Airline Cabin Crew Safety Critical?

[notadriver]

Are Cabin Crew safety critical ? The suggestion is other than being shown how to close a door they do nothing remotely similar to a train guard?


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[northwichcat]

There's lot of emergency situations which cabin crew are trained for which train guards are not. What training does a train guard have for the train going in to the sea or there being a lack of oxygen on the train?

A train guard can be selling/checking tickets 30 seconds before arrival, while cabin crew will have had to ensure all luggage is stored safely for landing, everyone is in their seats with seat belts fastened and tray tables in the upright position, no-one is using electronic devices and the toilets are locked out-of-use around 20 minutes before arrival.

Cabin crews also have to ensure they have an accurate count of the number of passengers on board so that in the event of an emergency evacuation they can check that everyone is safe. Guards would only have a rough idea of how many people are on board.

 

[AlterEgo]

Are Cabin Crew safety critical ? The suggestion is other than being shown how to close a door they do nothing remotely similar to a train guard?


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Cabin crew are responsible for the safety of the cabin. Flights of certain sizes cannot run without a member of cabin crew.

They close and secure doors, ensure passengers are briefed on safety procedures, are responsible for implementing evacuation procedures in the event of an emergency, and so on.

 

[fowler9]

Are Cabin Crew safety critical ? The suggestion is other than being shown how to close a door they do nothing remotely similar to a train guard?


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Yes they are, if there aren't enough cabin crew for the type of aircraft it doesn't go anywhere, and not because they can't do the duty free run or pass out drinks.

My sister is cabin crew and the training is pretty intensive. Under water training, putting out fires, terrorist situations, illness, restraining idiots etc. etc. etc. They also have to be trained and qualified to work the type of aircraft they are on, my sister couldn't just get thrown on a 737 and do a shift. The hours they work are strictly monitored as is misuse of alcohol or drugs, purely for safety, not so they don't look rough for the passengers.

 

[coppercapped]

ICAO lays down requirements for cabin crew competency in "The ICAO Cabin Crew Safety Training Manual" which includes the following topics:

• Cabin Crew Safety Training Requirements and Qualifications
• Training Facilities and Devices
• Competency-based Approach to Cabin Crew SafetyTraining
• Aviation Indoctrination Training
• Normal Operations Training
• Abnormal and Emergency Situations Training
• Dangerous Goods Training
• Human Performance Training
• Cabin Health and First Aid Training
• Aviation Security Training
• Safety Management System Training
• Fatigue Management Training
• In-Charge Cabin Crew Member Training
• Management Aspects of the Cabin Crew Safety Training Programme.

There are legal requirements for the number of cabin crew required for the number of passengers carried which is linked to the number of emergency exits. Planes burn more easily than trains and the passengers tend to be higher above the ground...

 

[northwichcat]

Yes they are, if there aren't enough cabin crew for the type of aircraft it doesn't go anywhere, and not because they can't do the duty free run or pass out drinks.

My sister is cabin crew and the training is pretty intensive. Under water training, putting out fires, terrorist situations, illness, restraining idiots etc. etc. etc. They also have to be trained and qualified to work the type of aircraft they are on, my sister couldn't just get thrown on a 737 and do a shift. The hours they work are strictly monitored as is misuse of alcohol or drugs, purely for safety, not so they don't look rough for the passengers.

I think because good customer skills is seen as important to be a member of cabin crew and there's a lot of youngish female members of cabin crew, a lot of people wrongly think they are there for customer service opposed to safety. However, a lot of people also think train guards are nothing more than someone who checks and sells tickets even though you wouldn't get that impression on here and if anyone did suggest that there would be a lot of angry responses.

 

[daikilo]

It varies between operators, but there is a distinction between those on board with safety critical tasks and those without. I am only aware of one carrier whose crews wear badges identifying which group they are in and that is Air France, but there may be others. I do not know whether this is linked to training, salaries or simply their activities on a given flight.

Safety critical usually refers to emergency situations such as evacuation.

 

[fowler9]

I think because good customer skills is seen as important to be a member of cabin crew and there's a lot of youngish female members of cabin crew, a lot of people wrongly think they are there for customer service opposed to safety. However, a lot of people also think train guards are nothing more than someone who checks and sells tickets even though you wouldn't get that impression on here and if anyone did suggest that there would be a lot of angry responses.

I agree mate. It was at a pretty young age that I realised that a lot of the staff on the railways are actually there to do a lot more than sell you a ticket etc. I think I was about 14 or 15 when me and my brother missed the last train down the West Coast from Glasgow because our train from Edinburgh was delayed by footy agro. The station Manager at Glasgow Central, Mr Colquhoun, sorted us out food, and for us to get on a sleeper which made an additional stop so our parents could pick us up. It meant a lot to me and I have realised ever since then that there is a lot more to a job on the railways than just checking tickets and taking money. The guards and the drivers and the rest of the staff will keep you alive when it all goes to plop. Same goes for Cabin Crew.

I mean there you go, I even remember the guys name at Glasgow Central and that is over 25 years ago. He made a difference. I have met plenty of guards as well who have helped me out in bad situations since then.

At the end of the day many people are ignorant (And happy to be so) and choose not to pay attention to what goes in to moving so many people around safely. That is why the roads with so many individuals deciding to do things their own way are statistically more dangerous. It is also why I will support my mates who work on the railways in their campaigns against DOO, without wanting to go off subject. It really grinds my gears when I read in the press about how it is an argument over who shuts the doors. (Think I have gone full circle there to cabin crew just being trained to shut the doors, ha ha).

 

[Phil.]

I agree mate. It was at a pretty young age that I realised that a lot of the staff on the railways are actually there to do a lot more than sell you a ticket etc. I think I was about 14 or 15 when me and my brother missed the last train down the West Coast from Glasgow because our train from Edinburgh was delayed by footy agro. The station Manager at Glasgow Central, Mr Colquhoun, sorted us out food, and for us to get on a sleeper which made an additional stop so our parents could pick us up. It meant a lot to me and I have realised ever since then that there is a lot more to a job on the railways than just checking tickets and taking money. The guards and the drivers and the rest of the staff will keep you alive when it all goes to plop. Same goes for Cabin Crew.

I mean there you go, I even remember the guys name at Glasgow Central and that is over 25 years ago. He made a difference. I have met plenty of guards as well who have helped me out in bad situations since then.

At the end of the day many people are ignorant (And happy to be so) and choose not to pay attention to what goes in to moving so many people around safely. That is why the roads with so many individuals deciding to do things their own way are statistically more dangerous. It is also why I will support my mates who work on the railways in their campaigns against DOO, without wanting to go off subject. It really grinds my gears when I read in the press about how it is an argument over who shuts the doors. (Think I have gone full circle there to cabin crew just being trained to shut the doors, ha ha).

A lovely story of how people can help but nothing requiring safety critical railway staff nor is it comparable with flight crew preparing passengers for a night ditching.
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Yes they are, if there aren't enough cabin crew for the type of aircraft it doesn't go anywhere, and not because they can't do the duty free run or pass out drinks.

My sister is cabin crew and the training is pretty intensive. Under water training, putting out fires, terrorist situations, illness, restraining idiots etc. etc. etc. They also have to be trained and qualified to work the type of aircraft they are on, my sister couldn't just get thrown on a 737 and do a shift. The hours they work are strictly monitored as is misuse of alcohol or drugs, purely for safety, not so they don't look rough for the passengers.

And your sister is almost certainly getting paid less than a Eurostar/VTWC/VTWC Train Manager/Conductor.

 

[notadriver]

A lovely story of how people can help but nothing requiring safety critical railway staff nor is it comparable with flight crew preparing passengers for a night ditching.
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And your sister is almost certainly getting paid less than a Eurostar/VTWC/VTWC Train Manager/Conductor.

My weak argument to that is there will be many cabin crew on the aircraft to pay for but a train only needs one guard to operate (or in some cases no guard at all) *grabs coat and runs*


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[the sniper]

And your sister is almost certainly getting paid less than a Eurostar/VTWC/VTWC Train Manager/Conductor.

Given how many ex-cabin crew get taken on by TOCs, particularly on VT, there's a good chance she could end up as one of the latter if she wanted to...

 

[fowler9]

A lovely story of how people can help but nothing requiring safety critical railway staff nor is it comparable with flight crew preparing passengers for a night ditching.
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And your sister is almost certainly getting paid less than a Eurostar/VTWC/VTWC Train Manager/Conductor.

Is there any point to what you said or did you just want to tell me stuff I already knew?

 

[Phil.]

Is there any point to what you said or did you just want to tell me stuff I already knew?

Well, at the risk of insulting you - which I have no intention of - the original poster opened up a discussion about whether airline cabin crew were "safety critical" or not. That led to you relating a tale of how you were looked after by station staff after getting stranded. My point was that people don't have to be "safety critical" to arrange such help.

 

[fowler9]

Well, at the risk of insulting you - which I have no intention of - the original poster opened up a discussion about whether airline cabin crew were "safety critical" or not. That led to you relating a tale of how you were looked after by station staff after getting stranded. My point was that people don't have to be "safety critical" to arrange such help.

My point was that it interested me in what the role of railway staff was. I think I said that. Apologies for snapping at you.

 

[EssexGonzo]

My weak argument to that is there will be many cabin crew on the aircraft to pay for but a train only needs one guard to operate (or in some cases no guard at all) *grabs coat and runs*


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Well, 95% + of the trains that I travel on have only a driver so I would suggest that there's no safety critical role for a second member of staff, so cabin crew being paid less than a guard is just nuts.

Some of those are 12 coach trains, up to a 90 minute journey, so not just metro/short hop journeys. I've never felt unsafe. And the drivers do a top job of opening and closing the doors - their skill makes it look easy.

On the longer distance trains I travel on such as ECML, I can see a customer service role for the second member of staff. I don't get the safety argument for some lines (such as Southern) where it's deemed safe not to have them on others. Is Essex safer than Sussex? In union speak it obviously is.

 

[PermitToTravel]

The airlines seem to like utilising cabin crew to provide customer service functions in their down time; but no TOC has yet had conductors push the trolley through the train selling food and drink. I wonder why that is

 

[Starmill]

The airlines seem to like utilising cabin crew to provide customer service functions in their down time; but no TOC has yet had conductors push the trolley through the train selling food and drink. I wonder why that is

CrossCountry train managers often prepare hot drinks and deliver snacks or cans of pop etc. for passengers in First Class when there are no other retail staff onboard, or when they're stuck at the opposite end of the train due to frequent gross overcrowding.

 

[northwichcat]

The airlines seem to like utilising cabin crew to provide customer service functions in their down time; but no TOC has yet had conductors push the trolley through the train selling food and drink. I wonder why that is

Once the plane is airborne the cabin crew already know everyone is on the right plane and everyone has paid for their journey. On the train a conductor usually has a job to do to ensure that is the case after each and every station.
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It varies between operators, but there is a distinction between those on board with safety critical tasks and those without. I am only aware of one carrier whose crews wear badges identifying which group they are in and that is Air France, but there may be others. I do not know whether this is linked to training, salaries or simply their activities on a given flight.

Safety critical usually refers to emergency situations such as evacuation.

I get the impression on an aircraft (which will have at least 1 member of cabin crew for every 50 seats) that there's always one sort of cabin crew team leader/manager.

I don't know if it's because of the airlines I've used but flights within Europe seem to, on average, have younger cabin crew members than transatlantic flights. Do transatlantic carriers usually require more experience than shorter distance carriers?

 

[AlterEgo]

CrossCountry train managers often prepare hot drinks and deliver snacks or cans of pop etc. for passengers in First Class when there are no other retail staff onboard, or when they're stuck at the opposite end of the train due to frequent gross overcrowding.

That's because they're top blokes and ladies; it's not actually in their job description.
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I get the impression on an aircraft (which will have at least 1 member of cabin crew for every 50 seats) that there's always one sort of cabin crew team leader/manager.

I don't know if it's because of the airlines I've used but flights within Europe seem to, on average, have younger cabin crew members than transatlantic flights. Do transatlantic carriers usually require more experience than shorter distance carriers?

There is usually a senior cabin crew member on any flight with several crew members. They are in overall charge of the cabin. In olden times they were called the Purser and whatever they said, went.

You'll find that a lot of older staff work long haul because it requires them to be away for days at a time. Typically, they might have grown up children who don't need care. European flights can often mean only short night stops or none at all, much more conducive to raising a family.

 

[WestCoast]

It's a highly multifunctional role, a mix of safety-related duties, customer service and operational tasks. It's probably somewhere between that of a train guard and an onboard catering host, edging towards the former. The Captain is responsible for the overall safety of the aircraft, but ensuring cabin safety is delegated to the highly trained cabin crew. It's debatable about "safety critical" since that has different parameters on an aircraft to a train, but it won't be the Captain coordinating an emergency evacuation.

Apart from the core duties, the tasks depend on the airline. On many low-cost airlines, the cabin crew are actually also in a commission-based sales role and it's not an insignificant part of their renumeration package. So yes a safety role can also involve selling scratch cards. Ryanair also used to make one member of the cabin crew help with the boarding process in the terminal!
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There is usually a senior cabin crew member on any flight with several crew members. They are in overall charge of the cabin. In olden times they were called the Purser and whatever they said, went.

You'll find that a lot of older staff work long haul because it requires them to be away for days at a time. Typically, they might have grown up children who don't need care. European flights can often mean only short night stops or none at all, much more conducive to raising a family.

Yes, the purser is often now known as the "senior cabin crew member" or "lead crew" or words to that effect. On most short-haul services, they are always the "number one" in the cabin, with "numbers 2, 3, 4, 5 etc" distributed to the junior crew. They often make the announcements over the PA and are in charge of the other crew members.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The airlines seem to like utilising cabin crew to provide customer service functions in their down time; but no TOC has yet had conductors push the trolley through the train selling food and drink. I wonder why that is

VTEC are planning on merging the train guard and crew leader positions...

 

[welshpax]

I can only speak for Emirates as that is the airline I use the most, but they are still called pursers there, then each cabin (First, Business and Economy) has a Senior who looks after the staff in that particular cabin.

 

[AlterEgo]

VTEC are planning on merging the train guard and crew leader positions...

I doubt you'll see them serving the tea...

 

[ian959]

I don't know if it's because of the airlines I've used but flights within Europe seem to, on average, have younger cabin crew members than transatlantic flights. Do transatlantic carriers usually require more experience than shorter distance carriers?

Some airlines require cabin crew to have completed X years on domestic flights before they are allowed on international flights. Once the cabin crew are qualified for international, then seniority rules: more experienced air crew tend to get the better international flights.

Purely international airlines tend to use relatively inexperienced air crew on short haul flights and more experienced crew on long haul flights. Principally this is due to apparently due to safety reasons, although I would have assumed this to be counter intuitive since short haul crews tend to make more take offs and landings, which are the more dangerous parts of flight.

Very much depends upon the airline as to which way they go and their marketing strategy.

I know of one airline whose policy it is to use younger cabin crew for long haul flights and consign older cabin crew to short haul flights, simply for marketing reasons.

 

[Mojo]

You'll find that a lot of older staff work long haul because it requires them to be away for days at a time. Typically, they might have grown up children who don't need care. European flights can often mean only short night stops or none at all, much more conducive to raising a family.

That's interesting, in my experience of travelling with BA it always seemed to me that the older members of staff tended to work the domestic and European flights whereas the younger ones seemed to be more prevalent on longhaul. I thought this was because the youngsters are doing the job to see the world and the oldies wanted to get home at night, lol.

 

[WestCoast]

That's interesting, in my experience of travelling with BA it always seemed to me that the older members of staff tended to work the domestic and European flights whereas the younger ones seemed to be more prevalent on longhaul. I thought this was because the youngsters are doing the job to see the world and the oldies wanted to get home at night, lol.

New recruits at BA actually join the 'Mixed Fleet' meaning that they work a mixture of short-haul and long-haul flights, unless they join Cityflyer at London City or Edinburgh.

 

[Mojo]

New recruits at BA actually join the 'Mixed Fleet' meaning that they work a mixture of short-haul and long-haul flights, unless they join Cityflyer at London City or Edinburgh.

l'm aware of that (and aware of how bad the terms are of these staff compared to the staff on legacy terms), however the point l was thinking is that do staff have the ability to either swap duties or request certain work?

 

[Phil.]

l'm aware of that (and aware of how bad the terms are of these staff compared to the staff on legacy terms), however the point l was thinking is that do staff have the ability to either swap duties or request certain work?

I knew an ex B.A. cabin crew rostering type when I was at Gatwick and she told me that swapping turns was a regular occurrence. Mind you, that was in the early
1990s so things my be different now.
Not sure if they did any of the four and five way swaps that Selhurst and Streatham Hill were infamous for though.

 

[welshpax]

Some airlines require cabin crew to have completed X years on domestic flights before they are allowed on international flights. Once the cabin crew are qualified for international, then seniority rules: more experienced air crew tend to get the better international flights.

Purely international airlines tend to use relatively inexperienced air crew on short haul flights and more experienced crew on long haul flights. Principally this is due to apparently due to safety reasons, although I would have assumed this to be counter intuitive since short haul crews tend to make more take offs and landings, which are the more dangerous parts of flight.

Very much depends upon the airline as to which way they go and their marketing strategy.

I know of one airline whose policy it is to use younger cabin crew for long haul flights and consign older cabin crew to short haul flights, simply for marketing reasons.

Again talking about Emirates, most cabin crew there are under 40.

They start off working Economy then after around 2.5yrs move up to Business then after another 3 years tend to move up to First.

From my chats to cabin crew during my travels, most people leave after about 6 years and go back to their own country.

The oldest cabin crew I ever encountered was flying from Orlando to Chicago in First about 6 years ago with American Airlines. The crew there were late 50's and have been in the airline for many years.

It gave a homely feel to the cabin and it was like having my mum looking after me

 

[AlterEgo]

Again talking about Emirates, most cabin crew there are under 40.

They start off working Economy then after around 2.5yrs move up to Business then after another 3 years tend to move up to First.

From my chats to cabin crew during my travels, most people leave after about 6 years and go back to their own country.

The oldest cabin crew I ever encountered was flying from Orlando to Chicago in First about 6 years ago with American Airlines. The crew there were late 50's and have been in the airline for many years.

It gave a homely feel to the cabin and it was like having my mum looking after me

AA have some positively elderly FAs. I flew from Central Illinois Regional to Chicago this week and the single FA was around seventy years old.
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Here's an AA FA that is eighty years old: http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2016/05/29/oldest-flight-attendant/

(Please ignore some of the disgusting and sexist comments at the bottom of that article...)