Overnight BoJ: 8A SVR

[Merseysider]

I hold a Chester -> Salford Crescent off peak return. The outward portion (dated today, 18/8) will be part-used to travel Chester - Birkenhead tonight.

Tomorrow (19/8) I intend to complete my journey by travelling Birkenhead - LIV - MAN - Salford.

I wasn't informed about any BoJ restrictions when purchasing the ticket, so I believe this is permitted. Am I likely to have issues utilising a break of journey overnight on an 8A ticket that normally bars outward break of journey, where the journey cannot be completed on the initial day of validity, thus requiring a break?

Thanks

Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day.
...
Please note that break of journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed in the ticket restrictions.

 

[greatkingrat]

The conditions of carriage say that an overnight stay when it is not reasonably possible to complete your journey that day is not considered a break a journey. So whether break of journey is permitted on the ticket or not doesn't matter.

 

[Andrew1395]

Why isn't it possible to complete the journey within one day? If it is possible by timetabled services a Break of journey facility is not available. Surely an off peak journey from Chester to Salford crescent is possible before the end of the day?

 

[Merseysider]

The conditions of carriage say that an overnight stay when it is not reasonably possible to complete your journey that day is not considered a break a journey. So whether break of journey is permitted on the ticket or not doesn't matter.

Thanks. That's good news.

Why isn't it possible to complete the journey within one day? If it is possible by timetabled services a Break of journey facility is not available. Surely an off peak journey from Chester to Salford crescent is possible before the end of the day?

The 23:00 Chester - Liverpool Lime Street 23:43 does not meet any onward connection in Liverpool, let alone one in the Manchester direction. It is therefore necessary to stop overnight in Birkenhead, where I have a house. I don't believe I'm required to wait in Lime Street overnight for the first train?

 

[AlterEgo]

Why isn't it possible to complete the journey within one day? If it is possible by timetabled services a Break of journey facility is not available. Surely an off peak journey from Chester to Salford crescent is possible before the end of the day?

It's not up to anyone, except the customer, to decide whether the journey can reasonably be completed in one day.

 

[Haywain]

It's not up to anyone, except the customer, to decide whether the journey can reasonably be completed in one day.

And whilst I fully support this, I do feel that the break of journey restriction makes this a slightly greyer area than it otherwise might be.

 

[Andrew1395]

It's not up to anyone, except the customer, to decide whether the journey can reasonably be completed in one day.

That's not the intention of the rule at all, it was for journeys that was unreasonable to undertake. IN this case it would be reasonable to start the journey on the next day or commence it earlier. This is just a way of saving money, which again is not the reason the rule on Bo J is there. And it does not say it is up to the customers discretion either! if it was there would not be any break of journey restrictions, as every customer would claim they were using an impossible journey time to take advantage. I doubt if anyone will care or notice on this example, but this is exactly the sort of thing that will lead to a rewriting of the rules.

 

[Paul Kelly]

It's not up to anyone, except the customer, to decide whether the journey can reasonably be completed in one day.

I disagree with this to a large extent - IMHO the break of journey restriction would be meaningless if the passenger could just decide whether it was reasonable to stop overnight or not. It's quite a different scenario from that with the effective 2-day validity on the outward portion for Off-Peak Returns that don't have a break of journey restriction.
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if the passenger could just decide whether it was reasonable to stop overnight or not

Just re-reading that and I think I was not very clear. Of course the passenger must decide whether it's reasonable to break overnight - it would be daft to have to ask for permission every time, and if he/she has no doubt that his/her plans are reasonable, there probably won't be any problem. I just mean that in deciding whether it's reasonable, the passenger should ideally take into account what an average, reasonable person might consider reasonable.

But I suppose that's very difficult in practice because if something seems perfectly reasonable to you then it might not occur to you that others may find it unreasonable. However if you have doubts whether it's reasonable (evidenced, perhaps, by the fact you might feel the need to come on a forum like this to question whether others consider it reasonable) then it probably comes down to there being no clear answer. And whether the ticket is valid for the journey or not will just depend on what a guard or ticket inspector on the day judges to be reasonable, which may also come down to what has historically considered to be reasonable. I just don't know!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Practically, for right or wrong...

Northern being Northern and (see other threads) many staff having this (incorrect) idea that overnight BoJ (or non-BoJ BoJ ) is not allowed on any ticket would say to me that the OP is very likely to be challenged on this.

If they are, they would be *very* well advised to pay the fare requested and take it up with Northern later, as otherwise having to defend this in a Court (or pay an £80 Penalty Fake) is highly likely.

 

[AlterEgo]

I disagree with this to a large extent - IMHO the break of journey restriction would be meaningless if the passenger could just decide whether it was reasonable to stop overnight or not. It's quite a different scenario from that with the effective 2-day validity on the outward portion for Off-Peak Returns that don't have a break of journey restriction.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just re-reading that and I think I was not very clear. Of course the passenger must decide whether it's reasonable to break overnight - it would be daft to have to ask for permission every time, and if he/she has no doubt that his/her plans are reasonable, there probably won't be any problem. I just mean that in deciding whether it's reasonable, the passenger should ideally take into account what an average, reasonable person might consider reasonable.

But I suppose that's very difficult in practice because if something seems perfectly reasonable to you then it might not occur to you that others may find it unreasonable. However if you have doubts whether it's reasonable (evidenced, perhaps, by the fact you might feel the need to come on a forum like this to question whether others consider it reasonable) then it probably comes down to there being no clear answer. And whether the ticket is valid for the journey or not will just depend on what a guard or ticket inspector on the day judges to be reasonable, which may also come down to what has historically considered to be reasonable. I just don't know!

Yes, I agree with a lot of what you've said there. If it were me, I'd definitely consider the "reasonable man" test. The journey should not be broken for any reason other than to stop overnight because it's not feasible to continue. That doesn't mean "no timetables services have to exist", of course.

It is not considered a break of journey to stop overnight because it's unreasonable to complete the journey in a single day. So the restriction on BoJ doesn't muddy the waters in my view.

 

[Haywain]

That's not the intention of the rule at all, it was for journeys that was unreasonable to undertake. In this case it would be reasonable to start the journey on the next day or commence it earlier. This is just a way of saving money, which again is not the reason the rule on Bo J is there. And it does not say it is up to the customers discretion either! if it was there would not be any break of journey restrictions, as every customer would claim they were using an impossible journey time to take advantage. I doubt if anyone will care or notice on this example, but this is exactly the sort of thing that will lead to a rewriting of the rules.

Whatever the intention of the rule, there has been clear internal communication within parts (at least) of the rail industry that the interpretation of it should err in favour of the customer and it is for no-one else to judge what is 'reasonable' for each customer. Individual circumstances will vary from one person to the next and where and when a journey is (not) broken overnight could depend on the need to eat and/or sleep at certain times, the availability of suitable accommodation and many other factors. For those reasons, only the customer can be equipped to decide what is or is not reasonable.

 

[Merseysider]

Thanks for all opinions so far. I had a play around on NRE (via=LIV&avd=NLW) and got an itinerary for the same ticket I had, on the route I took, just on different trains. It started with the 23:30 from Chester to Hooton and then the 05:39 the next day. Increasing interchange times at LIV and MCO/MAN would of course offer further options.

Neil, your post came just in time... I couldn't be bothered with the hassle of dealing with Northern's various incompetent outsourced departments so avoided having it checked on all but one occasion, which passed uneventfully.

Perhaps this is something that would be better off not formally clarified either way, just in case.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Thanks for all opinions so far. I had a play around on NRE (via=LIV&avd=NLW) and got an itinerary for the same ticket I had, on the route I took, just on different trains. It started with the 23:30 from Chester to Hooton and then the 05:39 the next day. Increasing interchange times at LIV and MCO/MAN would of course offer further options.

Neil, your post came just in time... I couldn't be bothered with the hassle of dealing with Northern's various incompetent outsourced departments so avoided having it checked on all but one occasion, which passed uneventfully.

Perhaps this is something that would be better off not formally clarified either way, just in case.

It should be noted of course that there are no mapped routes in the routeing guide for journeys from Chester to Salford Crescent via Liverpool (Permitted routes on maps JG, JK+NR, MJ). So not sure why it is showing as permitted via Liverpool in the first place - unless I am missing something.

EDIT - Ignore that. Mis read something. You are correct, it is valid via LIV and WAC but not NLW. How Odd. Also odd is that CTR - Manchester Group has different routeing permissions to CTR - SLD!

 

[Merseysider]

It should be noted of course that there are no mapped routes in the routeing guide for journeys from Chester to Salford Crescent via Liverpool (Permitted routes on maps JG, JK+NR, MJ). So not sure why it is showing as permitted via Liverpool in the first place - unless I am missing something.

EDIT - Ignore that. Mis read something. You are correct, it is valid via LIV and WAC but not NLW. How Odd. Also odd is that CTR - Manchester Group has different routeing permissions to CTR - SLD!

Very odd that Chester - Manchester isn't valid via Liverpool: it's a perfectly reasonable route and doesn't undercut any intermediate fares. Perhaps our friends at ATOC could add a mapped route for this?

If the RG was recursive, these situations wouldn't arise as often!