Therein lies why DOO was introduced in the first place. Safety was not a consideration but selling out the conductors in the 80s was. Drivers and Guards don't care about safety it is about money and self presevation (I don't believe this myself but I can imagine this would be the angle of the right wing media in an attempt to discredit the unions)
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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal
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Therein lies why DOO was introduced in the first place. Safety was not a consideration but selling out the conductors in the 80s was. Drivers and Guards don't care about safety it is about money and self presevation (I don't believe this myself but I can imagine this would be the angle of the right wing media in an attempt to discredit the unions)
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Of course it was a consideration, many additional safety conditions had to be met before a line could be converted to DOO which in those early days you mention often took many months or years, to implement but I do appreciate there are still arguments against it
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Where it is already in the contract, relatively little, unless there are local agreements not to extend it.
Where drivers do not have it in their contract (i.e. intercity operators and most regional stuff outside the South East), outright refusal and probably industrial action. No one down my part wants anything to do with DOO, they don't want to be jailed when drunks and late runners slip, nor deal with anti social behaviour, criticism and moaning, and violence, whilst attempting to concentrate on a job which one screw up means at best being on the first steps to dismissal via plans, or at worst death.
Many transferred to get away from DOO and have many stories of near misses on the platform, transporting around gangs, drunks, criminals and being attacked, spat at and abused. Many were ex-guards previously. I was talking to a DOO driver who admitted he almost missed a station because he was thinking about the threats of violence he had received off drunks, rather than concentrating on driving.
We are told that distractions to drivers are a major issue - no one allowed in the cab, do not allow yourself to be distracted by pouring tea, passing trains on other lines, signals on other lines, people waving on bridges or whatever, yet drivers are expected to deal with passengers - of which 99.99% are reasonable decent people who deserve a good service, but of which 0.01% are a nuisance / distraction / selfish / dangerous to self and others, and of that group a percentage are basically criminals. How it is unsafe to have another driver or guard in the cab, or talking to the station dispatcher because it results in distraction from looking at signals, yet dealing with anti social behaviour doesn't, I have no idea!
Interestingly a cleaner once told me that DOO trains were always filthier and in a worst state and full of far more unpleasant things than trains with guards. Presumably some of this is reactive - a guard may do a bit of litter picking or report things before they get out of hand such as blocked or fouled toilets, and biohazards, which a driver would not know about, nor have time to report, but it appears that on trains where there is no staff presence, nor threat of removal from the train, it is as we have always said, a free for all for the very worst in human behaviour - and the poor fare paying public have to be surrounded by it.
Most drivers are on decent money now and certainly where I am, care more about conditions. DOO, compulsory Sundays (unless it is a 4 day week - rather than the 7 day week that the TOCs want) and 12 hour movement off spares are always things that will be thrown out of any pay talks, no matter what is offered. It's already been tried and been turned down multiple times.
Finally there may be cases where drivers are permanently removed from driving, either for medical or due to being unsuitable. At least they may have the protection of going as a guard or platform dispatcher, rather than the dole queue.
No job is for life these days. You can hire someone now and get ride of them in a few years time.
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I'm confused. Have any responsibilities now transferred from guards to drivers on any routes/services? If so, can affected trains now run without a second member of staff if necessary? If it's just two trains per day so far, what are the plans to roll it out to other trains?
tsr
Established Member
No routes have been lost by conductors or gained as DOO by drivers since rollout of OBSs started on Sunday, unless I am much mistaken. Only those routes and traction already with DOO services will have seen a slight extension of such operation (your wording may differ, depending on contracts/local agreements) thus far. OBSs have been introduced on some routes with existing DOO from last Sunday, initially with manager "buddies" - though I believe a couple of them are now working solo.
And once everyone is an OBS.. What then? GTR disappear into the sunset and the next franchise wants to get rid of the OBS grade completely?
RMT offered them a deal that gives away some door operations from guard to the driver but Southern walked out.
RMT offered them a deal that gives away some door operations from guard to the driver but Southern walked out.
Neither side is saying it, but I'm convinced this is what the dispute is really about. Southern have offered all the guarantees they can that this won't happen, but they can't control what the next franchisee does unless they keep the franchise.
The sticking point seems to be what happens if a guard is not available to run a specific service. Southern are insisting on a list of exceptional circumstances where they would be allowed to run the train without a second member of staff, and RMT are insisting that that can never happen. I can't see Southern ever agreeing to that, because that loses the main short term benefit of their plan (improved reliability during disruption).
What is safer, one crush loaded train with a guard, or two reasonably loaded trains, one with a member of OBS, one without?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I am sure that you did not mean to say that....:roll:
Infobleep's posts often have what I assume are hasty typos. I think it would be better not to draw attention to them.
I used to make such comments but so many of our correspondents are less literate (not Infobleep) and now I just accept and value their posts.
- 'them trains was late and could of definately' - just a few examples of what we read here. We know what they mean.
What happens when the train without the OBS fails, the driver is required to be out of the cab on the track for whatever ever reason, and then passengers start detraining because of the lack of announcements or information. Which train is safer then?
Harbornite
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Think he meant to say rid.
What happens? A squadron of flying pigs passes over a hen admiring its teeth...
the sniper
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https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...a/file/410841/120523_R072012_Kentish_Town.pdf
No mention of flying pigs or a hen in this case... RAIB must have missed them.
I have corrected the mistake. My brain thinks father than I type sometimes and I don't always spot my typos. I do try to correct those I see though eve if afterwards.
My point still stands. I say this because I heard if someone who went through a restructure 2 years ago and is now going through another. Same company too. So no job is for life as I stated.
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Indeed I did and I've corrected it.
Yes it was a typo. Some phone also auotcorrects at times and whilst it corrects many miss hit letters, sometimes it doesn't or it picks the wrong word. I digress.
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If you had the opportunity to fight for your job, with full union backing, would you ?
The Guards know there is no such thing as a job for life but they love their jobs and have chosen to fight it all the way to the dole queue.
Great if they ultimately win,
but as in most disputes/disagreements weather private or collective like this I'd say there's at least equal dignity in knowing when the healthiest option is to call it a day, and attempt to move on with ones life
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Indeed the RAIB does seem to have missed the flying pigs in its report.
They would still fight knowing its a losing battle. Rolling over like a dog and letting them scratch your tummy isn't an option.
Where is a persons sense of dignity when they roll over. They would regret not fighting. What happens when you don't fight ? You don't get a good deal, you get what your given. Fighting till the end may still lose but you main gain a little back. What happens the next time ?
The option to call it a day works from BOTH sides. How long would you screw over your employees for ? How long would you bleed them dry ? Where is your sense of dignity when your destroying your workforce and peoples lives ?
Yes it happened once, 5 years ago. New procedures were put in place. The fact that it hasn't happened since suggests that it is a rare occurrence.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Sense of employers dignity? I think you need to see how matters actually are in the real world. Was much "dignity" shown by employers in some large closure programmes in recent times?
What about all the times passengers have detrained after an incident even with a guard present, then? Shall we go through all the historical RAIB reports?
It's has happened since! Very recently because passengers didn't hear any announcements. A Boeing 777 crashed in the 1990's in a set of circumstances that where one in a million to ever happen again but Boeing put things in place to stop it. If always having a second member of staff on board to make announcements reduces the chance of passengers detraining then that is safer.
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Yes please tell me how many times passengers have detrained themselves on a train that had a guard. Making a statement like that means you know how many.
Well I can't put a figure on it but didn't SWT go through a spate of passengers detraining themselves three or four years ago?
Too many to count. SWT had quite a few some years back as another poster states; here's one such incident: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13729482
EDIT: a lovely collection here, mentioned downthread (tho the original incident was a DOO train, others mentioned weren't): http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=47880
BestWestern said:
One from the DLR - which has staff on board: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=110189
Virgin had one when I worked for them. In fact, come to think of it, Grayrigg was another example (the guard was trapped in the rear vehicle). Channel Tunnel fire was another.
I'm not literally going to go through every single railway accident report and cite them all (I'm not that boring anyway
), but do have a look on the Railways Archive site and see for yourself that passengers detraining themselves isn't a phenomenon confined to DOO trains. It's very disingenuous for posters to imply that it is, by bringing up Kentish Town repeatedly. Passengers detrain on all types of trains; DOO trains, guarded ones, and even DLR ones with PSAs on board. This is a fact, one which hasn't escaped the RSSB, funnily enough.
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The thing was with Kentish Town is that people have a vision that DOO trains in the largest city in the UK have a plethora of staff that are sat around doing nothing that can immediately go an assist which was actually quite the opposite.
It massively showed how overworked the driver can get with trying to fix a fault with conflicting MITRAC messages, dealing with the signaller/fitter/control over the GSM-R, a control room that didn't understand the fault, passengers that were in horrific conditions and overall a situation lost because the passengers kept opening the doors.
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This is the great bit about the privatisation model is that no one can take the blame nor can anyone make a long term decision. A lot of staff will be there for the next two or maybe three franchises. The RMT want reassurances of what the future of the OBS grade will be. GTR say they can't do anything after the franchise is up which is understandable as they may not win the next one and obviously cannot make any decisions for it. The DfT won't get involved as they say it's a private company and so they deal with it as they want to avoid government interference. The same DfT that specifies virtually everything from branding to writing out the franchise staffing specifications. :roll:
If Southern actually had enough guards in the first place without heavily relying on rest day working then there would be better reliability. In my experience, TOCs can't be trusted with T&Cs and agreements. In fact, they're in dispute with ASLEF over breaching rostering agreements for this "improved" timetable.
It massively showed how overworked the driver can get with trying to fix a fault with conflicting MITRAC messages, dealing with the signaller/fitter/control over the GSM-R, a control room that didn't understand the fault, passengers that were in horrific conditions and overall a situation lost because the passengers kept opening the doors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is the great bit about the privatisation model is that no one can take the blame nor can anyone make a long term decision. A lot of staff will be there for the next two or maybe three franchises. The RMT want reassurances of what the future of the OBS grade will be. GTR say they can't do anything after the franchise is up which is understandable as they may not win the next one and obviously cannot make any decisions for it. The DfT won't get involved as they say it's a private company and so they deal with it as they want to avoid government interference. The same DfT that specifies virtually everything from branding to writing out the franchise staffing specifications. :roll:
- GTR want trains to run without an OBS or guard, that's the basis of the dispute. Nothing to do with customer service enhancement. In fact GTR would rather see them Penalty Fared than buy a ticket from the ticket office, which incidently is proposed to be closed or hours reduced by GTR.
- An internal document from GTR posted in this thread months ago showed the numbers of OBS proposed were less than the current guards requirements. Why when GTR promised in a press release that the numbers would stay the same? Where is the money saving for GTR?
- The fact that the same thing happened to Gatwick Express (Govia) years ago when it went DOO, the guards were regraded to an OBS role. Years later there are no OBS left on Gatwick Express and are now 12 car DOO trains.
- A document posted early on in this thread stated that GTR threatened to push ahead with the OBS implementation by replacing Conductor contracts with personal OBS contracts on a 12 month basis, bypassing all agreements with unions. So you get a review every 12 months and if your face doesn't fit, your pushed out of the door! One way to avoid paying out redundancy and getting the headcount numbers down
- GTR have played it to the media that this is who pushes a button to close doors. A massive concession from the RMT was to discuss drivers operating doors with GTR dismissing the idea immediately and walked out of ACAS. So much for spin from GTR of the idea of drivers operating doors so the OBS can spend more time with passengers..
If Southern actually had enough guards in the first place without heavily relying on rest day working then there would be better reliability. In my experience, TOCs can't be trusted with T&Cs and agreements. In fact, they're in dispute with ASLEF over breaching rostering agreements for this "improved" timetable.
So an incident takes place where a on a DOO service, passengers detrain themselves because of lack of info from the driver. You tell everyone to wait until the RAIB report is released so the facts can then be established. Then when someone asks you for links to RAIB reports for passengers detraining themselves on services with guards you have the nerve to link a media story! :roll::roll:
You make valid points, unfortunately when most people read some of them the response is, and....?
Some forum members want nationalisation. Yet in the civil service, for the lower grades, 1 year contracts are the norm, 2 years for grade B and above.
If the face doesn't fit in life generally, you will be managed out. In work, if you don't perform for people paying for your services, they tend to find replacements, even the government isn't running charities. You do it yourself, if you don't like Tescos you go to Asda.
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I did not tell anyone to wait for a RAIB report at all, read my post again.
Dave, is it true that passengers detrain themselves both on DOO and guarded services or not? Can you show me that the presence of a guard prevents passenger self-detrainments? Because this seems to be the gold standard of the "keep the guard" argument at this point in the thread.
While we're on RAIB reports, show me where the RAIB discuss how unsafe DOO is with the Kentish Town incident: https://assets.publishing.service.g...0b6024100016d/R072012_120523_Kentish_Town.pdf (clue: don't look too hard - the driver and FCC control via social media kept passengers updated but they still broke out of the train. What else is a guard going to do, wrestle 200 people to the ground?)
I don't have the time or inclination to file through decades of accident reports, and I suspect neither do you, or else you'd be doing it already.
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