Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[FordFocus]

External Orange 'Hazard Light' in the rulebook. Other terms vary from TOC to TOC.

 

[Monty]

External Orange 'Hazard Light' in the rulebook. Other terms vary from TOC to TOC.

I've always known it as a 'Hazard Light' too.

 

[swt_passenger]

They're 'hazard lights' in the rule book, but are also referred to in more technical standards as 'body side indicator lights'; hence BIL.

Why have one name when you can have two?

 

[ComUtoR]

I've always know them as BIL's. Hazard Lights are something altogether different... but we digress.

 

[sarahj]

They're 'hazard lights' in the rule book, but are also referred to in more technical standards as 'body side indicator lights'; hence BIL.

Why have one name when you can have two?

I've often wondered what BIL meant.

 

[tsr]

Once more, I am compelled to offer some clarity about door control on Electrostars on the GTR network:

Both 377s and 387s have a Steward's Panel (often known as a conductor panel) with a key switch (off<->active), a door close button which also doubles as an interlock light, a signal bell button, and a handset, located behind locked doors on opposite sides of one vestibule per coach.

On a 377 the "C" door panel in any coach has a CCTV viewing monitor for internal CCTV only. On 377s and 387s, the "F" door panel has a lighting dimmer switch.

On 377s, conductors and - in exceptional circumstances - OBSs can also work the train from a cab. The cab is divided in two when it is one of the "middle cabs" during multiple working, with locked doors for accessing various different components. Amongst driving an emergency equipment, the cab also has a Mitrac screen which can be used with a limited range of functions by means of a secure login, a signal bell, and a "Signal Bell Enable" key switch. On any class of 377 worked from the cab, the Signal Bell is used to give a 1-2 Door Close signal to the driver by a conductor, as there is no door close button/equipment.

On a 387, there is similar equipment, but the conductor (not OBS, as OBSs don't yet work 387s, and anyway this bit would be irrelevant) also has access to a Door Close button.

There is no interlock light for conductors in the cabs of 377s or 387s. Interlock can be checked by ensuring all BILs are extinguished after the local door is closed, and by ensuring the red "door release" lights in the cab are extinguished.

There is no door release functionality available for conductors on 377s or 387s. However, when working from the cab, before opening the local door or when checking it is safe to dispatch, the red door release lights in the cab should be checked (illuminated or extinguished, respectively).

OBSs are provided with a steward's panel key to activate the saloon steward's panels. This does the following for their duties:
- Allows them to use the PA in the saloon
- Allows them to use the same handset to communicate with the driver/other staff through the cab-to-cab system
- Allows them to break the door close circuit (this is another thing the key does in active mode, to allow that door to be used as a local door, up to now generally only during conductor working) to allow a wheelchair ramp to be deployed at that door without it closing if the driver uses the door close button, or if the door automatically closes after a few seconds

Obviously, with a single 377 consisting of anything up to 5 coaches, being able to work away from the handset in the rear or middle cab is important, in order to achieve maximum visibility to passengers.

The OBS should inform the driver of their presence because having an interruption on the door close circuit, in the form of an active key creating a local door, could otherwise be unexpected, and interfere unexpectedly with dispatch. A driver on 377s can override what they believe to be a spurious interruption of the door close system with a key active, thereby closing the remaining door and self-dispatching. Therefore, knowing that an OBS is present means that they know not to do this and a) wait for the relevant door to be kept open whilst, for example, a ramp is in use or b) get the OBS to investigate where the key is activated, and whether there is any cause for this.

I am not saying this is an ideal system. Unfortunately the way some Electrostars are wired means that it would not be possible for OBSs to fulfil large parts of their job description without a panel key. Naturally this could still cause confusion with door operation, which makes the point from the RSSB about miscommunication between drivers and guards somewhat moot, given this is being done by non-safety-critical personnel who can still cause obstructions for dispatch. However, it is probably deemed as being as close to failsafe as this traction will allow. Whether this is good enough, I'm afraid it looks now as if only time will tell.

A last note: on the Southern network, the term "hazard lights" is not often used. I personally believe it is too similar to the term "[hazard] warning lights" referring to the flashing headlight option used in the event of an accident, on traction so equipped, to warn other trains.

 

[thelem]

Not quite - some services which were already DOO will now have OBS staff (generally supervised by managers at present, and being rolled out on a gradual basis) from today.

So are you saying that trains that last week had one member of staff on board will now have two? If so, where are these additional staff coming from?

 

[ComUtoR]

So are you saying that trains that last week had one member of staff on board will now have two? If so, where are these additional staff coming from?

Don't worry. If there isn't enough staff, then the train can continue without one. Staffing issues no longer exist and no extra staff are required.

 

[pompeyfan]

By the sounds of things, the set up is much easier on a Desiro. There is no chance of any of the above mentioned hiccups.

Sarahj, as of tomorrow what does your job consist of if you don't mind me asking?

 

[sarahj]

By the sounds of things, the set up is much easier on a Desiro. There is no chance of any of the above mentioned hiccups.

Sarahj, as of tomorrow what does your job consist of if you don't mind me asking?

Staying in and watching netflix

Just kidding, I'm restdays, back in Tue am, doing normal work for now. The first OBS's out there are the former RPI's. The master plan has a phased introduction between now and the end of December. My letter to be getting the notice of having the choice of collecting a P45 or being a OBS could arrive anytime between now and then. I was number 69 on a list where the top 56 or so would still be a conductor (working the 313's).

 

[Dave1987]

Don't worry. If there isn't enough staff, then the train can continue without one. Staffing issues no longer exist and no extra staff are required.

Thought the PR they were putting out says that they will only run without a second member of staff in "extreme circumstances".

 

[DelayRepay]

From what I can work out, the big change will also find something missing from Southern/GTR trains in the area that may make a big change to a certain part of this forum.

I assume that something isn't guards, as we already know they will be missing.

We are used to drivers being missing.

We are used to trains or parts of trains being missing.

We know ticket office staff will go missing soon.

What else is left to remove? Are they planning to take the platforms away or lift the rails and sell them for scrap?

 

[Dave1987]

Staying in and watching netflix

Just kidding, I'm restdays, back in Tue am, doing normal work for now. The first OBS's out there are the former RPI's. The master plan has a phased introduction between now and the end of December. My letter to be getting the notice of having the choice of collecting a P45 or being a OBS could arrive anytime between now and then. I was number 69 on a list where the top 56 or so would still be a conductor (working the 313's).

How many are taking redundancy?

 

[sarahj]

I assume that something isn't guards, as we already know they will be missing.

We are used to drivers being missing.

We are used to trains or parts of trains being missing.

We know ticket office staff will go missing soon.

What else is left to remove? Are they planning to take the platforms away or lift the rails and sell them for scrap?

a clue is in post 5385
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How many are taking redundancy?

A few, some have moved on to do other things. TBH I'm looking elsewhere on the railway as well,

 

[DelayRepay]

a clue is in post 5385

Yes, I see. So does the master plan have the OBS dealing with fare dodgers (in the way that an RPI currently does, as opposed to the way a Guard currently does)? Or is it a free for all now?

 

[sarahj]

Yes, I see. So does the master plan have the OBS dealing with fare dodgers (in the way that an RPI currently does, as opposed to the way a Guard currently does)? Or is it a free for all now?

Don't have a clue, I have an idea, but don't know officially.
Lets just say that once a OBS is on the train, until they marked as getting off the train in their working, they should not leave a train unless due to things such as assault.

 

[tsr]

So are you saying that trains that last week had one member of staff on board will now have two? If so, where are these additional staff coming from?

As sarahj says above, current OBSs are Southern ex-RPOs.

You are correct in thinking that there are now more staff diagrammed to trains, though I have no idea if any external recruitment has seen a net increase in OBSs. I suspect not - yet - but I don't know for sure. In which case, the increase in trains with a second member of crew (ie. new OBS routes) will simply be due to RPOs not being used on a roving ad-hoc/as required basis, as it was previously.

Southern's revenue staff at certain depots did have daily train-specific diagrams in the slightly distant past, so for the older hands it will be harking back to prior ways of working anyway, just with somewhat different job descriptions. That said, many of them won't be used to it.

 

[notadriver]

Once more, I am compelled to offer some clarity about door control on Electrostars on the GTR network:

Both 377s and 387s have a Steward's Panel (often known as a conductor panel) with a key switch (off<->active), a door close button which also doubles as an interlock light, a signal bell button, and a handset, located behind locked doors on opposite sides of one vestibule per coach.

On a 377 the "C" door panel in any coach has a CCTV viewing monitor for internal CCTV only. On 377s and 387s, the "F" door panel has a lighting dimmer switch.

On 377s, conductors and - in exceptional circumstances - OBSs can also work the train from a cab. The cab is divided in two when it is one of the "middle cabs" during multiple working, with locked doors for accessing various different components. Amongst driving an emergency equipment, the cab also has a Mitrac screen which can be used with a limited range of functions by means of a secure login, a signal bell, and a "Signal Bell Enable" key switch. On any class of 377 worked from the cab, the Signal Bell is used to give a 1-2 Door Close signal to the driver by a conductor, as there is no door close button/equipment.

On a 387, there is similar equipment, but the conductor (not OBS, as OBSs don't yet work 387s, and anyway this bit would be irrelevant) also has access to a Door Close button.

There is no interlock light for conductors in the cabs of 377s or 387s. Interlock can be checked by ensuring all BILs are extinguished after the local door is closed, and by ensuring the red "door release" lights in the cab are extinguished.

There is no door release functionality available for conductors on 377s or 387s. However, when working from the cab, before opening the local door or when checking it is safe to dispatch, the red door release lights in the cab should be checked (illuminated or extinguished, respectively).

OBSs are provided with a steward's panel key to activate the saloon steward's panels. This does the following for their duties:
- Allows them to use the PA in the saloon
- Allows them to use the same handset to communicate with the driver/other staff through the cab-to-cab system
- Allows them to break the door close circuit (this is another thing the key does in active mode, to allow that door to be used as a local door, up to now generally only during conductor working) to allow a wheelchair ramp to be deployed at that door without it closing if the driver uses the door close button, or if the door automatically closes after a few seconds

Obviously, with a single 377 consisting of anything up to 5 coaches, being able to work away from the handset in the rear or middle cab is important, in order to achieve maximum visibility to passengers.

The OBS should inform the driver of their presence because having an interruption on the door close circuit, in the form of an active key creating a local door, could otherwise be unexpected, and interfere unexpectedly with dispatch. A driver on 377s can override what they believe to be a spurious interruption of the door close system with a key active, thereby closing the remaining door and self-dispatching. Therefore, knowing that an OBS is present means that they know not to do this and a) wait for the relevant door to be kept open whilst, for example, a ramp is in use or b) get the OBS to investigate where the key is activated, and whether there is any cause for this.

I am not saying this is an ideal system. Unfortunately the way some Electrostars are wired means that it would not be possible for OBSs to fulfil large parts of their job description without a panel key. Naturally this could still cause confusion with door operation, which makes the point from the RSSB about miscommunication between drivers and guards somewhat moot, given this is being done by non-safety-critical personnel who can still cause obstructions for dispatch. However, it is probably deemed as being as close to failsafe as this traction will allow. Whether this is good enough, I'm afraid it looks now as if only time will tell.

A last note: on the Southern network, the term "hazard lights" is not often used. I personally believe it is too similar to the term "[hazard] warning lights" referring to the flashing headlight option used in the event of an accident, on traction so equipped, to warn other trains.

Southern seem to change the rule book to suit themselves. The only staff that should have a panel key and be therefore be able to interfere with the operation of the doors is a safety critical conductor or driver. The Javelin trains have a switch which can prevent doors auto-closing for the ramp but the driver has ultimate control of the doors at all times.


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[ainsworth74]

As sarahj says above, current OBSs are Southern ex-RPOs.

You are correct in thinking that there are now more staff diagrammed to trains, though I have no idea if any external recruitment has seen a net increase in OBSs. I suspect not - yet - but I don't know for sure. In which case, the increase in trains with a second member of crew (ie. new OBS routes) will simply be due to RPOs not being used on a roving ad-hoc/as required basis, as it was previously.

Southern's revenue staff at certain depots did have daily train-specific diagrams in the slightly distant past, so for the older hands it will be harking back to prior ways of working anyway, just with somewhat different job descriptions. That said, many of them won't be used to it.

How do the RPOs feel about the changes to their jobs? Obviously, and justifiably, the focus has been on Southern Guards but I guess for the RPOs this is still quite a big change in the way they work as well.

 

[313103]

My letter to be getting the notice of having the choice of collecting a P45 or being a OBS could arrive anytime between now and then. I was number 69 on a list where the top 56 or so would still be a conductor (working the 313's).

My very best and sincere wishes on your future path sarahj i know what you must be going through and despite what some may think on here making it sound like its a easy decision to make when it most certainly isnt, i still struggle with the 'did i make the right decision' some nearly 3 years after i left. Some of the guards down where i now live are looking at the gtr issue at close quarters, and despite the fact it hasnt been mentioned, they are concerned about what the future if any they have.

Is the company offering those that do not want to be a obs the choice of taking some money as a form of redundancy (like they did on London Overground), or are they saying you have to take an obs role or make yourself unemployable?

I wonder how the first week day went.

 

[AlexNL]

OBSs are provided with a steward's panel key to activate the saloon steward's panels. This does the following for their duties:
(...)
- Allows them to use the same handset to communicate with the driver/other staff through the cab-to-cab system

Out of curiosity, is this the only way in which guards/conductors/OBS can communicate with the driver?

Here in the Netherlands, all staff (at NS at least) have two-way radios which they use for staff communication. Headsets (if available) are only used for PA.

 

[gavin]

Breaking: RMT union says workers at SouthernRailway are to stage 48-hour strike on 7 and 8 September in the long-running row over the role of guards

 

[infobleep]

Obviously the OBS role is being phased in, in stages. Does anyone know at which phase or stage the emergency timetable can be scraped and the full timetable introduced?

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[hwl]

Breaking: RMT union says workers at SouthernRailway are to stage 48-hour strike on 7 and 8 September in the long-running row over the role of guards

Any bets on whether SN go for max DOO for those 2 days then cancel the guard operated ones they can cancel?

 

[infobleep]

Any bets on whether SN go for max DOO for those 2 days then cancel the guard operated ones they can cancel?

Surely it would be the same strike timetable as before.

They seem to have four timetables operating until further notice.
* Emergency Monday to Friday timetable
* Saturday normal timetable with engineering work changes as and when
* Sunday normal timetable with engineering work changes as and when
* Strike timetable on any day a strike occurs. If Strike cancelled then may add other trains in so you'd get a Strike Plus timetable.

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[HowardGWR]

Breaking: RMT union says workers at SouthernRailway are to stage 48-hour strike on 7 and 8 September in the long-running row over the role of guards

It has not been clear to me what advantage RMT expect to gain for its members and it hasn't been clear from the outset. Has anyone any insight into what might be the motivation as it seems only to achieve the loss of earnings by members without preventing the implementation of what Southern are planning.

 

[craigybagel]

It has not been clear to me what advantage RMT expect to gain for its members and it hasn't been clear from the outset. Has anyone any insight into what might be the motivation as it seems only to achieve the loss of earnings by members without preventing the implementation of what Southern are planning.

That's debatable - Southern haven't managed to implement anything yet except for some RPI's on services that were already DOO now having slightly different job descriptions. Southern will have only succeeded when trains that currently must have a guard on start running as DOO instead....

 

[HowardGWR]

That's debatable - Southern haven't managed to implement anything yet except for some RPI's on services that were already DOO now having slightly different job descriptions. Southern will have only succeeded when trains that currently must have a guard on start running as DOO instead....

Thanks for that. Does anyone seriously doubt that this will happen?

 

[craigybagel]

It will be interesting to see what the drivers say when they're asked to work trains DOO that previously carried guards - personally I think that's going to be the deciding factor.

 

[AlterEgo]

It will be interesting to see what the drivers say when they're asked to work trains DOO that previously carried guards - personally I think that's going to be the deciding factor.

It'll come down to "that's more responsibility for a driver, so £££ please".