IE 22000 class

[Philip]

These are great little DMUs running commuter and intercity services out of Dublin. They have been ordered in 3, 4 and 6 car sets and seem appropriate for their work.

Would it not have made more sense for Northern to have ordered a batch of these (with UK rail dimensions) instead of the CAF DMUs? An already tried and tested model seems a better idea than a completely new batch. Also having a fleet made up of 3, 4 and 6 car sets seems more sense than the 2 and 3 car DMU fleet that Northern have ordered.

 

[sprinterguy]

Hyundai Rotem may well have had no interest in providing a version of the 22000 class to UK spec. If they had put a bid in (I've seen no evidence to suggest that they did) then it could have been considered too costly compared to their competitors.

The design of the 22000 class units also seems quite different to the specification desired by Northern for their new trains: While the new trains are for use on "Northern Connect" regional services and hence it may be considered that a regional express unit akin to the 22000 may be suitable, Northern have evidently chosen a design with doors at the one third positions to aid passenger circulation on busy commuter services: The new trains seem to be more akin to the CAF built 3000 and 4000 class units in use in Northern Ireland.

According to Wikipedia in lieu of any other more reliable source that I can find, the 22000 class units are also very heavy, which might well affect their ability to use existing Sprinter speed differentials and result in excessive track access and operating costs.

I consider Northern's core diesel routes radiating out from Manchester and Leeds to be not dissimilar to Birmingham's Snow Hill lines, where a fleet of new 2 and 3 carriage units are well suited to meeting the varying demands at different times of the day and week, being flexible enough to be formed into formations of any length between 2 and 6 carriages. Sadly, however, I do doubt that Northern will be as likely to provide formations at the longer end of this scale.

 

[Mordac]

Those are IC trains, though. The 195s are already somewhat similar to the NIR class 4000 trains.

 

[Philip]

The 5-car version of the class could be considered 'intercity' but the 3 and 4 car sets seem to me to be very similar internally to a 175, which seem to be the bees knees for modern inter-regional DMU comfort these days (and they sound very similar to a Turbostar!). On the subject of the door layout, if Northern had placed an order with H.R for a UK-spec build of 22000, surely H.R could have tailored the door layout to meet Northern's requirements? That wouldn't be the hardest job I'd have thought?

I think Northern have made a terrible mistake in underestimating the scale of passenger growth over the duration of the franchise and the number of 195s that have been ordered, as well as the short formations they have gone for, won't come close to meeting the required capacity needed to cope with all the new and additional services they're taking on. An extra order of say 15-20 UK-spec, reliable 4-car 22000s (with commuter door layout), to supplement the 195s would make a lot of sense I think. On the weight issue, most of the Northern Connect routes don't go above 75mph anyway so it shouldn't be a big problem on that score.

 

[jayiscupid]

The 5-car version of the class could be considered 'intercity' but the 3 and 4 car sets seem to me to be very similar internally to a 175, which seem to be the bees knees for modern inter-regional DMU comfort these days (and they sound very similar to a Turbostar!). On the subject of the door layout, if Northern had placed an order with H.R for a UK-spec build of 22000, surely H.R could have tailored the door layout to meet Northern's requirements? That wouldn't be the hardest job I'd have thought?

I think Northern have made a terrible mistake in underestimating the scale of passenger growth over the duration of the franchise and the number of 195s that have been ordered, as well as the short formations they have gone for, won't come close to meeting the required capacity needed to cope with all the new and additional services they're taking on. An extra order of say 15-20 UK-spec, reliable 4-car 22000s (with commuter door layout), to supplement the 195s would make a lot of sense I think. On the weight issue, most of the Northern Connect routes don't go above 75mph anyway so it shouldn't be a big problem on that score.

Northern have options in their contract with CAF to expand the units and order more. It's far better to have one big mix-and-match fleet than lots of smaller mini fleets. Especially with 15-20 4 car 22000 which won't be compatible with the CAF units. I think they've been smart ordering 2 and 3 car units to double up in peak times. If passenger numbers continue to grow then they have the option of ordering more or lengthening the CAF fleet.

 

[craigybagel]

and they sound very similar to a Turbostar!)

.
That would be because it pretty much is the same engine as used by Turbostar.

On the subject of the door layout, if Northern had placed an order with H.R for a UK-spec build of 22000, surely H.R could have tailored the door layout to meet Northern's requirements? That wouldn't be the hardest job I'd have thought?

If I remember correctly, one of the reasons the NIR contract went to CAF and not ROTEM for what became the NIR 4000 class was because their proposal was basically for more 22000s, with end doors, when NIR wanted 1/3 2/3 doors.

These are great little DMUs running commuter and intercity services out of Dublin. They have been ordered in 3, 4 and 6 car sets and seem appropriate for their work.

Would it not have made more sense for Northern to have ordered a batch of these (with UK rail dimensions) instead of the CAF DMUs? An already tried and tested model seems a better idea than a completely new batch. Also having a fleet made up of 3, 4 and 6 car sets seems more sense than the 2 and 3 car DMU fleet that Northern have ordered.

They were actually originally ordered as mostly 3 and a smaller amount of 6 car sets. Over the years they've been reformed into 3, 4 and 5 car sets to increase flexibility.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The problem with the 22K Rotem sets and the 29K CAF sets on Irish Rail is they are often used interchangeably for intercity and commuter work.

The 22K is completely unsuitable for commuter work since I have never seen a train that has so little provision or possibility to stand safely, which is a big issue when they turn up on commuter routes which they do very often in peak time.

Then during the same peak you will see a 29k turn up on an intercity route, not suitable for a journey of more than 90 minutes because it is basic, not that comfortable and noisy with a crap PIS that normally never works, and just feels cheap inside.

It happens time and time again and IR know about it and basically have admitted that they use an interchangeable pool between a number of routes out of Dublin with no firm allocations although generally you can predict about 75% of the time what is more likely.

 

[hurricanemk1c]

Ordered as:
22001-22030 (3-car)
22031-22040 (6-car, Premier Class with kitchen)
22041-22045 (6-car standard class only 'High Capacity')
22046-22063 (3-car).

Now arranged as:

22001-22010 (3-car)
22011-22030 (4-car)
22031-22040 (5-car with kitchen etc)
22041-22045 (4-car)
22046-22063 (3-car)

They are Intercity units not suited to start-stop and rapid loading/unloading of commuter runs (as pointed out above and in my own commuting experience from Portlaoise)

NIR went back to CAF due to compatability with the exisiting fleet