Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[northwichcat]

It's not contrary to what he said.

Passengers don't back RMT and don't give a toss, in general, about DOO. I don't think he claimed passengers are pro-DOO. What they'd really like is for their trains to run on time, and not much else.

Passengers don't give much of a toss about ticket offices either. Look at the Tube. It still runs, and carries as many passengers as ever, even though a huge swathe of ticket offices got closed. Passengers half heartedly bleat about "oh well we don't want ticket offices to close", but when they do and they realise the sky hasn't fallen in, then what?

I think most passengers prefer to see a visible staff presence but that means they prefer someone permanently in the passenger area opposed to someone who is based in the rear cab.

On my local line some people complain about drivers being slow to release the doors despite it being the guard who releases them. You could implement DCO and a lot of passengers wouldn't even notice.

With the Tube a lot of people don't now need tickets - ever. A contactless bank card does the job instead.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm saying passengers don't care on the whole.

We know,that's blatantly obvious.

I think most passengers prefer to see a visible staff presence but that means they prefer someone permanently in the passenger area opposed to someone who is based in the rear cab.

On my local line some people complain about drivers being slow to release the doors despite it being the guard who releases them. You could implement DCO and a lot of passengers wouldn't even notice.

1, Our guards walk through/do tickets.
2. Does it really matter so long as the doors are released.Patience not a mass stampede is better.

3.I don't think DOO is a good idea (for various reasons) but people who actually do the job in the train driving role would know this and not too many others.

 

[Robertj21a]

Do you see just what you want to see? The utter chaos at LU ticket machines with vast queues of people waiting and one person to supervise the whole lot.

A couple of days ago one of my colleagues who works in a ticket office was telling me that they had a passenger who had used a TVM to get their ticket but ended up with a single instead of a return. They were extremely happy that the ticket office was open and they were able to be given the ticket they wanted. When the government gets their way and all the ticket offices are closed and Guards got rid of and there are few customer facing staff I'm sure passengers will see it as progress... Not!!!

There really isn't 'utter chaos' at LU ticket machines, with vast queues of people waiting'. There are certainly a few instances, often at major stations or tourist areas, where the LU staff need to be very vigilant with passengers who struggle with the machines but that will get resolved through better understanding as time goes on. It may be that the staffing needs to be adjusted in a few places or it may be that the peak periods need to be better managed, but it's all a learning process - for everybody. It's only a small percentage who don't use Oyster or contactless anyway.

Tourists abroad seem to cope with few ticket offices so I don't see what is special about London. In any event, this thread is about DOO.....

 

[AlterEgo]

3.I don't think DOO is a good idea (for various reasons) but people who actually do the job in the train driving role would know this and not too many others.

Perhaps we should leave it to the experts, like the RSSB?

 

[ComUtoR]

Perhaps we should leave it to the experts, like the RSSB?

The RSSB don't really drive trains. They are awesome ok at paperwork. The big problem with the rail industry is that no-one works together and nobody really understands each other's jobs. It's a horribly fragmented place.

 

[XDM]

Perhaps we should leave it to the experts, like the RSSB?

100% agree as would any sensible member of public. Re delay for door opening. You can see how upset it makes people,specially when they want to catch train due on adjacent platform. They look anxious,they even press the button repeatedly. Why make our passengers anxious when there is no need?. I am told cutting time for door to open on a Singapore metro line saved 2 units in the circuit,a capital cost of 15 million pounds that was then spent on minor infrastructure improvements that speeded trains & saved almost another unit,6 million pounds.
That is one of the many reasons why operators who want to do a good job,& wise DfT people, want DOO. Incidentally it is also why the train & track operator should not have been split asunder. And please do not bring out the absurd argument that RSSB is run by Charles Horton. They merely draw on his considerable wisdom & expertise.

 

[infobleep]

It's not contrary to what he said.

Passengers don't back RMT and don't give a toss, in general, about DOO. I don't think he claimed passengers are pro-DOO. What they'd really like is for their trains to run on time, and not much else.

Passengers don't give much of a toss about ticket offices either. Look at the Tube. It still runs, and carries as many passengers as ever, even though a huge swathe of ticket offices got closed. Passengers half heartedly bleat about "oh well we don't want ticket offices to close", but when they do and they realise the sky hasn't fallen in, then what?

Well perhaps passengers don't like it but are resigned to the fact no one is going to listen to them so they might as well give up trying. They can't change anything so what's the use in trying.

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Most people (especially in commuterville) go about their train journeys without thinking/worrying about the presence of a second person on the train. 99% of the journeys they take are incident free. When the debate in the media is boiled down to door opening/closing it really doesn't phase them one way or the other.

Where RMT have been rubbish with their PR is the failure to communicate effectively what happens on the 1% when something is amiss. The ill passenger, the frisky/rowdy drunk, the person stuck in the loo etc etc.

I've watched TV bulletins with Mick Cash talking about the "train platform interface" but apart from one select committee appearance haven't seen him or others use RAIB figures, hasn't held up an image of what in-cab CCTV looks like, hasn't fully explained the reality of one person in charge of a 12 coach train (fault delays, safety etc), hasn't pointed to Gatwick Express being de-staffed as an example of what inevitably will happen...and on and on.

In that vacuum the media fill it with "opening and closing train doors" as the narrative of the dispute.

Does anyone know why he's not done that? Has anyone here been able to suggest such a course of action or us everyone here to low down the RMT chain for anyone to listen to their views, except when a vote is required.

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100% agree as would any sensible member of public. Re delay for door opening. You can see how upset it makes people,specially when they want to catch train due on adjacent platform. They look anxious,they even press the button repeatedly. Why make our passengers anxious when there is no need?. I am told cutting time for door to open on a Singapore metro line saved 2 units in the circuit,a capital cost of 15 million pounds that was then spent on minor infrastructure improvements that speeded trains & saved almost another unit,6 million pounds.
That is one of the many reasons why operators who want to do a good job,& wise DfT people, want DOO. Incidentally it is also why the train & track operator should not have been split asunder. And please do not bring out the absurd argument that RSSB is run by Charles Horton. They merely draw on his considerable wisdom & expertise.

Does the RSSB include any rail union staff, such as drivers and guards? It would be good to their their wisdom of course.

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[ComUtoR]

100% agree as would any sensible member of public. Re delay for door opening.

Funny how we have a door release policy that specifically states that we need to allow x delay before releasing the doors. Remind me why we have this policy ?

You can see how upset it makes people,specially when they want to catch train due on adjacent platform. They look anxious,they even press the button repeatedly. Why make our passengers anxious when there is no need?.

Maybe ask the RSSB why we have to delay the door opening. Clearly they don't care if the passengers get upset or anxious.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Perhaps we should leave it to the experts, like the RSSB?

Like me they drive trains all day then?

Do they get up at 2am and varying shifts to work a DOO trains all day?

R.E. Door opening.Safety comes first.

 

[northwichcat]

1, Our guards walk through/do tickets.

If there's a lot of stations close together the guards aren't able to make much progress walking through/selling tickets if they keep having to stop to do the doors.

2. Does it really matter so long as the doors are released.Patience not a mass stampede is better.

Yes it does matter. Do the fines for late running or compensation for passengers who miss their connections get deducted from the crew's wages? Of course not. The TOC is perfectly entitled to look for a solution where delays are minimised whatever the unions say about greedy companies looking to increase their profits.

 

[Juniper Driver]

If there's a lot of stations close together the guards aren't able to make much progress walking through/selling tickets if they keep having to stop to do the doors.



Yes it does matter. Do the fines for late running or compensation for passengers who miss their connections get deducted from the crew's wages? Of course not. The TOC is perfectly entitled to look for a solution where delays are minimised whatever the unions say about greedy companies looking to increase their profits.

Why do train crews wages come into this for late running.I guess you want us fined for late running as well.It wouldn't make any difference it would either make many drivers and guards skint or a very umsafe railway or possibly even both.Punishing us won't make a difference.

Guards manage ok doing tickets with the increased key stations on trains and walk through on the 455's.

I'm going to duck out of this thread because I can see it's ridiculous and has lead to 348 pages of which these points have (probably) been raised and argued and can only be seen from the two sides of saving time and money.

 

[northwichcat]

Why do train crews wages come into this for late running.I guess you want us fined for late running as well.

If you'd been on many Northern services you'd know why - there are plenty of guards who try to keep selling tickets for as long as possible and then by the time they move off to do the doors the train has already been stopped for 10 seconds or more and they can't get easily get to the door controls because all the passengers are crowding around the doors ready to alight.

On one occasion a Northern guard working a 323 I was on didn't release the doors on arrival at Piccadilly at all due to being too focused on ticket sales and his commission. The unit only had a 5 minute turnaround time so the guard who was working the next service (who had been waiting on the platform) got on and released the doors. The departing service left 4 minutes late due to a greedy guard on the arriving service and some people on the arriving service had to run across the station to make their connecting services. If it hadn't been for the guard who was taking the next service showing some initiative the delay would have been even worse.

 

[Juniper Driver]

If you'd been on many Northern services you'd know why - there are plenty of guards who try to keep selling tickets for as long as possible and then by the time they move off to do the doors the train has already been stopped for 10 seconds or more and they can't get easily get to the door controls because all the passengers are crowding around the doors ready to alight.

On one occasion a Northern guard working a 323 I was on didn't release the doors on arrival at Piccadilly at all due to being too focused on ticket sales and his commission. The unit only had a 5 minute turnaround time so the guard who was working the next service (who had been waiting on the platform) got on and released the doors. The departing service left 4 minutes late due to a greedy guard on the arriving service and some people on the arriving service had to run across the station to make their connecting services. If it hadn't been for the guard who was taking the next service showing some initiative the delay would have been even worse.

This happens all the time does it? Or this happened because the guard was doing the other bit of his job? Happens here sometimes.A recent incident which happened to me is a passenger at a station told me I should release the doors.So I said to him I'll leave that for the guard to do (the guard was busy in the train for whatever reason/seen it all before).So passener looked a bit embarrassed.I'm under the impression he thought it was my job,plus the other thing was he didn't even want to get on my train.Generally though if the doors aren't released in a nano second then there is hell to pay.Or so it seems.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Funny how we have a door release policy that specifically states that we need to allow x delay before releasing the doors. Remind me why we have this policy ?

'cause you don't have what the Underground has had since the 60s - a system that checks the train is platformed correctly and only allows doors to be open if they're above a platform. No wrong-side releases or releases after a stop-short are possible.

You also don't have what the Victoria line does, where the train stops and then automatically opens every safe door, with no human input.

I feel like the TOCs should be culpable for every incident of doors being opened otherwise than over a platform, given that the technology to avoid this has been available for decades.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Just been chatting to an SWT guard who said thing s like who would restore the lighting or air-con in a coach if the fuse blew, would pax sit in darkness? He thinks OBS staff wouldn't be allowed/trained to deal with things like this.
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Just a couple of trivial but important duties that one hopes an OBS can do

 

[XDM]

Just been chatting to an SWT guard who said thing s like who would restore the lighting or air-con in a coach if the fuse blew, would pax sit in darkness?

She would say that wouldn't she. Do you see passengers in the 40 % DOO UK trains,incl London Underground trains sitting in darkness? No it's not a fuse it's usually a trip switch,like in a modern home box & the driver usually tries a reset.
No reason why an OBS under a driver's control couldn't do it. Southern have managed to recruit some very able people at the salary they have publicised.

 

[swt_passenger]

She would say that wouldn't she. Do you see passengers in the 40 % DOO UK trains,incl London Underground trains sitting in darkness? No it's not a fuse it's usually a trip switch,like in a modern home box & the driver usually tries a reset.
No reason why an OBS under a driver's control couldn't do it. Southern have managed to recruit some very able people at the salary they have publicised.

Must remember to call in a guard next time a trip switch goes in my consumer unit. Mountains out of molehills or what?

 

[northwichcat]

because the guard was doing the other bit of his job?

That's the problem - the guard can't effectively do revenue and doors on a lot of routes.

You keep on implying the only problem delays opening doors cause is it makes passengers impatient. Like I said already the TOC can be fined for late running (by Network Rail) and even small delays can caused missed connections or missed punctuality targets resulting in TOCs having to pay compensation to passengers. Of course the guard has everything to gain from small delays due to them getting commission on ticket sales. Fortunately, most guards aren't like that.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

On modern units are the breaker panels generally located in the cab?

 

[Domh245]

A lot of breakers for important equipment (radios, safety systems, etc) are in the cab, but plenty of the passenger environment ones are in car end cabinets IIRC

 

[Flamingo]

Just been chatting to an SWT guard who said thing s like who would restore the lighting or air-con in a coach if the fuse blew, would pax sit in darkness? He thinks OBS staff wouldn't be allowed/trained to deal with things like this.
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Just a couple of trivial but important duties that one hopes an OBS can do

Once it doesn't cause delay minutes, managers like XDM won't care. Passenger comfort and safety come a distant second with a lot of them, and they are the ones calling the shots.

 

[Dave1987]

'cause you don't have what the Underground has had since the 60s - a system that checks the train is platformed correctly and only allows doors to be open if they're above a platform. No wrong-side releases or releases after a stop-short are possible.

You also don't have what the Victoria line does, where the train stops and then automatically opens every safe door, with no human input.

I feel like the TOCs should be culpable for every incident of doors being opened otherwise than over a platform, given that the technology to avoid this has been available for decades.

Ow please please please don't start comparing the underground to the mainline.
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She would say that wouldn't she. Do you see passengers in the 40 % DOO UK trains,incl London Underground trains sitting in darkness? No it's not a fuse it's usually a trip switch,like in a modern home box & the driver usually tries a reset.
No reason why an OBS under a driver's control couldn't do it. Southern have managed to recruit some very able people at the salary they have publicised.

Well for a start as has been said over and over and OVER again they have clearly stated they want to run without an OBS! So discussing what an OBS can or cannot do is pointless as they aren't compulsory so a driver can't rely on them so might as well forget they are even on the train. And it's already been said that this OBS won't be traction trained no matter how "able" those that have applied are.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Must remember to call in a guard next time a trip switch goes in my consumer unit. Mountains out of molehills or what?

Desiro's are bloody weird sometimes...Lights not working intermittently in a saloon and nothing tripped.On other occasions TMS says an MCB is tripped but when I check it it's fine.Baffling.

 

[Carlisle]

Ow please please please don't start comparing the underground to the mainline.

It was said on this forum previously the class 395 are fitted with a system to prevent wrong side door release

 

[Juniper Driver]

It was said on this forum previously the class 395 are fitted with a system to prevent wrong side door release

I take it this is fitted on DOO trains like the Southern 455's?

 

[Dave1987]

It was said on this forum previously the class 395 are fitted with a system to prevent wrong side door release

The 379's were fitted with a system that would not release the doors unless the train believed it was in a platform but the system was so unreliable they disabled it. The most reliable system is good training for drivers.

 

[Juniper Driver]

The 379's were fitted with a system that would not release the doors unless the train believed it was in a platform but the system was so unreliable they disabled it. The most reliable system is good training for drivers.

How does good training for drivers stop wrong side door release?

Could be the best training in the world but that wont stop human error.

 

[Dave1987]

How does good training for drivers stop wrong side door release?

Could be the best training in the world but that wont stop human error.

There are plenty of techniques that new drivers are taught to stop wrong side door releases and I certainly haven't heard of a wrong side release happening in a long time around my patch.

The thing that happens more often is a stop short, doors released. And again there are new techniques coming in which have reduced this.

 

[Juniper Driver]

There are plenty of techniques that new drivers are taught to stop wrong side door releases and I certainly haven't heard of a wrong side release happening in a long time around my patch.

Well I don't know a lot about DOO(P) working on my patch so I can't quote you on how it works.

"Techniques" are not 100% fail safe.

 

[Dave1987]

Well I don't know a lot about DOO(P) working on my patch so I can't quote you on how it works.

I work both DOO and guard services. For me all this stuff about guards and the doors is diverting attention away from a full safety critical guards real value. There are techniques taught to new drivers to prevent wrong side door release and it is a very rare thing to happen now. I certainly haven't heard it happening in recent times.