Break of journey on outward Off Peak Return

[Sholto Douglas]

I was planning on travelling Penrith to Inverness using an off-peak return ticket and breaking my outward journey overnight in Edinburgh.

Trainline's customer service team said that this could be done, but speaking to Scotrail (as a belts and braces confirmation) they said that it could not be done and transferred me to Virgin Trains as they set the fares rules for this route.

If I had taken Trainline's answer at face value, would I have been penalised when trying to continue my journey the following day? I was aware of the old ruling, under Savers Fares, that the outward is valid on the day of travel only and the return within one calendar month however it is a number of years since I worked in the travel industry and rules can of course change.

Many thanks for any comments.

 

[yorkie]

Welcome

I was planning on travelling Penrith to Inverness using an off-peak return ticket and breaking my outward journey overnight in Edinburgh.

Trainline's customer service team said that this could be done...

Agreed.

, but speaking to Scotrail (as a belts and braces confirmation)

In the rail industry, you are often likely to get two different answers, if the question is something complex regarding fares. And what happens on the day can be different entirely!

they said that it could not be done and transferred me to Virgin Trains as they set the fares rules for this route.

If I had taken Trainline's answer at face value, would I have been penalised when trying to continue my journey the following day?

Depends on the Guard.

I was aware of the old ruling, under Savers Fares, that the outward is valid on the day of travel only and the return within one calendar month however it is a number of years since I worked in the travel industry and rules can of course change.

Many thanks for any comments.

The old rule was that you could break your journey overnight if you resumed by 1200 on the next day. The new rule is that it has to be by 0429 on the morning after the next day.

However this is a contentious issue; see other threads...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The outward portion of the Off-Peak Return is valid for use on the date noted on the ticket, and until 0429 the next morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time the journey may be continued on the second day and upto 0429 the next morning, provided that the relevant time restrictions are adhered to.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46590.aspx

In my opinion, Scotrail are correct, it cannot be done on that one ticket, and if you follow the other advice you would be liable for a new fare for the part of the journey not covered by your ticket.

 

[najaB]

I was planning on travelling Penrith to Inverness using an off-peak return ticket and breaking my outward journey overnight in Edinburgh.

What time did you intend on leaving Penrith?

 

[gray1404]

When you get your ticket checked when you board the train at Penrith, you could ask the guard to endorse the back of your ticket to say that you are only travelling to Edinburgh that day. If they don't do that you could ask the gateline or ticket office when you arrive at Edinburgh.

The following day I would simply show my ticket at the gateline at Edinburgh (if it has one) and if anyone questions it I would just say that you are resuming your journey after an overnight stop. On such a long journey up to Inverness with somewhat of a limited service it would stand to reason that you may have arrived the previous day after the last service has left.

Once on the platform you could simply approach the guard before you get on, show your ticket and explain your resuming after an overnight break. I believe that Scotrail guards are some of the most friendly on the network so hopefully you will not have any problems. (I see that VTEC to operate one service daily too). This is approach I would take. Of course, you could simply wait until the on board ticket check and explain, up to you.

 

[Haywain]

The outward portion of the Off-Peak Return is valid for use on the date noted on the ticket, and until 0429 the next morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time the journey may be continued on the second day and upto 0429 the next morning, provided that the relevant time restrictions are adhered to.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46590.aspx

In my opinion, Scotrail are correct, it cannot be done on that one ticket, and if you follow the other advice you would be liable for a new fare for the part of the journey not covered by your ticket.

I couldn't disagree more with this comment. The ticket is entirely valid for the use proposed, as has been discussed many times before, and there is absolutely no need to buy 2 tickets to make the journey.

 

[Rover]

As the Penrith-Inverness off-peak return has outward restriction 2U "Break of journey is not permitted, except to change trains", surely the only way the OP can legally break his journey overnight at Edinburgh is if he cannot continue his journey that day? Meaning that he arrives Edinburgh after the last train for Inverness has departed.

Therefore should the OP be challenged on leaving the station at Edinburgh he will be deemed to be breaking his journey if a connection for Inverness is still available.

 

[yorkie]

As the Penrith-Inverness off-peak return has outward restriction 2U "Break of journey is not permitted, except to change trains", surely the only way the OP can legally break his journey overnight at Edinburgh is if he cannot continue his journey that day? Meaning that he arrives Edinburgh after the last train for Inverness has departed.

Therefore should the OP be challenged on leaving the station at Edinburgh he will be deemed to be breaking his journey if a connection for Inverness is still available.

What if Sholto Douglas cannot continue his/her journey for any other reason? You've only given one possible reason.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=814401&highlight=break#post814401

I too am disappointed to note that the overnight BoJ rules for Off Peak/Super Off Peak Singles or the outward portion of Off Peak/Super Off Peak Returns appear to have removed the option for a passenger to break their journey if they wish.

These new rules seem to state that overnight BoJ is only to be permitted if the journey cannot be completed on day 1. That, according to Condition 11, isn't classed as a BoJ anyway.

Just to clear this up, you can choose where you break your journey overnight if you need to do so. You do not have to travel to the furthest possible point (after all, there might not be anywhere to stay there, so that would be daft!).

Break of journey used to be barred on the outward portion of Savers, but has been allowed since 2008 (since they became off-peak tickets) unless specifically restricted in the restriction code for the specific journey - this only applies to a small number of journeys.

So things are getting more flexible, not less!

A supplementary Q&A has been sent out to staff now to deal with some of the questions that have arisen, this will also hopefully clear up any confusion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

From the staff briefing document (linked earlier), for Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Single; (also Outward portions of Off-Peak/Super Off-Peak Returns):

Journey MUST commence on the date on the ticket. If the journey cannot be completed on first day, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. All travel must be completed by 0429 past midnight on the second day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, the same time restrictions from the origin station apply on BOTH days.​

I think the bit in bold means 04:29 on day two, not 04:29 on day three (since midnight, i.e. 00:00, is at the start of a day not the end). If so, then surely the new rules are clear that no travel at all is allowed after 04:29 on day 2, even if the journey could not be completed on day 1?

Er, it is actually meant to be 0429 on the third day. This has been clarified in the follow up Q&A sent out earlier this week. No-one spotted the confusing wording during the proof reading

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In my opinion, Scotrail are correct, it cannot be done on that one ticket, and if you follow the other advice you would be liable for a new fare for the part of the journey not covered by your ticket.

Your opinion and Scotrail's answer are both incorrect, and ATOC briefs should have made this clear. However I do wish it was made clearer in the T&Cs.

 

[Rover]

What if Sholto Douglas cannot continue his/her journey for any other reason? You've only given one possible reason.

What other genuine reasons are there? The restriction is "no break of journey" for that ticket. The OP is setting out to break his/her journey.
If he/she arrives Edinburgh whilst there are still onward connections and leaves the station what explanation can they give if challenged?

I know there will be some as your knowledge on these matters is second to none so perhaps you would enlighten my darkness because I can't think of anything?

 

[Merseysider]

What other genuine reasons are there? The restriction is "no break of journey" for that ticket. The OP is setting out to break his/her journey.
If he/she arrives Edinburgh whilst there are still onward connections and leaves the station what explanation can they give if challenged?

I know there will be some as your knowledge on these matters is second to none so perhaps you would enlighten my darkness because I can't think of anything?

Here's one: even if they got the last train to Inverness, there'd be no onward local bus at that time.

Or: a medical condition (which they're under no obligation to disclose) means it's uncomfortable to travel for extended periods

Etc.

There are dozens of possible reasons why someone may not be willing/able to complete a 6 hour journey in one day.

 

[Haywain]

There are dozens of possible reasons why someone may not be willing/able to complete a 6 hour journey in one day.

And as has been stated many times before, the decision that the journey cannot be completed is solely that of the customer. No explanation should be asked for or offered.

 

[gray1404]

Here's one: even if they got the last train to Inverness, there'd be no onward local bus at that time.

Or: a medical condition (which they're under no obligation to disclose) means it's uncomfortable to travel for extended periods

Etc.

There are dozens of possible reasons why someone may not be willing/able to complete a 6 hour journey in one day.

Totally agree with this. Until the conditions are written in such a way whereby it says something like: "if there are no further rail connections to enable you to finish your journey." then it is up to the passenger to determine if are they able to finish.

I think the solution is this problem is a universal approach that the outward portion of an Off Peak ticket is valid for 2 days regardless of journey or restriction code AND this is printed on the ticket. So the "valid until" date on the outward portion should be the actual day after. Under "validity" it should say either "Two Days" or simply "As Advertised". This would certainly avoid some of the current conflict with guards who do not know the correct conditions of such tickets.

 

[najaB]

This would certainly avoid some of the current conflict with guards who do not know the correct conditions of such tickets.

Sadly, I fear it would just postpone the conflict by 24 hours.

 

[gray1404]

Sadly, I fear it would just postpone the conflict by 24 hours.

You think some guards would still dispute it even if the actual date of day 2 was printed/or the wording TWO DAYS was printed on the ticket?

 

[najaB]

You think some guards would still dispute it even if the actual date of day 2 was printed/or the wording TWO DAYS was printed on the ticket?

Yup.

*filler*

 

[Merseysider]

You think some guards would still dispute it even if the actual date of day 2 was printed/or the wording TWO DAYS was printed on the ticket?

Some guards manage to dispute it even when ONE MONTH is printed on the ticket...

 

[Haywain]

I think the solution is this problem is a universal approach that the outward portion of an Off Peak ticket is valid for 2 days regardless of journey or restriction code AND this is printed on the ticket. So the "valid until" date on the outward portion should be the actual day after. Under "validity" it should say either "Two Days" or simply "As Advertised". This would certainly avoid some of the current conflict with guards who do not know the correct conditions of such tickets.

But the validity is not two days - the journey MUST be commenced on the first day, something which a two day validity would negate. The solution is not to change what is printed on the ticket but to improve training and availability of appropriate information for those who seem to struggle with relatively simple concepts.

 

[Sholto Douglas]

Many thanks for all who have, so far, replied.

To clarify the full journey is actually Penrith to Alness, but I used Inverness as the nearest major station. Our reason for wanting to break the journey in Edinburgh is 3 fold. First and second reasons are that we have to use public transport to get to Penrith and we also need to be into Alness before around 1800hrs in order that friends can drive and collect us. The third point is that my partner does not travel well and, the thought of having to be moving for a full day is rather daunting.

Using a disabled rail card gave us a through fare of £160.10, but I have found that by splitting the journey at Edinburgh we can have 2 off peak return tickets at a total cost of £165.60 and thus avoid any problems.

Whilst this solves the possible validity of using a single ticket for the through journey it still does not answer my original point which was about the different application of fares rules between TOCs. I was interested to read Rover's reference to Code U2. As an ex-travel agent I am well aware of these codes in the SPM, but can find no specific reference to them on the various TOC websites.

Time to take my travel agent hat off and return to being an ordinary passenger trying to understand the silly vagrancy of our country's rail pricing system. Take me back to Miles and Chains and a choice of 1st, 2nd OR 3rd class travel!!

PS - having searched further on the National Rail site I tried to follow the link to find the restriction code for my journey "view the specific 'Validity Code' applicable to the journey plan that you have selected." and the the response was to send me to an error page.

 

[najaB]

To clarify the full journey is actually Penrith to Alness...

Having spent too much time in Alness (six weeks already this year), you have my heartfelt sympathy.

 

[gray1404]

But the validity is not two days - the journey MUST be commenced on the first day, something which a two day validity would negate. The solution is not to change what is printed on the ticket but to improve training and availability of appropriate information for those who seem to struggle with relatively simple concepts.

Yes I agree some guards dispute it when ONE MONTH is printed on the ticket. That comes into play on the return leg. What they are disputing there is your right to resume your journey and incorrectly advocate that it must be finished on the day you start your return trip.

I think there are two issues at play, the above one PLUS some guards not knowing that for the outward journey, that this can continue into day two. The proposal I suggested would, to some extent (although not fully) attempt to resolve this. It would certainly give me more confidence and something to go on when I am trying to explain to a guard why an outward ticket with yesterdays date on it is still valid.

I do accept though that if TWO DAYS is printed on the ticket then it would allow the customer to also start their journey on DAY 2. I personally do not see anything wrong with that if making it more simple avoids the current misunderstandings and conflict that is arising (even if just to some extent).

 

[Rover]

Here's one: even if they got the last train to Inverness, there'd be no onward local bus at that time.

Or: a medical condition (which they're under no obligation to disclose) means it's uncomfortable to travel for extended periods

Etc.

There are dozens of possible reasons why someone may not be willing/able to complete a 6 hour journey in one day.

I see, so all BOJ restrictions are meaningless during the validity period and are unenforceable?

 

[gray1404]

PS - having searched further on the National Rail site I tried to follow the link to find the restriction code for my journey "view the specific 'Validity Code' applicable to the journey plan that you have selected." and the the response was to send me to an error page.

Go to BRfares.com and look up the ticket you want there. It is simple to use and once you click on the ticket you require you will see all the restrictions for the restriction code you require.

 

[Sholto Douglas]

Many thanks, I have now bookmarked the BRfares site. You learn something new each day.

 

[Merseysider]

I see, so all BOJ restrictions are meaningless during the validity period and are unenforceable?

A stop overnight to continue the next day isn't considered a break of journey, as per the NRCoC.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Your opinion and Scotrail's answer are both incorrect, and ATOC briefs should have made this clear. However I do wish it was made clearer in the T&Cs.

Just reading what's written in the public domain (by and on behalf of ATOC), no hiding behind hidden briefings. I do recall a briefing about not having to go as far as you can before getting a hotel for the night, but that was in conjuction with "if the journey cannot be completed that day", perhaps that is the brief you are thinking of? If not, maybe you could get your insiders at ATOC to re-issue it?

Here's one: even if they got the last train to Inverness, there'd be no onward local bus at that time.....

Wait, so they have a ticket to Inverness, and there is a train they can use to get to Inverness, but you suggest that there not being a bus waiting for them at Inverness would stop them getting to Inverness even though there is a perfectly usable train that would do the job? Am I reading that right?

So if I needed a lift from Inverness station, but unfortunately my friend can't pick me up at the station until the next day, I can stop somewhere overnight midway along the journey? Even if I started the journey at 10am?

 

[Haywain]

Wait, so they have a ticket to Inverness, and there is a train they can use to get to Inverness, but you suggest that there not being a bus waiting for them at Inverness would stop them getting to Inverness even though there is a perfectly usable train that would do the job? Am I reading that right?

So if I needed a lift from Inverness station, but unfortunately my friend can't pick me up at the station until the next day, I can stop somewhere overnight midway along the journey? Even if I started the journey at 10am?

You do seem to be getting the hang of this. What you say is absolutely correct.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You do seem to be getting the hang of this. What you say is absolutely correct.

Sorry but it sounds like bollocks to me. If that was the intent then the validity period would be two days, not one.

 

[Haywain]

Sorry but it sounds like bollocks to me. If that was the intent then the validity period would be two days, not one.

Perhaps you should consider asking the pricing manager of the TOC that you work for, you might be surprised.

Sent from my SM-G800F using Tapatalk

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry but it sounds like bollocks to me. If that was the intent then the validity period would be two days, not one.

It isn't bollocks, it's true. It relies on people not taking the proverbial, of course. I was surprised to learn of it when I was staff too.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Perhaps you should consider asking the pricing manager of the TOC that you work for, you might be surprised.

You want me to consider going to my pricing manager with "if a passenger, travelling on the outward portion of an Off-Peak Return, departs on a 6 hour train journey at 10am, but then discovers they can't get picked up from their destination station by their mate until the day after they are supposed to arrive, can they stay over night somewhere halfway and continue their journey the next day without having to buy a new ticket, on the basis that they can't complete their journey before 0429?"?