Police Use of Tasers

[Gutfright]

Many among you may be aware of the sad news that former footballer Dalian Atkinson has been killed by a police Taser.

Former footballer Dalian Atkinson has died after being shot with a Taser by police at his father's house.


Police said the weapon was deployed at about 01:30 BST in Telford, Shropshire after officers were called to a report of concern for a man's safety.

Mr Atkinson went into cardiac arrest on his way to hospital, where he was pronounced dead at about 03:00....

The killing of a Atkinson, a black man, by the police is unlikely to be recieved well by the controversial Black Lives Matter movement who have become active in the UK recently.

Tasers are devices that are designed to incapacitate a person by firing 50,000 volts through their body. Most Tasers use an average current of 2.1mA. 100mA is considered a lethal current.

Taser deaths are rare in England and Wales. Last year police Tasers were used over 10,000 times but were considered a contributory factor in only one death.

Tasers are not classed as being non-lethal, but are rather termed "less-lethal".

My question is: do the benefits of using Tasers outweigh the risk they pose, or are there better alternatives for the police to use?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I think it entirely depends on the situation. I don't think there is a safer ranged weapon the police can use and in situations where the suspect is carrying a knife or gun, it would be unreasonable to expect the police to close to baton distance to disarm them.

However, like firearms in the US, it is inevitable that they will end up being used in cases where it seems they are not necessarily required. Situations are often chaotic and complex and the view of an officer on the ground are hard replicate for distant commentators.

The most important thing is frequent training to help officers simulate these stressful situations and know when the right time to deploy a taser is.

If the arming of police in the UK with tasers means that we don't have to see normal beat police carrying firearms then this is certainly a good thing.

 

[Harbornite]

Police forces in the UK should not get rid of tasers just because of a handful of unfortunate incidents. They are a good alternative to guns in situations where people could be threatened. However, they should be used appropriately and the investigation into this incident will reveal if this was the case this morning.

 

[Hornet]

Many among you may be aware of the sad news that former footballer Dalian Atkinson has been killed by a police Taser. The killing of a Atkinson, a black man, by the police is unlikely to be recieved well by the controversial Black Lives Matter movement who have become active in the UK recently.

Tasers are devices that are designed to incapacitate a person by firing 50,000 volts through their body. Most Tasers use an average current of 2.1mA. 100mA is considered a lethal current.

Taser deaths are rare in England and Wales. Last year police Tasers were used over 10,000 times but were considered a contributory factor in only one death.

Tasers are not classed as being non-lethal, but are rather termed "less-lethal".

My question is: do the benefits of using Tasers outweigh the risk they pose, or are there better alternatives for the police to use?

Here is an issue that outweighs the risks imposed by Tasers.

http://www.thejournal.ie/manor-street-gardai-assault-2910906-Aug2016/

Note one particular part of this article:-

"Citing a number of incidents in the last week in Kildare (where some gardaí received death threats) and Kerry (where a Garda squad car was rammed during a robbery), the association says that such incidents highlight the difference between working as a Garda and other public sector positions.
“No other members of the public sector are required to wear stab vests to work or carry batons as a matter of course,” it said.
The association also called for the introduction of body-worn cameras for officers, and said that it’s now “vital that the use of tasers is seriously examined as a deterrent”."

I've no sympathy for people who are Tasered when they perpetrate violent attacks on Police Officers.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Last year police Tasers were used over 10,000 times but were considered a contributory factor in only one death.

That's a bit misleading

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...se-of-taser-statistics-england-and-wales-2014

Key facts

the police used Taser 10,062 times in 2014, representing a decrease of 3% (-318) compared with 2013; of these:
non-discharges accounted for 8,081 uses, representing a fall of 3% (-279) compared with 2013
drive stun and angle-drive stun accounted for 256 uses, representing a fall of 11% (-31) compared with 2013f
fired accounted for 1,724 uses, representing a fall of 1% (-9) compared with 2013
non-discharges accounted for 80% of Taser use in 2014, with this mainly comprising of either the use of red-dot (64%) or an officer drawing the Taser (27%)
drive stun and angle-drive stun accounted for 3% of Taser use in 2014
fired accounted for 17% of Taser use in 2014

 

[Gutfright]

That's a bit misleading

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...se-of-taser-statistics-england-and-wales-2014

You're 100% right. I hadn't realised that non-discharge (which I assume is every time a Taser is pointed at someone but not fired) is recorded as a Taser use.

I can only blame my own laziness for that oversight.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

You're 100% right. I hadn't realised that non-discharge (which I assume is every time a Taser is pointed at someone but not fired) is recorded as a Taser use.

I can only blame my own laziness for that oversight.

It actually makes it worse in a sense, because that 1 unfortunate person was one of a rather smaller number (1,980 in 2014) so it appears that tasers are even less 'safe'.

 

[Gutfright]

Here is an issue that outweighs the risks imposed by Tasers.

http://www.thejournal.ie/manor-street-gardai-assault-2910906-Aug2016/

Note one particular part of this article:-



I've no sympathy for people who are Tasered when they perpetrate violent attacks on Police Officers.

Most civilised people would say that the crime of being lairy to a law enforcement official should not carry the death penalty.

There is a question of what level of risk society is willing to tolerate. If Tasers killed one in every 10,000,000 people they were discharged on, I think most people would shrug their shoulders and say "sh*t happens" in the rare event of a Taser death. If Tasers killed one in every 100 people, I imagine it would be a very different story with many people calling for a ban on their use.

 

[ExRes]

Perhaps one thing that should be remembered at this point is that there is no evidence to prove that Atkinson was killed by the taser, he died of cardiac arrest, the reason for which will be found at an autopsy

The more worrying point at this time is the accusation that he was repeatedly kicked by one or more police officers after the taser had been discharged, proof of which will, once again, come out at the autopsy

 

[Gutfright]

Perhaps one thing that should be remembered at this point is that there is no evidence to prove that Atkinson was killed by the taser, he died of cardiac arrest, the reason for which will be found at an autopsy

Exactly right and the wording of my original post could be seen as a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy - Atkinson's death followed his Tasering, therefore his Tasering caused his death. Of course, that is not necessarily true.

The more worrying point at this time is the accusation that he was repeatedly kicked by one or more police officers after the taser had been discharged, proof of which will, once again, come out at the autopsy

I was not aware of that accusation. If true it would add another dimension to an already tragic event.

 

[Busaholic]

His nephew is quoted as saying he was on dialysis for kidney problems, so a cardiac arrest would, if true, be a not unexpected conclusion to him being shot by a taser.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My question is: do the benefits of using Tasers outweigh the risk they pose, or are there better alternatives for the police to use?

They are vastly better than every police officer carrying a lethal firearm.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Many among you may be aware of the sad news that former footballer Dalian Atkinson has been killed by a police Taser.
The killing of a Atkinson, a black man, by the police is unlikely to be recieved well by the controversial Black Lives Matter movement who have become active in the UK recently.

What was the reason given by the police for the use of a taser in this particular instance?

 

[AlterEgo]

What was the reason given by the police for the use of a taser in this particular instance?

The police haven't said. The IPCC are investigating (as they always do with any police related death).

 

[SteveP29]

I watched a programme a few weeks ago following the US police system, in the county sheriff department they were filming, they said that every officer that comes through them is, as part of their induction, shot with a taser to let them know the kind of power they hold in their hands.
Everyone of them said it was excruciating (2 of them were shown being tasered)
The prisoners they were holding in their jail (it was a police station jail, not a penetentiary) were all repeat offenders (small time drug use, robbery to feed drug habit etc).
The police made the point that most of those being held had experienced being tasered and it was proven that the officer(s) just had to draw the taser from its holster and the prisoner/ criminal immediately submitted. That is how effective they are as a control method.
In the case of Mr Atkinson, I can only assume that he wasn't aware of how painful the experience of being tasered is, only he and the attendant police know why the taser had to be used on him. If he'd known how painful it would have been, I'm sure there'd have been no need to use it on him.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What was the reason given by the police for the use of a taser in this particular instance?

The police haven't said, but Atkinson's father said he was "agitated" and Atkinson's brother has said he was in a "drink-fuelled rage" and threatening to kill his father. Both have alluded to mental health issues.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I made this post on DATM (The Huddersfield Town Fans Forum), and decided to copy it here with some edits:

This might be controversial to some, so bear in mind I'm just posing the question and not making any judgements one way or the other...

Quite a lot of former footballers have suffered from mental health issues after retirement. This is something the PFA ought to be concerned with, but I digress. For example Paul Gascoigne's difficulties have received a lot of press coverage, and he is a person with a history of violence and irrational behaviour such as approaching a stand-off involving armed police claiming to know the person involved in said stand-off- but if he, as a white man, had been in the situation that Atkinson found himself in, would be have been tasered? Would be have been tasered repeatedly, or kicked (as some unconfirmed accounts have it)? Or to put it another way, if Dalian Atkinson (who of course is not as recognisable as Gascoigne) had turned up at the Raoul Moat stand-off, how would the police have reacted?

I don't claim to know, but it is food for thought...

As an aside, I will add that I would certainly be treating the report of kicking with a healthy degree of scepticism - after all when the Munich shooting happened several witnesses claimed that the shooter had shouted "Allahu Akhbar" before launching the attack- but this was later disproved (by CCTV+lip readers I believe), so it certainly isn't unheard of for witnesses to embellish their accounts.

 

[Dave1987]

When taser was introduced, it was to give the Police a non lethal way to disarm a suspect with a dangerous weapon which is perfectly appropriate and proportionate. I think the issue is is that officers are starting to use it as a standard tool for all situations. There have been videos posted online of officers "red dotting" suspects that are not armed and deploying for circumstances it was not introduced for. I have no issues with 50,000 volts (or however much it is) being pumped into someone wielding a knife who isn't compliant.

 

[Phil.]

I made this post on DATM (The Huddersfield Town Fans Forum), and decided to copy it here with some edits:

This might be controversial to some, so bear in mind I'm just posing the question and not making any judgements one way or the other...

Quite a lot of former footballers have suffered from mental health issues after retirement. This is something the PFA ought to be concerned with, but I digress. For example Paul Gascoigne's difficulties have received a lot of press coverage, and he is a person with a history of violence and irrational behaviour such as approaching a stand-off involving armed police claiming to know the person involved in said stand-off- but if he, as a white man, had been in the situation that Atkinson found himself in, would be have been tasered? Would be have been tasered repeatedly, or kicked (as some unconfirmed accounts have it)? Or to put it another way, if Dalian Atkinson (who of course is not as recognisable as Gascoigne) had turned up at the Raoul Moat stand-off, how would the police have reacted?

I don't claim to know, but it is food for thought...

As an aside, I will add that I would certainly be treating the report of kicking with a healthy degree of scepticism - after all when the Munich shooting happened several witnesses claimed that the shooter had shouted "Allahu Akhbar" before launching the attack- but this was later disproved (by CCTV+lip readers I believe), so it certainly isn't unheard of for witnesses to embellish their accounts.

It sounds to me that you may be going down the racial route. Please don't. The police here will deal with someone the same whether black, brown, yellow or white as well as shades in-between. If they're wrong 'uns they're wrong 'uns.

This is the sort of stirring that the rent-a-mob just love to ferment.

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/43246/Dalian+Atkinson+dies+from+cops+taser

 

[fowler9]

Without wanting to go off subject I suspect a lot of sports men and women go through something similar to people who leave the armed forces. They leave a very tight knit community that has been their entire support network for most of their young lives (Lives that are still pretty young when they leave in many cases). Indeed many who encounter mental health issues when leaving the forces will never have been in the combat zone. Most people in the armed forces are not front line soldiers such as infantry.

Anyway, Tazers, I would rather the police had tazers than guns. As tragic as this footballers death was the outcome would probably have been no different if he was shot.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Perhaps one thing that should be remembered at this point is that there is no evidence to prove that Atkinson was killed by the taser, he died of cardiac arrest, the reason for which will be found at an autopsy

The more worrying point at this time is the accusation that he was repeatedly kicked by one or more police officers after the taser had been discharged, proof of which will, once again, come out at the autopsy

With a cardiac arrest that is very unlikely unless there is evidence of a heart condition.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It sounds to me that you may be going down the racial route. Please don't. The police here will deal with someone the same whether black, brown, yellow or white as well as shades in-between. If they're wrong 'uns they're wrong 'uns.

This is the sort of stirring that the rent-a-mob just love to ferment.

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/43246/Dalian+Atkinson+dies+from+cops+taser

Well said.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The police here will deal with someone the same whether black, brown, yellow or white as well as shades in-between. If they're wrong 'uns they're wrong 'uns.

I admire your optimism.

Home Office statistics show that 12% of Taser discharges are against black people, who only make up 4% of the population. A black person is three times more likely to be Tasered than a white person (18:10,000 to 6:10,000)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34511532

Quite a lot of former footballers have suffered from mental health issues after retirement. This is something the PFA ought to be concerned with, but I digress. For example Paul Gascoigne's difficulties have received a lot of press coverage, and he is a person with a history of violence and irrational behaviour such as approaching a stand-off involving armed police claiming to know the person involved in said stand-off- but if he, as a white man, had been in the situation that Atkinson found himself in, would be have been tasered?

It's certainly an interesting question. I think Gascoigne probably would get tasered, but I think people are more likely to perceive a black person as more aggressive than a white person doing the same thing. I don't think it is deliberate racism, but it is something that needs fixing. There isn't an easy solution, mostly because it isn't deliberate, but I think people who think the police treat everyone the same are optimistic, shall we say.

As for Gazza, what's happening with him shows the gutter press off at their worst. They leave booze on his doorstep knowing he will neck it and then do something stupid. Gazza woke up the next morning with absolutely no recollection of going to Rothbury, although the lovely taxi driver who drove him there despite being clearly off his face made pretty damn certain the papers knew where he'd gone.

 

[J-2739]

As a Black, I'm going to say a few points to justify Arctic Troll's post:

Blacks constitutes about 2% of the population, but make up about 15% of the prison population. Doesn't sound right, does it.

Blacks also commit 54% of street crimes, 59% for robbery and 67% of gun crimes, according to this source=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856787/Violent-inner-city-crime-the-figures-and-a-question-of-race.html

While it's obviously racist to say all blacks live the life of crime and drugs, you've all got to admit, there is something not right when it comes to Black people and crime. No wonder the Met Polices Operation Trident went through.

All so sad but true

 

[DarloRich]

As a Black, I'm going to say a few points to justify Arctic Troll's post:

Blacks constitutes about 2% of the population, but make up about 15% of the prison population. Doesn't sound right, does it.

Blacks also commit 54% of street crimes, 59% for robbery and 67% of gun crimes, according to this source=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7856787/Violent-inner-city-crime-the-figures-and-a-question-of-race.html

While it's obviously racist to say all blacks live the life of crime and drugs, you've all got to admit, there is something not right when it comes to Black people and crime. No wonder the Met Polices Operation Trident went through.

All so sad but true

but surely it isn't as simple as using colour of skin as the defining characteristic. There must be more to it than that

 

[Harbornite]

but surely it isn't as simple as using colour of skin as the defining characteristic. There must be more to it than that

The crime rates can be partly attributed to social problems that exist in inner city council estates, such as the lack of a father figure (not that all children with only one parent turn to crime) and deprivation. This isn't really due to their colour, it's just the way it is.

 

[Tetchytyke]

While it's obviously racist to say all blacks live the life of crime and drugs, you've all got to admit, there is something not right when it comes to Black people and crime.

There are a lot of things not right, some of it related to the communities they come from, and some of it related to how the criminal justice system treats them. White people arrested by the police are more likely to be given a caution, both for first and subsequent arrests, and white people who do make it to court are most likely to be given a community sentence. Black people are less likely to be given a caution and, if they get to court, are more likely to be given an immediate custodial sentence.

Black people are also more likely to be the victim of crime.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-to-be-jailed-for-similar-crimes-8959804.html

I think Mark Duggan was a poor choice of poster boy for Black Lives Matter, it has to be said.

I think there are too many factors to really get to the bottom of it on a forum about trains. People write PhD theses on it without getting an answer. But my point was fairly simple: that, for whatever reason, the police don't treat everyone the same.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Compensation has only recently been agreed to over an incident in 2013.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-37107805
Police have paid compensation to the parents of a man who was set alight after being struck by a Taser.

Andrew Pimlott, 32, had doused himself in fuel and was holding a lit match when the weapon was fired at him outside his parents' house in Plymouth.
He died a few days later in April 2013 from severe burns. An inquest found the Taser was the most likely cause of the fuel igniting.
Lawyers representing his parents said an undisclosed sum had been agreed.
Devon and Cornwall Police do not accept any liability for Mr Pimlott's death.
A police spokesman said: "Whilst the outcome of the inquest in 2015 did indicate that the Taser was the most likely cause of the ignition, no criticism was levied at the force or the officer, and confirmed the officer had used his Taser in accordance with national training."

The spokesman added: "The force have tried to avoid any further distress for Mr Pimlott's family which included making a decision to settle the civil claim in light of the fact they have already endured a series of legal and regulatory processes which examined their son's death."

Mr Pimlott, who was in the back garden of his parents' house, doused himself in petrol, the inquest heard
Mr and Mrs Pimlott, who have both been diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder, will receive ongoing counselling as part of the settlement.

Ali Cloak, of law firm Withy King, said: "While no amount of compensation will ever make up for the loss of their son, I hope the settlement will provide some sort of closure and allow them to rebuild their lives."
Mr Pimlott's father, Kelvin, said: "My boy was unarmed and posed no threat to anyone. He poured petrol over himself to get attention. He didn't want to die. If the police had used any other method then my son would still be alive today.

"Time and time again, Tasers are proving lethal and they clearly require much more stringent regulation and training to prevent further unnecessary deaths."

The jury at the 2015 inquest into Mr Pimlott's death found the Taser fired by a police officer was the most likely cause of a fire which killed him. However, they could not be sure whether Mr Pimlott started the fire by striking the match.

The jury said the officer had acted in line with his training before firing.

It's a bit worrying that it's considered fine for a taser to be fired at someone doused in petrol and carrying a lit match. The risk of the person inadvertently setting themselves alight or the taser causing a spark which then sets the person alight would seem to be pretty high.