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Jeremy Corbyn & Tom Watson elected leader and deputy leader of the Labour Party

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Xenophon PCDGS

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If you don't accept that routinely offering people traditionally considered employees contracts which make them self employed isn't exploitative, then I'm afraid that's just unreasonable. It might be legal, and above board, but it doesn't make it a good thing. There's no security with it - and often with low pay too, it's not consulting work I'm on about.

I admit to only viewing matters from a strictly legalistic point of view as it will be this point of view that will need to be heard in a Court of Law should any dispute be brought before such a body. In cases such as this, emotive questions raised such as seemingly exploitative behaviour is one that will be viewed only from a legal point of view, not an emotive one. This is why I stand aside from emotive matters, however well-intentioned they might be and I reserve the right to adopt such a standpoint.
 
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90sWereBetter

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Now the Corbynites are demanding that Sadiq Khan be "deselected" as Mayor of London, after he backed Owen Smith. Some are even calling for him to be replaced with George Galloway.<(

I've said it before, and i'll say it again, if Labour MPs are deselected by Momentum/SWP when Corbyn wins the leadership again, I will never vote Labour again. Mind you, at the way Labour's going in the polls, the general electorate will deselect them anyway...
 

asylumxl

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Now the Corbynites are demanding that Sadiq Khan be "deselected" as Mayor of London, after he backed Owen Smith. Some are even calling for him to be replaced with George Galloway.<(

I've said it before, and i'll say it again, if Labour MPs are deselected by Momentum/SWP when Corbyn wins the leadership again, I will never vote Labour again. Mind you, at the way Labour's going in the polls, the general electorate will deselect them anyway...
I have not found a single source to back up your claim. Or are you counting troll posts on Twitter and FB as reliable evidence?
 

Butts

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Wasn't the number of shares employees could buy limited?

Also, we will have to keep looking for this mythical fast delivery then, as the Royal Mail isn't capable of delivering things that are "guaranteed" next day on the next day.

Indeed but those with enough service got a few grands worth gratis in stages :p
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Good for them, If the employees are going to have a free share allocation, I'd rather this was in the form of a collective, so that they could have full ownership, rather than being a sideshow to big business.

"Try and find a courier that will deliver a letter from Penzance to Lerwick for 64p" This was true of our nationalised postal system which you still haven't provided a justification to the change from the status quo.

Here's your chance. Given that we had an excellent nationalised postal service that could deliver a letter from Penzance to Pitcairn, why, pray tell, were we forced to privatise by the Establishment ?

Saying how good the service is, isn't a reason, given that we had that good service before privatisation.

I guess it was all about money and the investment required to keep pace with the introduction of modern technology. Also the Communication Workers Union is no longer a Government problem once it is privatised.

It's fluctuating profitability was a source of concern with the drop in volume of mail as e-mail replaced the written word and parcels and packages came to the fore. The Government banked the cash and handed the investment responsibility to the private sector. However I believe it remains a guarantor with regard to the Pension liabilities.

When Jeremy becomes PM I'm sure he'll buy it back :p
 
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asylumxl

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Indeed but those with enough service got a few grands worth gratis in stages :p

That's not really saying much when the market capitalisation for the Royal Mail is £5,155 million and the Royal Mail allocated £429 million worth to the employees, with conditions on selling them I might add.
 

Butts

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That's not really saying much when the market capitalisation for the Royal Mail is £5,155 million and the Royal Mail allocated £429 million worth to the employees, with conditions on selling them I might add.

Well I wouldn't say no - would you ?
 

Butts

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Baxenden Bank

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Perhaps not, but businesses are known to give with one hand and take with another.

The few grand of shares won't help much if your pension scheme is "unaffordable" and there is "uncertainty" about being able to honour it...

https://www.ft.com/content/97c592d8-5c93-11e6-bb77-a121aa8abd95

A few grand in shares is nothing compared to losing, say, a couple of grand per year off your salary (or lower than inflation pay increases) for the next 10 working years, plus worsened working conditions, terms of employment etc. A cheap bribe, if you had it and left the company quickly a 'quick win', for those who remain it will come back and bite them, hard.

Just like all those bribe privatisations and de-mutualisations.

Remind me, how are my 'free' Halifax Building Society shares doing under this fantastic free-market system we have. Indeed, how is the building society itself doing having been unleashed from the shackles of common ownership.
 

Butts

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A few grand in shares is nothing compared to losing, say, a couple of grand per year off your salary (or lower than inflation pay increases) for the next 10 working years, plus worsened working conditions, terms of employment etc. A cheap bribe, if you had it and left the company quickly a 'quick win', for those who remain it will come back and bite them, hard.

Just like all those bribe privatisations and de-mutualisations.

Remind me, how are my 'free' Halifax Building Society shares doing under this fantastic free-market system we have. Indeed, how is the building society itself doing having been unleashed from the shackles of common ownership.

With regard to the Royal Mail they have had pay rises every year since privatisation (unlike a lot of people) and there is always plenty of overtime going. It wouldn't be a quick win if you left the Company quickly as there are restrictions on selling the shares.

Your free Halifax Shares (I'm suprised your conscience allowed you to keep them) may have plunged in value but your fellow members voted for de-mutualisation so perhaps you would be better directed at venting your anger on them - ie the general public.
 

Arglwydd Golau

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A few grand in shares is nothing compared to losing, say, a couple of grand per year off your salary (or lower than inflation pay increases) for the next 10 working years, plus worsened working conditions, terms of employment etc. A cheap bribe, if you had it and left the company quickly a 'quick win', for those who remain it will come back and bite them, hard.

Just like all those bribe privatisations and de-mutualisations.

Remind me, how are my 'free' Halifax Building Society shares doing under this fantastic free-market system we have. Indeed, how is the building society itself doing having been unleashed from the shackles of common ownership.
Well said!...and you might add how is the Home Ownership going as well, another wonderful promise made at the same time.
 

Harbornite

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Close, although "Funny Farm" would be more appropriate :p


Council of People's Commissars surely? :lol:

Ieremy Corblin looks the part in Stalin's uniform doesn't he!

stalincorbyn.jpg



Long live the UBSR! (Union of British Socialist republics)
 

Baxenden Bank

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With regard to the Royal Mail they have had pay rises every year since privatisation (unlike a lot of people) and there is always plenty of overtime going. It wouldn't be a quick win if you left the Company quickly as there are restrictions on selling the shares.

Your free Halifax Shares (I'm suprised your conscience allowed you to keep them) may have plunged in value but your fellow members voted for de-mutualisation so perhaps you would be better directed at venting your anger on them - ie the general public.

My conscience did prevent me buying any shares in many of the privatisations which took place when I possibly had the money available. The Halifax shares were given to me whether I wanted them or not (perhaps I could have donated them to charity at the time, I don't recall). In front of me, beaming like a Cheshire cat who got all the cream (and then some), I have the picture of the CEO offering me an interim dividend of 0.85 pence per share. Last years combined dividend payments wouldn't have paid for a fish supper.

Like Mr Corbyn, there are people who stand by their principles, rather than selling their soul in the pursuit of power at any price.
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Well said!...and you might add how is the Home Ownership going as well, another wonderful promise made at the same time.

Ah, widespread home ownership, the holy grail of both main political parties. Gordon Brown's economic miracle. Instead of paying 3.5 times your salary and having cash to have a life as well, you can pay 6 times instead for the exact same house. What a fantastic deal.
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When and if that happens, will number 10 Downing Street be renamed "Animal Farm"?

Why hasn't 10 Downing Street (and all the gratis luxury ministerial properties such as Chequers) been sold to an off-shore tax avoiding investment vehicle, like all the armed forces quarters were. That way, they could be just as well maintained and the ministers would 'all be in it together' with the troops etc.
 

Butts

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Ah, widespread home ownership, the holy grail of both main political parties. Gordon Brown's economic miracle. Instead of paying 3.5 times your salary and having cash to have a life as well, you can pay 6 times instead for the exact same house. What a fantastic deal.
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.

This has already been discussed on another thread, in some areas of the country it is feasible to purchase a property for 3.5 times your salary- especially if you are a Train Driver living in an area with moderately priced houses - thanks to privatisation :p
 

Baxenden Bank

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This has already been discussed on another thread, in some areas of the country it is feasible to purchase a property for 3.5 times your salary- especially if you are a Train Driver living in an area with moderately priced houses - thanks to privatisation :p

Train drivers basic pay being in the top 10 percent of pay in the UK, or the top 2.4m tax payers. What about everyone else? Or don't you care about anyone else - I'm all right Jack.
 

Harbornite

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eremy Corbyn’s supporters should get off Twitter and read a book instead. Or at least that’s the somewhat patronising headline accusation that opens the Telegraph deputy editor Allister Heath’s polemic against the left’s contestant in the current Labour leadership contest. It’s a bit rich for rightwingers to accuse leftwingers of not reading enough books. Surely the stereotype is that we read rather too many of the damn things, supposedly rendering us other-wordly intellectuals who remain congenitally unsuited to the genuine rigour required to run a whelk stall?

Heath can rest assured that many socialists are in possession of formidable private libraries, often including the output of our intellectual critics. Because of that, many of us will readily identify the Hayekian provenance of his arguments. Our interlocutor’s assertions are chiefly two; that Corbyn’s manifestation of Labourism is somehow incipiently totalitarian, and that there is no alternative to the economics of the free market right and its political corollaries. Thus the piece starts with an invitation for ‘any gullible youngster … who has fallen for Jeremy Corbyn’s socialist siren song’ to read Robert Conquest’s The Great Terror, which ‘may at least jolt them out of their ideological stupor’.

The Corbyn campaign, we are told, is ‘simply reopening a lengthy debate that was closed down when the Berlin Wall fell in 1989’. We are, in short, treated to just about every accusation in the cliched rightwing playbook, leaving us only one ritual invocation of Pol Pot short of full house. The tone alone – as asinine as it is apocalyptic – certainly grates. What is being said here?

That Corbyn advocates the institution of a Very British Gulag Archipelago centred on Doncaster, with satellite camps scattered across the vast post-Thatcherite industrial wastelands of the Northern Powerhouse?
That should Corbynism triumph, Britain will have to build an Anti-fascist Defence Wall around the Calais entrance to Eurotunnel, to prevent immigrants getting out?
Perhaps realising how specious such contentions are, Heath then immediately contradicts himself. ‘Needless to say,’ he writes, ‘Mr Corbyn and his groupies are no Stalinists’. Precisely. So why spend a substantial portion of the article warning us that Stalinism is a Very Bad Thing? We kind of knew that already.

Of what fallacies will reading Conquest disabuse gullible youngsters, then? The insidious dangers of rampant Year Zero Scandinavian social democracy? The ugly perils of unleashing German Mitbestimmung? Such deliberate conflation is, in origin, Hayek’s rather than Heath’s. The Austrian economist’s most famous book – not coincidentally, written on the eve of the electoral triumph of the most radical Labour government in British history – made the case that even the least attempt at economic planning is The Road to Serfdom. The problem for defenders of that thesis is that it was verifiably nonsense on stilts; pace Churchill’s dire warnings, Clem Attlee did not institute a Gestapo regime.

While we are on the subject of infamous rightwing books, Heath even indulges in the obligatory big up for Francis Fukuyama’s The End of History and the Last Man, which argued that free markets and liberal democracy were the last word in humanity’s economic and political evolution. That is another volume of rightist punditry that has not stood the test of time. Free markets and liberal democracy do not feature highly on the Moscow or Beijing agenda right now, nor find much favour in the Middle East. Moreover, Hayek himself was perfectly prepared to defend murderous military dictatorships, provided only that they ‘upheld economic liberty’.

In short, Heath’s charge that the left’s ‘ignorance of history, let alone economic theory, is shocking’ really won’t wash.

The second part of the piece comprises a standard panegyric in defence of capitalism, premised on the Hayekian notion of spontaneous order; let the lefties meddle and the whole shooting match comes crashing down. The world economy continues to ‘boom’, we are told. Well, there a plenty of pro-capitalist observers, with an eye on the China slowdown and the current stagnation in world trade (£), offering rather more pessimistic assessments.

Hundreds of millions of people have been lifted ‘out of poverty’ by the grace of capitalism, Heath insists. But as I have argued elsewhere, this notion is contested. To be sure, it is better to be a few cents over the entirely arbitrary dollar-a-day threshold than a few cents under it, but capitalism still condemns around half the planet’s population to an unimaginably basic existence.

If we are going to highlight lacunae on people’s reading list, Mr Heath may want to take a look at Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the Twenty-First Century and The Spirit Level by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett. To be blunt, the idea that the advent of a British opposition party led by an advocate of renationalising the railway network and reintroducing student grants would be enough to derail global capitalism, then Hayek’s spontaneous order is hardly a robust edifice.

A Corbyn victory on September 12 – if it happens – won’t be the launchpad for permanent revolution. But it would be a key first step towards the extension of democracy in both politics and economics. Anyone would think Mr Heath didn’t welcome the prospect.

http://www.leftfutures.org/2015/08/...rbyn-a-reply-to-the-telegraphs-deputy-editor/
 

Butts

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Train drivers basic pay being in the top 10 percent of pay in the UK, or the top 2.4m tax payers. What about everyone else? Or don't you care about anyone else - I'm all right Jack.

I was thinking about my Son who is a Postman and recently purchased a flat in Dudley - a real life case not rhetoric :idea:
 

asylumxl

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It is in one of the nicer areas of Dudley Metropolitan Borough actually - there are some !!! Not ex-council and surrounded by a nice small private housing estate. 2 Bed and a Garage - £67,000 [emoji14]
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He's not ;)
Well he probably was glad to get far away from you. Dudley seems attractive in that context :P.
 

ainsworth74

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Okay we've just done Butts' son purchasing a flat in Dudley on a thread which can be found here. Let's move back to the topic of this thread shall we?
 

Butts

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Okay we've just done Butts' son purchasing a flat in Dudley on a thread which can be found here. Let's move back to the topic of this thread shall we?

Thanks for the name check oh mighty one ;)

Is it true that moderate Labour MP's are begging Conservative colleagues to hold a General Election asap to put them "out of their misery" and get rid of Corbyn and his momentum buddies at the same time. :idea:
 
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