Print at home query

[richw]

So it seems from a Twitter discussion that some of their etickets allow showing on mobile devices and some can't. How does a normal customer who had one today that allows mobile use, and then tomorrow gets one that can't. Surely this isn't acceptable as a system?

 

[miami]

Instead I was advised by the ticket desk that my e-Ticket was perfectly valid on my phone and I should show it to the guard.

And as you've been authorised to travel then that should be the end of it. However the railway industry is set up to believe guilty until proven innocent.

Aside from customer relations, the only thought I would have is If the tickets were open flexible tickets, and if the "print at home" option doesn't remove your rights, you should be able to get a refund (minus a small admin fee) for an unused ticket.

However if they were an "advanced, this train only" ticket then you're at the mercy of customer relations.

 

[Haywain]

Would love to know where this £5 charge for printing at stations has come from. How to I create a £5 fare? I will just print them at the tickets office is some one has had problems printing their ticket just need 15 minutes to do it that's all.

East Coast used to do exactly that - charge £5 for printing 'Print at Home' tickets. Like many things, it was accounted for by issuing of a Sundry coupon. In my view there is nothing wrong with charging a small fee for doing something the customer could have done themselves, but someone in East Coast evidently disagreed.

 

[snail]

Really? I see no discussion about this. I do see that the OP purchased a ticket on 2nd August. If it's the same as my Virgin e-ticket, arriving on 8th August, he will have an email containing the e-ticket

Have you not read the rest of the thread? In particular (my emphasis)

From their website
Quote:
To make your life a little easier, from 3 August 2016, you’ll also be able to save your e-ticket as a PDF on your mobile to use, as well as use our mobile app to access your ticket.

So your ticket from the 8th was not available when the OP booked.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Have you not read the rest of the thread? In particular (my emphasis)
So your ticket from the 8th was not available when the OP booked.

I did, though I admit to skipping vast tracts of text copied from the website and failed to connect the embedded date in your smaller quote with the OP's purchase date from the top of the thread. Perhaps I was waylaid with the extraneous posts about airline boarding cards?

It's now clear the OP had a Print@Home Ticket that he wasn't able to print before travel and was advised by a member of staff (rightly or wrongly) that he could travel.

Perhaps the staff member was confused with the new e-tickets coming in, or was just hoping to get the OP off his hands.

Either way, the OP had permission to travel, had already paid for the journey and was charged again for the lack of a printout. Shameful behaviour from VTWC not to correct this and one for Transport Focus and/or the small claims court, if all the necessary preliminaries fail to achieve a result.

 

[319321]

I would reccommend you seek a copy of all the CCTV Footage of the incident and their correspondence log. Their privacy policy is here. It would be quicker to send them a specific letter though.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Wigangooner, please disregard this message:

. . . . However the railway industry is set up to believe guilty until proven innocent.

That may well be paulweaver's true perception, and/or sincere understanding.
But it is factually wrong, and as such is an unsound response to your request for help in this sub-forum.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Aside from customer relations, the only thought I would have is If the tickets were open flexible tickets, and if the "print at home" option doesn't remove your rights, you should be able to get a refund (minus a small admin fee) for an unused ticket.

However if they were an "advanced, this train only" ticket then you're at the mercy of customer relations.

The OP was permitted to use the P@H ticket on a phone by a member of staff. As such, they used that legally, and the one they bought on board is unused. If it came to it, I'd be returning that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Wigangooner, please disregard this message:That may well be paulweaver's true perception, and/or sincere understanding.
But it is factually wrong, and as such is an unsound response to your request for help in this sub-forum.

Pot, meet Kettle.

 

[richw]

The OP was permitted to use the P@H ticket on a phone by a member of staff. As such, they used that legally, and the one they bought on board is unused. If it came to it, I'd be returning that.

Will that staff member stand up and testify (s)he gave authority to travel? If not there is no proof authority to travel was given. In such situations should we get written proof of authority, video record the authority being given on a mobile phone? Unfortunately staff who give such verbal authority rarely stand up and support the passenger when an RPI catches them later on the journey.

 

[Master29]

I did, though I admit to skipping vast tracts of text copied from the website and failed to connect the embedded date in your smaller quote with the OP's purchase date from the top of the thread. Perhaps I was waylaid with the extraneous posts about airline boarding cards?

It's now clear the OP had a Print@Home Ticket that he wasn't able to print before travel and was advised by a member of staff (rightly or wrongly) that he could travel.

Perhaps the staff member was confused with the new e-tickets coming in, or was just hoping to get the OP off his hands.

Either way, the OP had permission to travel, had already paid for the journey and was charged again for the lack of a printout. Shameful behaviour from VTWC not to correct this and one for Transport Focus and/or the small claims court, if all the necessary preliminaries fail to achieve a result.

It has to be said that is a poor call by VT. I couldn`t help but sympathize with the OP here.

 

[AlterEgo]

I would reccommend you seek a copy of all the CCTV Footage of the incident and their correspondence log. Their privacy policy is here. It would be quicker to send them a specific letter though.

I'm not sure what CCTV would prove, other than that a conversation - nature unknown - was had at X point in time.

 

[Flamingo]

Just to take issue with Roche, it's not that staff won't support the passenger, as the staff have no idea about what happens later on.

Just to echo, if you ever get told anything, get it in writing - most staff who can authorise travel will have access to something to validate that permission, be it a stamp to endorse the ticket, or a voucher or pad of some sort.

If they haven't, I would be loath to take their unsupported word that anybody encountered at a later point in the journey will accept the same excuse.

I remember one lady who approached me on a platform, asking if she could travel two hours early on an Advance - I told her no, go to the booking office to sort it out. A short while later on the train, she insisted she had been told she could travel by "The man on the platform", and then came out with "Are you calling me a liar?". She was most indignant when I said "Yes, because it was me you spoke to".

 

[miami]

Just to take issue with rickw, it's not that staff won't support the passenger, as the staff have no idea about what happens later on. It's not conspiracy, it's just that nobody is going to waste time trying to find a (possibly mythical) random member of staff.

For an easy life, see if your unused print at home ticket is refundable, https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/refunds tells you to "give our refunds team a call on 03445 56 56 50". Given how late you booked your ticket it wouldn't surprise me if you booked a first open return for £475 (!!!!). If it is then the admin fee is something like £10.

There may be an issue if you managed to print while in London and used the return half later. If you booked two singles, for the same price that would be the best situation.

 

[319321]

Will that staff member stand up and testify (s)he gave authority to travel? If not there is no proof authority to travel was given. In such situations should we get written proof of authority, video record the authority being given on a mobile phone? Unfortunately staff who give such verbal authority rarely stand up and support the passenger when an RPI catches them later on the journey.

From my own experience and reading these kinds of threads, passengers need to video every interaction they have with the railway, otherwise the railway will say it didn't happen. This includes:

• recording videos of tickets being booked online, including the journey plans shown;
• recording videos of ticket machines being used, the tickets being printed and issued (necessary so you can show that a ticket didnt get printed, and yes it does mean filming every transaction as you don't know whether or not the printer will work before you start using it);
• recording videos of known malfunctions of the ticket machines so you can prove you didn't have the opportunity to buy a ticket before you travelled;
• recording videos of all the staff interactions you have, so that you can prove what the staff did or said.

I, for one, now turn my phone camera on as soon as I see any ticket inspectors, whether on the train or at barriers or blockades. I also film the collection of advance tickets. I rarely use a ticket office, but I would film any staff interaction I had there and make sure I recorded the ticket that they produced.

 

[Wigangooner]

I'm not sure what CCTV would prove, other than that a conversation - nature unknown - was had at X point in time.

well it would pose the question - "what was the conversation about and why did the customer point to the phone and look relieved" and of course would back up other evidence i.e. WhatsApp messages to my wife which state that I'd been given that incorrect advice.

Being honest, in the face of all the evidence I'm shocked VT wont even consider a refund. Hence why I sought your help

Thanks again all!

Graeme
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would reccommend you seek a copy of all the CCTV Footage of the incident and their correspondence log. Their privacy policy is here. It would be quicker to send them a specific letter though.

I asked VT Customer relations to check the CCTV and they refused - their reasoning being that they arent going to trouble BTP because of me.

Idiots.

 

[319321]

I asked VT Customer relations to check the CCTV and they refused - their reasoning being that they arent going to trouble BTP because of me.

Idiots.

AIUI, the BTP don't control the CCTV. For those companies I have had contact with, the CCTV is controlled and operated on their behalf by a contractor. BTP make their own requests to the contractor.

I actually wrote a longer post yesterday, but lost it and couldnt be bothered to retype in. If you are willing to spend £12 to get it, send the following template letter (replace the capitals with the correct data) by registered post with a cheque for £10 made payable to West Coast Trains Limited and proof of ID (as described in the letter).

As Flamingo says, it wont prove what was said, but it does prove that you did go to customer services (or ticket office wherever) and spoke to staff.

======================

The Data Controller
West Coast Trains Limited
The Battleship Building
179 Harrow Road
LONDON
W2 6NB

DATE August 2016

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to make a Subject Access Request under the provisions of Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998. The request is for the following CCTV Footage of myself:

• entering Wigan North Western Station at approximately TIME_HERE
• approaching the TICKET OFFICE / PODIUM at TIME HERE and speaking to a member of staff
• Waiting at the station from TIME HERE to TIME HERE around WHERE YOU WAITED HERE
• Boarding the TIME_HERE train to London Euston Station at PLATOFRM HERE, COACH HERE
• Footage of myself on the journey between Wigan North Western and Lonon Euston, where I sat in SEAT HERE. IF YOU DID SOMETHING LIKE GO TO THE BOG OR SHOP WRITE THAT HERE TOO.

TO help you identifiy myself, I am a ETHNICITY GENDER aged AGE with HAIR-COLOUR-HAIR TYPE hair, any my height is HEIGHT and my build is BUILD I was wearing TOP-LOGO-COLOUR, BOTTOM-LOGO-COLOUR, and had a BACKPACK-SUITCASE-PUG-ALIEN with me.

I am aware that you have an obligation to ensure that I am the person that that is the subject of this request. In order to allow you to fulfil this obligation, I have included a copy of my DRIVING LICENSE/PASSPORT with a photo on it showing my name. As proof of my address, I have included a photocopy of UTILITY BILL BANK STATEMENT ETC DATED IN THE PAST COUPLE OF MONTHS.

IF TRUE, INCLUDE THIS: I have also registered this name and address on your online Ticket Issuing System with these details so you can check those records.

I an also aware that you may charge a fee of up to £10 for fulfilling Subject Access Requests. Please find enclosed a dated and signed cheque made payable to WEST COAST RAILWAYS Ltd for this amount. This cheque should only be used to fulfil the statutory fee for this request - if no fee is payable it should not be cashed.

I am aware that CCTV footage is not held forever, and this request is for the data on your systems at the time that the request is made. Please can you ensure that this footage is secured at the earliest opportunity in case there is any delay in you servicing this request.

While your privacy policy mandates that a form should be filled in, however when I tried to request such a form on 18 August 2016 it was refused by customer services. The Information Commissioners Code of Practice makes it clear that it is not mandatory for a data subject to use a form issued by the data controller, and I believe I have included sufficient information here for you to identify the data I am requesting, sufficient proof of my identity and the statutory fee so this is a valid request.

By law, you should respond promptly. I have sent this request using 1st Class Registered post, so assuming you recieve this request on
DATE OF LETTER PLUS TWO DAYS HERE, you should respond by DATE OF LETTER PLUS FORTY TWO DAYS HERE.

Yours Faithfully,

The Passenger
===============================

Links:
Virigin Trains Entry in the Register of Data Controllers
Virgin Trains Privacy Policy
Information Commissioners Code of Practice for Subject Access Requests

 

[Llanigraham]

I asked VT Customer relations to check the CCTV and they refused - their reasoning being that they arent going to trouble BTP because of me.

Idiots.

CCTV in this situation is not going to show anything constructive, as it does not record sound, and pictures prove nothing.

Your final word is unwarranted.

 

[AlterEgo]

well it would pose the question - "what was the conversation about and why did the customer point to the phone and look relieved" and of course would back up other evidence i.e. WhatsApp messages to my wife which state that I'd been given that incorrect advice.

Being honest, in the face of all the evidence I'm shocked VT wont even consider a refund. Hence why I sought your help

Thanks again all!

Graeme
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I asked VT Customer relations to check the CCTV and they refused - their reasoning being that they arent going to trouble BTP because of me.

Idiots.

Firstly, you can request the CCTV under their privacy policy which was linked to in the quoted post. There is no need for BTP to get involved!

Secondly, I can hardly believe VT are being this bad. They usually refund at least in vouchers as a gesture of goodwill, regardless of the circumstances. The fundamental principle is that it's wrong for a customer to pay twice for the same journey. I'm surprised at their intransigence which is why I wonder if there are any other factors at play. (I used to work for VT a few years ago in their CR team so I know the internal culture, and what they'll usually agree to)

I would consider going to Transport Focus as advised previously. Best of luck.

 

[Wigangooner]

Firstly, you can request the CCTV under their privacy policy which was linked to in the quoted post. There is no need for BTP to get involved!

Secondly, I can hardly believe VT are being this bad. They usually refund at least in vouchers as a gesture of goodwill, regardless of the circumstances. The fundamental principle is that it's wrong for a customer to pay twice for the same journey. I'm surprised at their intransigence which is why I wonder if there are any other factors at play. (I used to work for VT a few years ago in their CR team so I know the internal culture, and what they'll usually agree to)

I would consider going to Transport Focus as advised previously. Best of luck.

I am also baffled by their refusal to provide a refund or some kind of recompense. I have raised it with transport focus, did so last week but not heard anything back yet.

I'm not sure what else I could have done, I did everything possible to avoid this happening and the incorrect advice given caused this.

Thanks all for your help! Its great to know I'm not alone in thinking this is an entirely bonkers situation.

Graeme

 

[najaB]

I asked VT Customer relations to check the CCTV and they refused - their reasoning being that they arent going to trouble BTP because of me.

Idiots.

I rather think you are overestimating the usefulness of CCTV in incidents like this. All it will show is that a conversation occurred, it won't provide any evidence as to the content of that conversation. For all anyone knows, the conversation could have been about asking for directions or the football scores.

 

[Wigangooner]

I rather think you are overestimating the usefulness of CCTV in incidents like this. All it will show is that a conversation occurred, it won't provide any evidence as to the content of that conversation. For all anyone knows, the conversation could have been about asking for directions or the football scores.

As per my previous comments, it will show me approaching the ticket desk, asking a question and showing them my phone, then looking relieved and thanking the person behind the counter. Couple that with other supporting evidence i.e. messages I sent my wife and its more conclusive.

In my opinion naturally, I'm no lawyer.

 

[richw]

As per my previous comments, it will show me approaching the ticket desk, asking a question and showing them my phone, then looking relieved and thanking the person behind the counter. Couple that with other supporting evidence i.e. messages I sent my wife and its more conclusive.

In my opinion naturally, I'm no lawyer.

Although no sound. body language and expressions will be clear.

This may be of interest to you.

https://www.gov.uk/request-cctv-footage-of-yourself

 

[najaB]

As per my previous comments, it will show me approaching the ticket desk, asking a question and showing them my phone, then looking relieved and thanking the person behind the counter. Couple that with other supporting evidence i.e. messages I sent my wife and its more conclusive.

In my opinion naturally, I'm no lawyer.

Fortunately there isn't a need to be a lawyer as this isn't going anywhere near a court. I totally understand where you are coming from, but CCTV isn't likely to be clear enough to show what was on your phone screen. So it is possible that the conversation was:
"Am I in time to make this connection?" *shows itinerary on screen*
"Yes, the trains are running on time."
"Cheers, thanks very much."

I don't for a moment doubt your story, and I'm disappointed that Virgin aren't offering at least a goodwill gesture, but I still think you are putting too much emphasis on CCTV evidence.

 

[Wigangooner]

Fortunately there isn't a need to be a lawyer as this isn't going anywhere near a court. I totally understand where you are coming from, but CCTV isn't likely to be clear enough to show what was on your phone screen. So it is possible that the conversation was:
"Am I in time to make this connection?" *shows itinerary on screen*
"Yes, the trains are running on time."
"Cheers, thanks very much."

I don't for a moment doubt your story, and I'm disappointed that Virgin aren't offering at least a goodwill gesture, but I still think you are putting too much emphasis on CCTV evidence.

I also have messages that I sent to my wife after which back up the conversation, I'm not relying 100% on the CCTV, its all supportive.

Thanks

Graeme

 

[najaB]

I also have messages that I sent to my wife after which back up the conversation, I'm not relying 100% on the CCTV, its all supportive.

Thanks

Graeme

I understand that, but you have two sets of weak evidence - CCTV that only shows that you spoke to staff about *something* and your messages to your wife about that conversation, based on your understanding of what was said.

Neither of them help your case if Virgin dog their heels in over this one.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Master29]

Wigangooner. You have my deepest sympathy here. I agree you have been poorly treated by Virgin but I concur with NajaB that any case is unlikely with this kind of evidence. I really think this is going to have to be put down to experience. The only thing I can suggest is a grovelling letter to them (even though they have behaved poorly) It may or may not work but you`d stand a much better chance than through digging your heals in. For the record I have dealt with Virgin customer service and they were very good. OK the letter was a grovel but in truth I wasn`t expecting them to do anything and they did refund my entire journey so worth a try.

 

[Wigangooner]

Wigangooner. You have my deepest sympathy here. I agree you have been poorly treated by Virgin but I concur with NajaB that any case is unlikely with this kind of evidence. I really think this is going to have to be put down to experience. The only thing I can suggest is a grovelling letter to them (even though they have behaved poorly) It may or may not work but you`d stand a much better chance than through digging your heals in. For the record I have dealt with Virgin customer service and they were very good. OK the letter was a grovel but in truth I wasn`t expecting them to do anything and they did refund my entire journey so worth a try.

I wish I could write off £237 to experience. Its not a cheap lesson!

regards

Graeme

 

[miami]

How much was your original print ticket? Was it a single or return?

 

[Spamcan81]

Airlines routinely advise that they have issued you with an eticket. Lufthansa have even registered the name of theirs as "etix" ®.

Most also say that you do not need to print the eticket and should quote the booking reference, if required, when checking in at the airport. The easiest way for most people to do this would be to display the confirmation email on their phone.

Indeed so. My three most recent holidays have been by courtesy of Ryanair and Easyjet e-tickets stored on my mobile phone.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The difference, of course, being that it is the boarding pass rather than the ticket which needs to be presented when boarding the aircraft.

I've had electronic boarding passes issued to my iPhone when using the online check in option. Has a Q-code thingy that is scanned from the screen at the gate.

 

[Wigangooner]

How much was your original print ticket? Was it a single or return?

Single, with a return on a 2nd ticket.

The single was £144 advance first class

Cheers

Graeme
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Indeed so. My three most recent holidays have been by courtesy of Ryanair and Easyjet e-tickets stored on my mobile phone.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I've had electronic boarding passes issued to my iPhone when using the online check in option. Has a Q-code thingy that is scanned from the screen at the gate.

Indeed the Print&Home Tickets have the QR code on it as well - which reinforced the comments made by the virgin station staff that the ticket on the phone would be sufficient to travel.