I usually tip in restaurants and I'll round up in taxis. If I'm having a good evening in a pub I might buy the barman/maid a drink as a gesture. My postman is also a legend - he's the kind of bloke who memorises everyone's decent neighbours and delivers your packages to them if you're out which is no mean feat on a large round particularly in flats while always saying hi if you pass him in the street.
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Today's Pet hate - tipping & self service
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Bletchleyite
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I find it dishonest, as it misrepresents prices. If it's going on the bill and is not truly optional, it should be included in the price and waiting staff should be paid a proper living wage. Tipping should then be completely optional, and done for exceptional, not a normal base standard of, service, just like in every other industry where the practice occurs.
Essentially, if an item of food is listed on the menu, any effectively non-optional fee should be included in it. Just like the law has tended towards forcing on airlines and the likes - they can only charge extra for additional services without which it is still possible to consume the basic service, not for non-optional ones like paying for your flight or being served your food.
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DelayRepay
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Completely agree - I have no objection for paying for service, in the same way I don't object to paying for delivery if I order goods online. What I do object to is the lack of transparency. If the cost of a meal is £25 + 10% service charge then it should be advertised as £27.50. I do wonder if there is an element of avoiding VAT here though?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Good point, that might be the reason for it creeping up to 12.5% and more from the traditional 10%, too.
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If the service was *terrible* I would be looking for a discount off the bill anyway, so in that case it's fairly incidental as to how the bill is represented.
cjp
Member
But Why?
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
No, I think that's just greed. I'm not convinced this 12.5% ever actually reaches the staff, no matter what the likes of Pizza Express claim after last year's scandal, I think the owners just keep it for themselves.
It's just a hidden cost of the meal and it should actually be included in the actual cost.
As for tipping, I'll usually round up cab fares and the like, but don't tend to tip in restaurants (at least in the UK) unless the service has been good. It often isn't. I don't tend to ask for service charges to be removed, though, as it annoys the wife
I like to reward good service that is above and beyond what I would expect in a restaurant, however I will only pay a tip out of choice. I will not pay any "tip surcharges" that I have been given on restaurant bills, I will pay for my meal and any drinks, but that's it. If I want to give a tip (I will always give it to the person who has been serving me directly anyway), then it should be for me to decide the amount I want to give, not the restaurant. It's the same in taxis, I don't mind rounding the fare up to the next pound as a tip, but if I'm short changed in exchange for a tip (I always check before getting out) then I will tell the driver I want all of my change.
I will never have any issues paying for the service I've been given, but I strongly object to being expected to give a tip, especially if the service I have been given was average or below par.
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People who deal directly with the general public deserve extra money, including quite well paid self-employed people like London black taxi drivers, whereas cleaners in offices on minimum wage don't deserve any extra. I thought that was obvious.
Tim R-T-C
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Having been to the US, the British system really isn't too bad. It is endlessly complex and convoluted in the US, tipping all the time, even staff even at 'free' hotel buffets for example.
But then they don't advertise VAT in their prices so people are used to paying more for everything than is marked.
Interesting video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k
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On the cruise ship front, my brother is on a cruise at the moment, they have given them $1000 (or something like that) of on-ship money to spend as part of the package, but if you read the small print it takes $50 a DAY off their total for EACH adult, as tips. The only way to stop this is to visit the ship's office before midnight on the first day, otherwise it is compulsory.
But then they don't advertise VAT in their prices so people are used to paying more for everything than is marked.
Interesting video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vivC7c_1k
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On the cruise ship front, my brother is on a cruise at the moment, they have given them $1000 (or something like that) of on-ship money to spend as part of the package, but if you read the small print it takes $50 a DAY off their total for EACH adult, as tips. The only way to stop this is to visit the ship's office before midnight on the first day, otherwise it is compulsory.
Amtrak have "Red Cap" porters who will help you with your luggage to and from trains. Officially it is free, but in practice they get substantial tips, so in reality some people are paying up to $20. People use them partly to avoid the bizarre boarding method so there is even more in it for the Red Caps.
Ultimately ? Because it's my money. I get to choose where I spend it and how I spend it.
If I choose to use a restaurant that has a "Service Charge" then that is my choice. Most menu's are posted outside and most state there will be charge quite clearly. I choose to use that restaurant in the knowledge that he charge is required.
I have never had someone ask for a tip. You do get little smilies on a bill as a "friendly" reminder (and to make you feel guilty) but it is still my choice to tip.
Reasons for tipping can be quite complex for each of us.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Why tip?
I chose my job I do my job and beyond satisfaction, pay and the odd thanks that is all the reward I expect.
Why do taxi drivers who may well be owner drivers who have a fair (to me expensive) tariff expect more for just doing their job. (Chances are if you live in a big city like London you will never see them again anyway.)
If I go to a restaurant I expect to be able receive what I want well prepared and served to me and prices are designed to pay for this and the ambiance. Why should I have to put up with an automatic 12% gratuity being added? We are in the era of minimum wage and living wage so we know a person is not surviving on tips. Something over and above expectations should be rewarded but just doing the job you are paid for?:
I take my car to be service and I get it back clean and working well – in theory- why pay more than the bill.
I get someone to do work for me I pay them what we agreed unless they they have wildly exceeded expectations – when at my discretion I might pay them a bonus or, at a smaller level, give them a pot or jar of home-made marmalade.
What used to be a freely given reward is now an expectation and often not merited.
Why should I have to take positive action to remove something that is not merited and has just added an extras five or ten pound or so to my costs?
Cleaners are often not well paid so should we give the road sweeper a tip? Manners of course suggests a thank you from time to time would not go amiss. Think about it.
Those who cut hair often set their prices so why give them more?
And whilst I am at it – self service check outs or ticket machines for that matter. I am being asked to do what was a real persons job for which I receive nothing, no discount, no pay and if I get a faster service it is because the companies concerned have chosen, rather than to have extra staff, to put me to work for them. This as we know swells company's profits and leads to fewer being employed and less checkouts or ticket offices being in place. And as for those Judas goats (sometimes called queue busters) inviting you to leave the queue and tackle a machine I tell them quite clearly I am not doing someone else's job, that their company need more staff in place and ask why do they not get themselves doing something more useful.
Sorry people but I had to get it off my chest.
What a curmudgeonly old so and so!
I will assume that you have never been employed in one of these jobs thus meaning you have no understanding how helpful some of those tips can be to the people so employed. I agree that tipping is at your discretion but the rest of your rant just seems miserly & more than a little tight.
This. Entirely at my discretion of course.
The 'everyone is on minimum wage' brigade should trying living on minimum wage. Minimum wage isn't the living wage.
I was made redundant in July from a £9 an hour job, have 3 kids and just made ends meet on that salary. I have no debt repayments etc to budget for. Minimum wage of £7.20 would have been impossible without additional benefit.
Looking from another angle, In fact for some it may mess up or complicate tax credit and housing benefit payments having an unpredictable tip payment for someone in receipt of those supplementary benefits. This is most likely on any of those waiting staff on low wage with children.
What do we count as above and beyond to reward as a tip.
I was made redundant in July from a £9 an hour job, have 3 kids and just made ends meet on that salary. I have no debt repayments etc to budget for. Minimum wage of £7.20 would have been impossible without additional benefit.
Looking from another angle, In fact for some it may mess up or complicate tax credit and housing benefit payments having an unpredictable tip payment for someone in receipt of those supplementary benefits. This is most likely on any of those waiting staff on low wage with children.
What do we count as above and beyond to reward as a tip.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Indeed it isn't, which is why my view is that the prices should increase to allow service to be included.
Exceptional service - perhaps quality advice on the menu, or going out of your way to do something out of the ordinary - an example might be moving tables around to accommodate a large group on short notice, stuff like that.
With a taxi, it might typically be something like putting his foot down to get you somewhere you needed to go urgently.
One rule I do have is that asking for a tip guarantees that one will not be given. While it isn't usually quite enough to prevent one, I don't even really like the "smiley faces on the bill" thing. I did complain about a waitress circling the "service not included" line in the old Luton Airport restaurant - that's insulting to my intelligence, I am capable of reading, and no a tip was not forthcoming as as result. She didn't do it again (and did get tipped on future occasions having not done so).
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Do you not agree that the price should include the service, as in places like France? If not, why not?
And if you think people who are paid low wages should be tipped, are you saying people in all low paid jobs should be paid tips? If so, how is that practicable?
If I go to a restaurant and order a steak meal for £15, that £15 should already cover the food, the service, the operating costs.
I ate at lunch today in a restaurant, my bill came to £19.25. I left £20 so effectively 75p tip. My friend suggested this may be more negative than no tip, as it's less than guidelines of 10% for tipping, so can be seen as dissatisfaction leaving less than 10% but leaving a tip for the sake of it, whereas a zero tip just may show I don't tip and mean nothing. Any thoughts on my friends opinion?
I just so happened to have a £20 note.
I ate at lunch today in a restaurant, my bill came to £19.25. I left £20 so effectively 75p tip. My friend suggested this may be more negative than no tip, as it's less than guidelines of 10% for tipping, so can be seen as dissatisfaction leaving less than 10% but leaving a tip for the sake of it, whereas a zero tip just may show I don't tip and mean nothing. Any thoughts on my friends opinion?
I just so happened to have a £20 note.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'd say rounding up is fine and doesn't make any point really (as some people just don't tip, e.g. my parents). If you really want to make a point, leave a 1p coin.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
in theory yes but in practice no. To my mind a tip should be given for good service beyond that expected. I would not want to pay an automatic, say, 12% on top of my bill to be served by a surly disinterested person with thier fingers in my meal. I also wonder how much of that the "house" takes and how much reaches the person who you want/expect it to reach. I am suspicious of built in service charges as I feel, being the tight bloke I am, that I am simply paying a profit uplift!
A tip should be at my discretion for superior service and paid in cash so I know the person I want to get the tip actually gets it. I do not feel the compulsion to tip the OP seems to feel.
I think they should be paid enough not to need to fight for tips to make ends meet, especially in the service industry.
Would I tip the bin man or the mechanic? No, would i tip the waitress? Perhaps. I understand that is crazy.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Indeed it isn't, and in the case of younger people it is quite a long way below the living wage, and younger people don't get tax credits and the like to help them along.
But this is the problem with much of the service industry. It shouldn't be the case that waiting staff have to beg for tips in order to make a wage they can live on. Service should be included as standard in the menu price, and tips should be as a reward for going above and beyond the usual. The other issue with tips is that, quite often, it's just the front-of-house staff who receive them.
That's what I'd like to know too.
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Agreed!
I like that way of doing things, which is common in a number of European countries.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It makes things easier, because you just ask for the bill and leave a note on the table as appropriate. No need to wait around unless you need a receipt or something.
I completely agree, but may I ask how it will practically be implicated.
To pay serving staff a living wage and to pay staff at a level to which they are accustomed to when high tipping is the norm, prices will need to rise. This is unattractive to the customer, as it looks like their meal is more expensive, so the restaurant won't be happy because they may not make s much money (customers may be discouraged from ordering sides or a dessert with higher prices on the menu, for example). Of course, the additional cost is not likely to be existent - you're not going to pay 10% extra at the end, so 10% extra now is the same.
But are you not going to tip? We are generally in the mindset that tipping is standard with a reasonable level of service - few people would withhold a tip unless the service is poor. So people are still going to leave a tip. It would take a very brave/stupid restaurant to publicly discourage its patrons from leaving tips (the staff would not be pleased!), so I really don't think that our mindset will change. Furthermore, it would require a national approach, and restaurants are very autonomous businesses. If one restaurant decided to do it independently, it wouldn't work. Customers would still tip and staff would still expect tips. There is no framework to introduce this nationally at present, nor do I think there ever will be.
I sadly think we're stuck with the current arrangement, as I can't see an acceptable way out of the tipping dilemma. But I don't think that (in the UK) this is such a big issue that we need to go charging in with legislation - we have a decent minimum wage and tips will generally give the staff more security. On the other hand, the situation in America (low minimum wage for serving staff) is one that warrants looking in to.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The answer is the law. About 20 years ago France legislated banning "service non compris". We should do the same.
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But I honestly don't recall being in a situation in the UK where anyone told me that service was not included (large groups aside - a 12.5% service charge for groups over 6 is a common request). In general, tipping is essentially a custom.
I can't think of anywhere in the UK where I was presented with a bill which states "Service not included". Compare that to the US where that phrase is usually included, and it's not uncommon for the waiters to "kindly" work out your tip for you and write it on the receipt. Usually with a double underline/circle/liberal use of yellow highlighter just in case you missed it. Generally in the UK, there's no comment about service on the bill, yet most of us still leave a tip in the 10% region.
My point is - we're legislating against something that generally doesn't happen. Service is generally included, we just choose to pay extra out of custom. So banning "service not included" won't actually change anything for the majority of diners. As is our custom in the isles, we'll still tip for good service because old habits die hard.
The obvious exception is situations where the service charge (occasionally labelled optional) is added to your bill already. But this isn't commonplace outwith large groups - I'd be quite happy to legislate against that.
I can't think of anywhere in the UK where I was presented with a bill which states "Service not included". Compare that to the US where that phrase is usually included, and it's not uncommon for the waiters to "kindly" work out your tip for you and write it on the receipt. Usually with a double underline/circle/liberal use of yellow highlighter just in case you missed it. Generally in the UK, there's no comment about service on the bill, yet most of us still leave a tip in the 10% region.
My point is - we're legislating against something that generally doesn't happen. Service is generally included, we just choose to pay extra out of custom. So banning "service not included" won't actually change anything for the majority of diners. As is our custom in the isles, we'll still tip for good service because old habits die hard.
The obvious exception is situations where the service charge (occasionally labelled optional) is added to your bill already. But this isn't commonplace outwith large groups - I'd be quite happy to legislate against that.
Tim R-T-C
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I went to several restaurants where the "suggested" 22% tip was even calculated on the printed receipt. Makes it even more absurd.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Look for it next time you eat. It is very, very common.
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DarloRich
Veteran Member
The problem I have is that it is my suspicion that the included service charge payment simply goes to the owner as an extra profit charge and little, if any of it, reaches the person you expect it to.
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