Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Robertj21a]

Threefold in as much as:

1. The expansion of DOO in so far as:
a. The cascade of the class 165/166 Thames Turbos to West of England
b. The class 800/802 SETs (IEPs)/AT300s being DCO and able to run without a guard

2. The loss of the buffet on the 800/802s

3. The loss of in-house maintenance to Hitachi with the closure of TMDs, and the enforced change of location/job on maintenance staff.

Ah, thanks, now I remember it all. Everything recently seems to have been dominated by Southern/DOO even though there's a good many other disputes going on all over the country.

 

[Goldfish62]

Whether you accept it or not is irrelevant how do we know this doesnt go on?After all those proponents of DOO are working well within RSSB, so it wouldnt be a surprise to find that the CPS are working in cahoots with train companies and the rssb. No need for the tin hat though, that isnt going to protect anyone.

That's quite a niche conspiracy theory. "The Crown Prosecution Service is an agent of the TOCs" doesn't have the same ring to it as "the CIA was behind 9/11".

 

[Carlisle]

Ah, thanks, now I remember it all. Everything recently seems to have been dominated by Southern/DOO even though there's a good many other disputes going on all over the country.

Seeing as the RMT has agreed to have negotiations on drivers closing the doors on the new Scotrail EMUs, if these talks succeed I would think a similar deal may be possible on GWR

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That's quite a niche conspiracy theory. "The Crown Prosecution Service is an agent of the TOCs" doesn't have the same ring to it as "the CIA was behind 9/11".

Indeed, we have a wide range of conspiracy theorists of differing depth of feeling on this website who tend not to let reality spoil a good rant...

 

[speedy_sticks]

Seeing as the RMTs agreed to negotiations on drivers closing the doors on Scotrail, if these talks are successful I would have thought a similar deal would be possible on GWR

The difference with ScotRail is that the guards will be allowed to do platform duties at stops which is an excellent compromise.

 

[313103]

Indeed, we have a wide range of conspiracy theorists of differing depth of feeling on this website who tend not to let reality spoil a good rant...

Yes some from the right, some from left so what?

The reality is we all know where this will end up, and some on here seem very gleeful of that day.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Whilst we all know where this is going I do hope that at some point we dont end up saying "Told you so".

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Does any of Southern's current stock as they are now have the facility for drivers to open and close the doors? For their Electrostars that don't, do they have all the internals in place with the relevant panel in the cab blanked off?

 

[Carlisle]

Does any of Southern's current stock as they are now have the facility for drivers to open and close the doors? For their Electrostars that don't, do they have all the internals in place with the relevant panel in the cab blanked off?

It's been said on here previously all Southerns Electrostars can operate DOO, but the 170s and 313s can't, mainly due to the fact they don't have bodyside cameras

 

[SpacePhoenix]

It's been said on here previously all Southerns Electrostars can operate DOO, but the 170s and 313s can't, mainly due to the fact they don't have bodyside cameras I'd have thought

Did I mention DOO? No I didn't, it wouldn't necessarily be the driver doing it all, it could be the guard giving the close doors buzzer code and then the driver closes the doors

 

[hwl]

Does any of Southern's current stock as they are now have the facility for drivers to open and close the doors? For their Electrostars that don't, do they have all the internals in place with the relevant panel in the cab blanked off?

Most of it...
All 455s. All 377s have had the ability since new ( apart from the 377/3s which were converted from 375s a very long time ago and have been upgraded...).
Both operate metro services DOO (and have done since 1991 and 2002 repectively.)

 

[Carlisle]

Did I mention DOO? No I didn't, it wouldn't necessarily be the driver doing it all, it could be the guard giving the close doors buzzer code and then the driver closes the doors

So in that case (I don't believe it's used regularly on Electrostars except when dispatching from cabs) the driver would need controls in their cab to close the doors anyway

 

[pompeyfan]

The ideal of doing it the same way as XC (or southern in cabs) do is an interesting one. Is that basically how ScotRail are planning it? Or are ScotRail going for complete driver dispatch using body side cameras?

Back to southern quickly. In regards of long formations etc or short platforms how does a train its stopped short/overrun? Is the system that fail safe?

For reference, even SWTs Classic desiro's have door buttons in the drivers area which I believe are active as drivers release when they shunt in and out of Basingstoke on the stoppers.

 

[plymothian]

The 10 bell dispatch method (The "XC way") is the most the RMT could probably ever negotiate in order to retain guard initiated dispatch.

 

[tsr]

It's been said on here previously all Southerns Electrostars can operate DOO, but the 170s and 313s can't, mainly due to the fact they don't have bodyside cameras

171s (not 170s, GTR don't have any of those now) also can't run DOO if door deselect is required, which is quite a big deal given that most of the intermediate stations between London Bridge and Hurst Green (barring East Croydon) would require it on any formation longer than 4 coaches, and at Oxted you may end up needing it on anything longer than 2. Obviously this means they could not stop out of course under DOO, which is rather an issue if the train is unable to continue and needs to be detrained at any of the numerous intermediate stations.

Unless a lot of rewiring happens, the door deselect issue will not go away, and until it does you will always need a second person who can open and close the doors.

So in that case (I don't believe it's used regularly on Electrostars except when dispatching from cabs) the driver would need controls in their cab to close the doors anyway

Obviously it would be needed under DOO operation of 377s as well. Interestingly, should conductors need to work 387s, they can actually close doors within any intermediate or rear cab by themselves, so the driver on those only needs door closure controls for DOO.

The 10 bell dispatch method (The "XC way") is the most the RMT could probably ever negotiate in order to retain guard initiated dispatch.

That's already done on Southern 377s and very much considered to be a standard method of conductor dispatch, rather than some sort of "DCO" type of situation, even though the driver is the one pushing the buttons to open and close the doors. The conductor and any platform staff take full responsibility for dispatch per the Rule Book, they just delegate the task of pushing the close button to the driver when the time comes during the dispatch procedure.

 

[Bromley boy]

Most of it...
All 455s. All 377s have had the ability since new ( apart from the 377/3s which were converted from 375s a very long time ago and have been upgraded...).
Both operate metro services DOO (and have done since 1991 and 2002 repectively.)

Did the 375s not have the ability for drivers to open/close doors from new?

I previously understood that the 375-7 upgrade was Dellner couplings being fitted, and not much else?

Cheers.

Bb.

 

[Carlisle]

Did the 375s not have the ability for drivers to open/close doors from new?

I previously understood that the 375-7 upgrade was Dellner couplings being fitted, and not much else?

Cheers.

Bb.

Fitting of Bodyside cameras and associated equipment
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

171s (not 170s, GTR don't have any of those now) also can't run DOO if door deselect is required, which is quite a big deal given that most of the intermediate stations between London Bridge and Hurst Green (barring East Croydon) would require it on any formation longer than 4 coaches, and at Oxted you may end up needing it on anything longer than 2. Obviously this means they could not stop out of course under DOO, which is rather an issue if the train is unable to continue and needs to be detrained at any of the numerous intermediate stations.

Cheers thanks for the information and corrections ,
I'd only ever known 170s on DOO services out of Liverpool Street

 

[redbutton]

Back to southern quickly. In regards of long formations etc or short platforms how does a train its stopped short/overrun? Is the system that fail safe?

Nope, stop shorts happen regularly (at least weekly, sometimes more frequently) and overruns do happen though usually the driver will just carry on and make it a fail-to-call if he doesn't think he can stop in time. Wrong-side releases are perhaps the most common DOO safety issue. A system is currently being rolled out to Electrostars that will reduce the likelihood of wrong-side releases at most stations.

On Electrostar stock, either an overrun or a stop short requires manual intervention to deselect the doors that are off the platform using the MITRAC screen prior to door release.

However, this facility is not available on 455s since there is no computer. It does exactly what you tell it to do, though with the exception of a handful of Dorking and Guildford services, guards don't work these and they are already DOO.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Important information:

OBS staff role won't happen on already guarded trains until RMT agree on wider DOO deal.

This is what has been said by Southern Rail accessibly Manager.

 

[JamesTT]

I have a question where were the RMT, The Guards and their banners about safety when the TOC decimated the platform staff along the East and West coast way routes making pretty much all the trains on those routes self despatch at every station

 

[JamesTT]

Surely this is off topic!

Why would it be off topic it relates to the despatch of trains isn't that part of the argument against DOO

 

[AlterEgo]

Surely this is off topic!

Must be a difficult question to answer, then?

 

[radamfi]

I haven't been on Southern or on this thread for a while so I apologise if this has already been answered. Are former guarded trains already running with OBS and drivers closing the doors? If not, when is that scheduled to start?

 

[craigybagel]

I haven't been on Southern or on this thread for a while so I apologise if this has already been answered. Are former guarded trains already running with OBS and drivers closing the doors? If not, when is that scheduled to start?

Answer to your first question is no - and everything has gone rather quiet on the second.....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Surely this is off topic!

When this thread was first launched, on the very first posting on the thread, the moderators caused a preamble in red type to be shown to make their feelings known on what would not be allowed.

Can I ask all concerned to look at what was said at the start of that first posting.

 

[Bromley boy]

When this thread was first launched, on the very first posting on the thread, the moderators caused a preamble in red type to be shown to make their feelings known on what would not be allowed.

Can I ask all concerned to look at what was said at the start of that first posting.

Agreed.

The context of this thread is a "free debate" on the subject of DOO introduction.

As such, surely the subject of the RMT's historical approach to platform staff and subsequent DOO introduction is of relevance and should not be ignored.

There is an interesting wider question here of how the RMT engages with/represents its members and presents itself to the public at large.

 

[Domh245]

It would seem that the Government is releasing £20m for GTR to get to grips with their situation. Just popped up on BBC news

 

[infobleep]

It would seem that the Government is releasing £20m for FTR to get to grips with their situation. Just popped up on BBC news

I thought the Government didn't get involved in disputes? Wonder if the other bidders would be happy to see the Government giving GTR money?

I guess this might take this thread off topic if that is discussed on here so unless there is a point from this in relation to DOO, I won't want to invite discussions on it here.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[ComUtoR]

I thought the Government didn't get involved in disputes? Wonder if the other bidders would be happy to see the Government giving GTR money?.

I guess this might take this thread off topic if that is discussed on here so unless there is a point from this in relation to DOO, I won't want to invite discussions on it here.

The problem with this point is that part of the issue is that there is a belief that GTR are enforcing DOO because its what the Government wants. So this could be considered that the Government are paying to implement DOO.

Its been brought up before about the specifications in the franchise agreement that allow for X/Y and Z to happen so this is most likely already part of the franchise agreement somewhere.

As this is a management contract then aren't the Government already involved in this. GTR are only acting as their contractors and at the whim of the Government.

There was a select committee where they were all asked if the DfT should step in to help resolve the issues; maybe this is part of that ?

Keeping more directly on topic... Where does the £20m go ? Does that go towards redundancy payments ? Driver DOO money ? Infrastructure investment for DOO monitors on all platforms ? Guard panel upgrade for units ? £20m is a lot of money just to "give" a franchise. I suspect there are serious caveats involved.

Now that GTR got their way and the OBS role was introduced why is the dispute still ongoing ?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37245163

A £20m fund and a new review board has been unveiled in a bid to improve Southern rail services and "get to grips" with problems on its network.

The government action comes after months of disruption, strikes and a reduced service on rail routes in south London, Surrey, Sussex and Kent.

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling said the board would explore how to achieve rapid improvement for the public.

Southern's parent Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) welcomed the package.

RMT union members are due to stage a new 48-hour strike on 7 and 8 September as it fights moves to give drivers responsibility for opening and closing carriage doors.

Southern began imposing the changes in August.

Mr Grayling said one of Britain's most experienced rail industry figures, Chris Gibb, would head the new project board, which would work with GTR, the Department for Transport and Network Rail.

The board will also have a passenger representative.

It will accelerate the replacement of worn track and hire extra staff at key stations including East Croydon and Gatwick to make sure trains get away on time.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Because OBS STAFF haven't started replacing guarded operated trains yet, all hell will break out when that happens.

Perhaps the drivers may refuse to take the train without a guard on?

The problem with this point is that part of the issue is that there is a belief that GTR are enforcing DOO because its what the Government wants. So this could be considered that the Government are paying to implement DOO.

Its been brought up before about the specifications in the franchise agreement that allow for X/Y and Z to happen so this is most likely already part of the franchise agreement somewhere.

As this is a management contract then aren't the Government already involved in this. GTR are only acting as their contractors and at the whim of the Government.

There was a select committee where they were all asked if the DfT should step in to help resolve the issues; maybe this is part of that ?

Keeping more directly on topic... Where does the £20m go ? Does that go towards redundancy payments ? Driver DOO money ? Infrastructure investment for DOO monitors on all platforms ? Guard panel upgrade for units ? £20m is a lot of money just to "give" a franchise. I suspect there are serious caveats involved.

Now that GTR got their way and the OBS role was introduced why is the dispute still ongoing ?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37245163