"The track is missing" - Help needed with working out what happened on my journey

[jednick]

I've always wondered what had happened with a journey I made about 12 years ago, now's my chance to ask you experts. I experienced my weirdest ever excuse for a delayed train.

I was making a late-evening journey from York to Birmingham on what was then Virgin Crosscountry.

We came to a sudden stop, I think between York and Doncaster, maybe not too far from the Selby area.

The train stood stationary for maybe 15 minutes and then a voice came over the speakers saying something like "I'm sorry for the delay to your journey. There appears to be no track in front of us".

I am absolutely not joking!

After another wait of perhaps 20 minutes, another announcement was made stating the train driver had got special permission to reverse direction back up the track. We then reversed direction for a mile or two, stopped, and then carried forward again along another route to get us to Doncaster.

I told my friend at work, an ex-railwayman, and he believed the track was missing but refused to believe me when I said the train had reversed direction back up the line. He said it would absolutely not be allowed.

So I ask you all:

1. What circumstance would make the train stop and the conductor announce "The track in front of us is missing"? Had somebody actually stolen a piece of the East Coast Main Line? Just a small portion maybe? Why else would it be "missing"?

2. Is it entirely appropriate, under that circumstance, that they would stop all trains on that line, and get special permission for my train to reverse direction along the piece of track it just travelled on for a mile or two, so it could continue forward on some diversionary route?

 

[contrad!ction]

1. What circumstance would make the train stop and the conductor announce "The track in front of us is missing"? Had somebody actually stolen a piece of the East Coast Main Line? Just a small portion maybe? Why else would it be "missing"?

2. Is it entirely appropriate, under that circumstance, that they would stop all trains on that line, and get special permission for my train to reverse direction along the piece of track it just travelled on for a mile or two, so it could continue forward on some diversionary route?

1. Sounds like a broken rail, see here for a RAIB report with some pics/explanations etc...

2. Yes, all covered in the rule book (module TW7 if you're really bored/interested )

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Had somebody actually stolen a piece of the East Coast Main Line? Just a small portion maybe? Why else would it be "missing"?

There was a small spate of Pandrol clip thefts a few years ago.

Memory doesn't serve me particularly well in remembering when or where they were lifted, but I seem to remember the caravan utilising nomadic travellers were in the vicinity and signalling cable was going missing at a ferocious rate at the same time.

 

[broadgage]

I doubt that such an announcement would be allowed these days ! "operating difficulties" is the usual term for such c**k ups.

I suspect that the track had been lifted in order to replace with new, and that the train was incorrectly routed onto the track in question.

Reversing on a running line is not normally allowed, due to the risk of collision with a following train that otherwise would have been a safe distance behind.
Permission can be granted in exceptional cases, after ensuring firstly that the track is clear, including a safety margin, and secondly that the signals and points are set such that the track will remain clear.

 

[ainsworth74]

Reversing on a running line is not normally allowed, due to the risk of collision with a following train that otherwise would have been a safe distance behind.
Permission can be granted in exceptional cases, after ensuring firstly that the track is clear, including a safety margin, and secondly that the signals and points are set such that the track will remain clear.

One assumes that this isn't an issue on lines which are equipped for bi-directional running?

 

[Sunset route]

I doubt that such an announcement would be allowed these days ! "operating difficulties" is the usual term for such c**k ups.

I suspect that the track had been lifted in order to replace with new, and that the train was incorrectly routed onto the track in question.

Reversing on a running line is not normally allowed, due to the risk of collision with a following train that otherwise would have been a safe distance behind.
Permission can be granted in exceptional cases, after ensuring firstly that the track is clear, including a safety margin, and secondly that the signals and points are set such that the track will remain clear.

We've had quite a few trains go back wrong line at my location over the years, in some cases moving one at a time when several have been trapped in a queue. All can be done safely as long as all safety comms and the rule book get followed.

We also work single line working on a regular basis as we have at true 24/7 railway in my part of the world.

 

[Railsigns]

One assumes that this isn't an issue on lines which are equipped for bi-directional running?

It is still an issue, because the direction of running on a portion of bi-directional line (between places where there are crossovers) cannot normally be reversed until that whole portion of line is entirely clear of trains.

 

[brompton rail]

Not quite the same as the incident when a XC HST from the West Country to Leeds was diverted away from the Wakefield Westgate line because of a problem. It was sent via the S and K (Swinton and Knottingley) line towards York.

On the approach to Kottingley the signalman set the road into the 'Merry Go Round" track for Ferrybridge Power Station. For reasons I have never heard explained the HST driver took the feather and soon stopped, but was then faced with contacting the box to gain consent to reverse onto the main line and continue to York.

It wasn't unknown afterwards for passengers to ask the conductor on similar Leeds bound trains if the train went to Ferrybridge!

We all make mistakes in life but for this driver this one was a bit too public.

Not sure if this under BR or in early years of Virgin XC.

 

[contrad!ction]

It is still an issue, because the direction of running on a portion of bi-directional line (between places where there are crossovers) cannot normally be reversed until that whole portion of line is entirely clear of trains.

Just to add to this, at our place if we cannot get/are running against the direction of flow arrows (on our SIMBID/bi-di lines) then working by pilotman must be introduced in all circumstances.

 

[PhilipRdNGauge]

I remember coming back from Sheffield on a special about 20 years ago & having to wait an hour at a junction in North London (Dudding Hill maybe?), because the track had been lifted in front of us. Apparent somebody had forgotten that this special was working & so an engineering gang had been given possession & started doing their thing.

 

[carriageline]

I doubt that such an announcement would be allowed these days ! "operating difficulties" is the usual term for such c**k ups.



I suspect that the track had been lifted in order to replace with new, and that the train was incorrectly routed onto the track in question.



Reversing on a running line is not normally allowed, due to the risk of collision with a following train that otherwise would have been a safe distance behind.

Permission can be granted in exceptional cases, after ensuring firstly that the track is clear, including a safety margin, and secondly that the signals and points are set such that the track will remain clear.

It would seem you don't really know what your talking about!

A train getting routed into a possession would be quite obvious, and would have much bigger consequences than this! That's quite clearly not what happened here

Wrong direction moves are quite a common occurance, and as a signaller I can authorise that without getting permission from those "up stairs". Of course, you can't just do it for a laugh, but if the circumstances are there then it will be done.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ps (for OP) trains generally can't reverse (IE driver in front can, train going backwards) unless very set rules and procedures are in place (AKA propelling) A wrong direction move (IE driver has changed end, and is travelling back the way he came with authority from the signaller) are a different kettle of fish!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bald Rick]

There was a small spate of Pandrol clip thefts a few years ago.

Memory doesn't serve me particularly well in remembering when or where they were lifted, but I seem to remember the caravan utilising nomadic travellers were in the vicinity and signalling cable was going missing at a ferocious rate at the same time.

Agree - I think it was this, as it was happening up that way. Approx 12 years ago fits with my memory as well, as I was working in Track Renewals at the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not quite the same as the incident when a XC HST from the West Country to Leeds was diverted away from the Wakefield Westgate line because of a problem. It was sent via the S and K (Swinton and Knottingley) line towards York.

On the approach to Kottingley the signalman set the road into the 'Merry Go Round" track for Ferrybridge Power Station. For reasons I have never heard explained the HST driver took the feather and soon stopped, but was then faced with contacting the box to gain consent to reverse onto the main line and continue to York.

It wasn't unknown afterwards for passengers to ask the conductor on similar Leeds bound trains if the train went to Ferrybridge!

 

[ComUtoR]

Sometimes the Sig doesn't tell you your going wrong road

 

[contrad!ction]

Sometimes the Sig doesn't tell you your going wrong road

Our box instructions say we should (well for SIMBIDs...) so profuse apologies

 

[theironroad]

Fully signalled bi-directional working, simbids and wrong direction movements are all very different things.

 

[Mugby]

I had a similar experience in the same area and around the same time. I was on a Midland Mainline (as was) HST from Sheffield to Leeds one Tuesday night. It was routed via the S&K and turned off at Moorthorpe. Just after passing South Kirkby Junction we stopped. It transpired there was a broken down freight train in front. Apparently it was too late to pass the HST round it on the down loop.

After standing for quite some time, it was announced that the train would reverse to Doncaster. I imagine there must be a crossover in the South Kirkby area which it used to gain the Up line to Don. After reversing again at Don, we actually went to York and reversed there yet again, finally arriving in Leeds after midnight.
Why we couldn't have used the Hambleton curve, I never found out, unless MML drivers didn't sign that section of line.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

GNER mk4 derailed outside Kings Cross P5 i think as a result of maintenance work took out part of the points that the mk4 was routed onto....

Oops!!!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How often does it happen where there's two possible routes between two stations, the driver signs route A but the signaller routes the train along route B which the driver doesn't sign?

 

[yorkie]

How often does it happen where there's two possible routes between two stations, the driver signs route A but the signaller routes the train along route B which the driver doesn't sign?

Very rarely! If there are two realistic, sensible routes then it will usually be the case that the driver signs them both, for example between London Victoria (VIC) and Bromley South (BMS), drivers sign both routes, via Catford and via Herne Hill, and drivers are instructed to take either route without any need to question the route if it's not the booked route.

 

[najaB]

Very rarely! If there are two realistic, sensible routes...

Of course, that will vary depending on the definition of 'realistic' and 'sensible'. By way of an example, some might think it realistic and sensible for all of VTEC's Edinburgh drivers to sign Edinburgh-Newcastle via Carlisle, but I suspect that they don't.

(Though, knowing how these things go, my random example pulled from thin air will probably turn out to be wrong!)