys a year counts as 'lightly used'.

I assume that means 500,000 each way. If there are about 300 trains a year each waythat gives a loading, roughly, of 150 to 200 passengers on average, although there must be big fluctuations during the year. Those figures are far more than I would have guessed from observations of trains around Ribblehead/Horton in years previousto this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't know if over a million journeys a year counts as 'lightly used'.

I assume that means 500,000 each way. If there are about 300 trains a year each waythat gives a loading, roughly, of 150 to 200 passengers on average, although there must be big fluctuations during the year. Those figures are far more than I would have guessed from observations of trains around Ribblehead/Horton in years previousto this.
I shouldsay that in the late 1950s when the Thames Clyde etc were running I would have thought there were fewer passengers then than now. I'll have to check old timetables to see how manypassenger trains there were.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A lot of the traffic seemed to be coal which dried up when the government brought in the taxes on carbon last year so I'm not sure how much had already been lost.

The Clitheroe cement tanks run via the WCML as does the Chirk logs.

Seems only recently that I would see several freight trains when walking around Whernside and Inglborough. I used to try and compare tonnage carried by those trains compared to the slower and much less heavily loaded steam hauled trains I remember and thought the recent tonnage was greater. But no doubt someone will have figures to prove me wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've a feeling that the trains from Kirkby Thore are not running at the moment as the latest Freightmaster book (I don't subscribe to the freight timetable) suggests that the only freight currently running are the occasional aggregate services from Ribblehead and the daily services from the Arcow quarry which is near Horton.

Incidentally you might be interested to know that freight was running from Warcop (MOD) well into the 1980's, along with the occasional ballast train from Ribblehead. Class 25s, 40s and 45s could all be seen operating these services.

Some months ago I was interested to watch a goods train cross over Ribblehead viaduct from South to North then the engine ran round and took the train back over the viaduct. Would that have been a train from Horton or Ribblehead sidings ? I had assumed aggregates from the Ribble valley was distributed by road.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not sure what your question is exactly (to me your 'question' in nonsensical).

.

OK. Sorry

 

[najaB]

I assume that means 500,000 each way. If there are about 300 trains a year each way...

You do realise that is less than one train a day?

 

[TheKnightWho]

I assume that means 500,000 each way. If there are about 300 trains a year each waythat gives a loading, roughly, of 150 to 200 passengers on average, although there must be big fluctuations during the year. Those figures are far more than I would have guessed from observations of trains around Ribblehead/Horton in years previousto this.

That would be because your estimate results in less than 1 train a day each way, with all passengers taking that train.

Aggregate of both directions, I make it 15 passenger trains a day weekdays, 14 Saturdays and 10 on Sundays. That comes to, over the year, around 5,000 trains.

 

[crehld]

That would be because your estimate results in less than 1 train a day each way, with all passengers taking that train.

Aggregate of both directions, I make it 15 passenger trains a day weekdays, 14 Saturdays and 10 on Sundays. That comes to, over the year, around 5,000 trains.

And thereby only 100 per train, which seems a rather conservative estimate.

I wouldn't put much trust in the station / line usage figures. They're wildly inaccurate and significantly under represent usage, as even the ORR themselves acknowledge, for a variety reasons (the chief one being lack of ticket checks and on board sales by guards for passengers joining at intermediate stations, meaning many enjoy a free journey and are therefore not counted).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Any guesses as to what caused these heavy loadings? eg were they boosted by summer-only Morecambe beach day trippers?

Or did it look like a significant number had come from Carlisle etc? (Yes, i'm sure it was difficult to tell - but you might have got talking to a few neighbours next to you in the crush!)

It's frequently that busy!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A lot of the traffic seemed to be coal which dried up when the government brought in the taxes on carbon last year so I'm not sure how much had already been lost.

The Clitheroe cement tanks run via the WCML as does the Chirk logs.

But used to go via the S&C before it was shut (or so the frequent images of cement and log trains passing my kitchen window suggested). I wonder what impact running the extra freight down the WCML has had on the WCML itself?

 

[driver9000]

Yes the cement and logs used to go S&C before the landslip closed the line. The impact on the WCML has been minimal from my experience as a regular Driver on the route, the diverted freight trains squeeze between the normal traffic by seemingly visiting every loop along the way.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed, I had been thinking of posting on earlier threads the idea: instead of all the buses and efforts to keep passenger fitting into the pre-slip timetable as much as possible (worthy though that that is, it surely results in many miles of ECS travel by the DMUs, plus lengthy periods of waiting out of traffic) - would it not be worth re-casting the temporary S&C timetable completely, and diverting two DMU workings each way per day on a Leeds-Lancaster "fast" working - ie not stopping at Wennington, etc This designed to connect and be attractive to Leeds/Wharfdale pax for Carlisle northwards. (and vv)

Well, when they were terminating at Appleby, the trains had a fairly long layover there. Now most of them are going all the way to Armathwaite, they don't wait around too long anyway (except the fast one which still lays over at Appleby). The local stations need their services anyway !

 

[RichmondCommu]

Some months ago I was interested to watch a goods train cross over Ribblehead viaduct from South to North then the engine ran round and took the train back over the viaduct. Would that have been a train from Horton or Ribblehead sidings ? I had assumed aggregates from the Ribble valley was distributed by road.

Both services run up to Blea Moor in order to run round their train. The easiest way to tell the two is that the service from Ribblehead is operated by DBS and the Horton services by GBRf.

 

[snowball]

I had assumed aggregates from the Ribble valley was distributed by road.

Arcow and Dry Rigg quarries were reconnected to the line last year.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Curse my advanced years - I thought the OP meant the mothballing in the 80s!

 

[randyrippley]

Any guesses as to what caused these heavy loadings? eg were they boosted by summer-only Morecambe beach day trippers?

No chance.......people don't go to Morecambe any more

 

[Class 170101]

would it not be worth re-casting the temporary S&C timetable completely, and diverting two DMU workings each way per day on a Leeds-Lancaster "fast" working - ie not stopping at Wennington, etc This designed to connect and be attractive to Leeds/Wharfdale pax for Carlisle northwards. (and vv)

Surely Leeds people would travel to Carlisle via Manchester anyway?

 

[yorksrob]

Surely Leeds people would travel to Carlisle via Manchester anyway?

I presume you mean during the disruption, in which case, You always need one change via Manchester, and a lot of those services are already quite crowded.

 

[daodao]

Surely Leeds people would travel to Carlisle via Manchester anyway?

A better alternative would be Preston.

I have just been reading a reprint of a late 19th century History of the Midland Railway. Apparently, the embankment above the River Eden north of Armathwaite was very difficult to stabilise at the time of the line's construction, and was expected to give trouble in the future.