Jeremy Corbyn & Tom Watson elected leader and deputy leader of the Labour Party

[ainsworth74]

Assuming he wins next month.

Surely it's a forgone conclusion?! No-one can seriously expect him to lose can they?

I rather feel that this whole leadership election is just giving more time for the Tories to govern without an effective opposition as Labour continue to spend it navel gazing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

We can all laugh at Jeremy Corbyn and the Momentum clowns....as long as he remains on the wrong side of the despatch box.

 

[PHILIPE]

Read in one paper today that Tom Watson has warned Jeremy Corbyn that his becoming leader and his view have attracted all the Trotskys to join and that he needs to sort them out if Labour are to become a credited party again.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Read in one paper today that Tom Watson has warned Jeremy Corbyn that his becoming leader and his view have attracted all the Trotskys to join and that he needs to sort them out if Labour are to become a credited party again.

All the 'Trotskys', or all the traditional labour supporters cast into the desert by 'new labour' (aka Tories in sheep's clothing) who have now become re-enfranchised, enthused, and forming the basis of a new mass movement political force?

 

[chris11256]

Being a mass movement is a lot different to being capable of winning elections! All he does is talk to existing hardcore supporters.

As a member of the conservative party, the longer Corbyn stays labour leader the better. Gives us a better chance in 2020.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Being a mass movement is a lot different to being capable of winning elections! All he does is talk to existing hardcore supporters.

As a member of the conservative party, the longer Corbyn stays labour leader the better. Gives us a better chance in 2020.

Why is winning the next election considered to be the over-riding priority?

Perhaps that is what is wrong with politics today? Behaviours and attitudes which puts off a large proportion of the population (of whatever flavour). All that willy waving at PM Questions for example, or the oh-so-clever spin which people easily see through, or the 'say whatever the electorate want to hear, regardless of what you actually intend to do once elected' approach to personal and professional integrity!

Sure it's undoubtedly nice to be in power rather than opposition. But perhaps the 'old Labour', which appears to have garnered widespread support from people who previously felt dis-enfranchised, needs time to re-build its core support. Putting it's message across through a generally hostile media will take time and perhaps needs a different approach - bypassing mainstream old media. So a longer term target of 2025 may be a better bet - so long as progress can be seen towards that target in 2020 - would 'losing' in 2020 be an unmitigated disaster?

Has the recent Conservative government actually helped run-of-the-mill party members. Lots of them are old and need public toilets - many now closed. They rely on evening / Sunday / rural bus services - disappearing rapidly. They get ill and need a health service - currently being destroyed. Sure, those at the top have benefited massively. But the average member of the public?

 

[Domh245]

Why is winning the next election considered to be the over-riding priority?

Because as a political party, the goal is to get into power. A protest party is there to be ideological, a serious party like Labour should be able to make compromises to get into power and enact their policies.

Perhaps that is what is wrong with politics today? Behaviours and attitudes which puts off a large proportion of the population (of whatever flavour). All that willy waving at PM Questions for example, or the oh-so-clever spin which people easily see through, or the 'say whatever the electorate want to hear, regardless of what you actually intend to do once elected' approach to personal and professional integrity!

Perhaps, but how are you going to change it. The whole point of PMQs is to generate sound bites for the media, standing up and reading letters from the public is what you might expect of a back bencher, the leader of the opposition needs to be sniping at the government and boosting their chances. All of the serious stuff that goes on (and takes up everything bar 2 hours on Wednesday lunch time) is very much different to PMQs - perhaps it is the public that needs educating!

Sure it's undoubtedly nice to be in power rather than opposition. But perhaps the 'old Labour', which appears to have garnered widespread support from people who previously felt dis-enfranchised, needs time to re-build its core support. Putting it's message across through a generally hostile media will take time and perhaps needs a different approach - bypassing mainstream old media. So a longer term target of 2025 may be a better bet - so long as progress can be seen towards that target in 2020 - would 'losing' in 2020 be an unmitigated disaster?

The impression that I get is that these disenfranchised old Labour voters mostly come from current labour strongholds anyway. I don't think that old Labour is going to appeal at all to the types of swing seats that you need to win to win the election. With JC at the helm, Labour will almost certainly loose seats. That then means that they have a larger mountain to climb in terms of getting back into power. Not getting into government in 2020 isn't the issue (although it then consigns everyone to another 5 years of Conservative rule), it's the loss of seats. I think a gain in seats, even if not becoming the outright largest part, could be deemed a win for Labour (at the moment).

Don't forget that working with the media helps though. There have been plenty of stories from within the Labour camp of JC and his team missing the deadlines for sending things off to the media, which really doesn't help.

Has the recent Conservative government actually helped run-of-the-mill party members. Lots of them are old and need public toilets - many now closed. They rely on evening / Sunday / rural bus services - disappearing rapidly. They get ill and need a health service - currently being destroyed. Sure, those at the top have benefited massively. But the average member of the public?

You only need to make them perceive that they've benefited from your parliament.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why is winning the next election considered to be the over-riding priority?

I can't believe this is a serious question.

They're a political party, and the official opposition!

 

[DarloRich]

All the 'Trotskys', or all the traditional labour supporters cast into the desert by 'new labour' (aka Tories in sheep's clothing) who have now become re-enfranchised, enthused, and forming the basis of a new mass movement political force?

Shall I list, again, the achievements of the last labour government? A lot of it looked like exactly the kind of thing a labour government should deliver. However, I guess accepting that means considering just how barmy Corbyinaism is! :roll:

Why is winning the next election considered to be the over-riding priority?

That is a joke right? You can not be serious.

Have a little think about how we change things from the vastly reduced number of seats Corbyn and his clown army are going to deliver. I simply cant respond further without getting a ban due to my rage.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Corbyn and his momentum chaps don't think winning is important so why would losing mean he has to resign?

To be fair, I've often heard this story from Corbyn's oppoents about Corbyn/momentum thinking that winning isn't important, but I've never seen anything said by Corbyn that backs that up.

My CLP is strongly Corbyn-supporting, so I've had lots of opportunities to talk to members who do support Corbyn. Almost universally, they do very much want to win. The issue is they have seen how under Corbyn Labour has swelled to over 500K members - bigger than any political party has been in the UK for many decades - with some of those being people who previously didn't vote because 'politicians were all the same' but who have been inspired by Corbyn's views on anti-austerity and peace and by his perceived sincerity. They have also seen Labour win a number of by-elections over the last year. As a result of this, they believe that Corbyn can win an election largely by inspiring people who didn't vote before.

Personally I think that's madness - if you want to win elections, you have to reach out to people who don't already agree with you. You cannot do it by only inspiring people who already agree with you. Corbyn has definitely inspired a large number of people who hold similar views to him and who have long been disillusioned with conventional politics, which is by itself great, but there simply aren't enough people with those views in the country to get anywhere near winning a general election. And I think having Jeremy as leader will therefore virtually guarantee a large Conservative majority as long as he remains so. But I don't think it's fair to make out that his supporters don't - by and large - want to win.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It did not take all that long for what was supposed to be a supposed major split in the Conservative Party after the result of the referendum that would enhance the Labour Party standing to be resolved by their own leadership election which brought Theresa May in the role of leader of that party which then gave people the opportunity to see who looked more like Prime Minister material between Jeremy Corbyn and her.

Before the usual cry surfaces that image isn't everything, you would be very surprised to see how many people do actually follow that perception.

 

[Blamethrower]

This country needs some socialism, Corbyn gives that, yet he needs to clean his party of pseudo-tories before he can start to achieve that.

England needs an opposition that represents a different way of thinking. The only way Labour have got into power in my lifetime is to become nu-labour and essential become tory lite (or at least give off that impression)

The working class spoke loud and clear for Brexit, Labour now needs to be their voice, not continue with this philosophy of copying the tories.

Pseudo-tories will continue the smear campaign through their media pals until Corbyn is moved on, this makes me support him even more.

Put it this way, in the last few elections, I have protest voted, I have not voted, all because there has never been anyone who represents me or my values. Corbyn is the first person who does and if he's still the leader, I will vote for him.

Considering voter turnout at the last election (40% ish) and the subsequent 80% ish turnout for Brexit, do you not think that there are lots of voters out there who potentially would vote for Corbyn as he represents a viable alternative?

EDIT: Dynamic Spirit, I am one of those voters, there are quite a lot of us believe it or not. The Corbyn "movement" represents quite a large amount of public opinion. Give them something worth voting for and they will vote, not just Tory A or Tory B

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My CLP is strongly Corbyn-supporting, so I've had lots of opportunities to talk to members who do support Corbyn. Almost universally, they do very much want to win. The issue is they have seen how under Corbyn Labour has swelled to over 500K members - bigger than any political party has been in the UK for many decades

Even allowing for those extra 500K members, if all of those actually voted at the last General Election, do you think that would have made a significant change to the result of the last General Election.

How many of the 500K members are based in Scotland and how is Jeremy Corbyn perceived in Scotland?
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This country needs some socialism

It most certainly does not...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Sure it's undoubtedly nice to be in power rather than opposition. But perhaps the 'old Labour', which appears to have garnered widespread support from people who previously felt dis-enfranchised, needs time to re-build its core support.

The core support of Old Labour didn't manage to win elections, and because of that the core heartlands of Old Labour were wiped out economically under 18 years of Conservative rule.

It's all well and good talking about a Socialist Utopia, and building a movement, but you don't get to protect the people you represent if you have 180 MPs and no chance of ever winning a division.

Blair had many flaws- although politically he was pretty much where I am on the spectrum- but because he got Labour into power and kept them there the poorest people were given protections that they now don't have. New Labour did many things I disagreed with, but they also created Sure Start and maternity grants for poorer people- something I benefitted from when I had my daughter- as well as tax credits (likewise), the National Minimum Wage and the Human Rights Act, not to mention peace in Northern Ireland.

There's no way the Conservatives would ever have achieved any of that. So even if Blair wasn't as old school as many Labour members wanted him to be, he got in and got the job done. That's the whole sodding point of being in politics.

If Momentum want a "social movement" rather than a viable political party that will win elections then that's fine. But let's not turn the only party capable of defeating the Tories into a Students' Union protest march.

 

[Butts]

How many of the 500K members are based in Scotland and how is Jeremy Corbyn perceived in Scotland?

I think like the Labour Party in Scotland he is largely an irrelevance. Watch out England Corbyn could reduce Labour to the same status down there. Wales is the only part of the UK that seems to be strong for you , and I believe they disown him.

 

[DarloRich]

This country needs some socialism, Corbyn gives that, yet he needs to clean his party of pseudo-tories before he can start to achieve that.

England needs an opposition that represents a different way of thinking. The only way Labour have got into power in my lifetime is to become nu-labour and essential become tory lite (or at least give off that impression)

The working class spoke loud and clear for Brexit, Labour now needs to be their voice, not continue with this philosophy of copying the tories.

Pseudo-tories will continue the smear campaign through their media pals until Corbyn is moved on, this makes me support him even more.

Put it this way, in the last few elections, I have protest voted, I have not voted, all because there has never been anyone who represents me or my values. Corbyn is the first person who does and if he's still the leader, I will vote for him.

Considering voter turnout at the last election (40% ish) and the subsequent 80% ish turnout for Brexit, do you not think that there are lots of voters out there who potentially would vote for Corbyn as he represents a viable alternative?

EDIT: Dynamic Spirit, I am one of those voters, there are quite a lot of us believe it or not. The Corbyn "movement" represents quite a large amount of public opinion. Give them something worth voting for and they will vote, not just Tory A or Tory B

I understand the polls are an awful Zionist/msm/blarite/something plot to destabilse the sainted Jeremy but he is MILES behind. He wont win. The simple fact is that to win power, & I KNOW this isn't important to you but is to the rest of us, we have to take seats of the Tories AND win lots of seats from the lib dems and SNP. How do you think old Jezza will do that? This website might help you grasp the concept that Corbyn isnt a viable alternative or future PM? : http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

It is hard to be the voice of the working man when your parliamentary presence becomes so small as to be insignificant. It is hard to make the changes we want to see in society and repeal the Tory laws that we all dislike from a tiny parliamentary presence. How bad a defeat, and the almost continual Tory rule that will bring, will it take before the Corbynians grasp this simple point? Or is it more important to say the right things, remain pure of thought and principle and never have to make the compromises in your position that seeking power brings. I think that for Corbynians talking the right talk is more important than actual doing anything to change things for the people suffering the most. The hypocrisy and delusions sicken me.
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The core support of Old Labour didn't manage to win elections, and because of that the core heartlands of Old Labour were wiped out economically under 18 years of Conservative rule.

It's all well and good talking about a Socialist Utopia, and building a movement, but you don't get to protect the people you represent if you have 180 MPs and no chance of ever winning a division.

Blair had many flaws- although politically he was pretty much where I am on the spectrum- but because he got Labour into power and kept them there the poorest people were given protections that they now don't have. New Labour did many things I disagreed with, but they also created Sure Start and maternity grants for poorer people- something I benefitted from when I had my daughter- as well as tax credits (likewise), the National Minimum Wage and the Human Rights Act, not to mention peace in Northern Ireland.

There's no way the Conservatives would ever have achieved any of that. So even if Blair wasn't as old school as many Labour members wanted him to be, he got in and got the job done. That's the whole sodding point of being in politics.

If Momentum want a "social movement" rather than a viable political party that will win elections then that's fine. But let's not turn the only party capable of defeating the Tories into a Students' Union protest march.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This. The final line is where we are heading under Corbyn. Protest marches and nice slogans with no chance of ever taking power and having the ability to implement them. That approach means you can be ideologically pure and never have compromise to do deals that help the majority.

 

[asylumxl]

This topic is what is known in the internet as a circle jerk. Like-minded people agreeing with each other, stroking each other's egos. Oh the irony..

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me how Labour this, Corbyn that and something about the General Election. How about actually engaging in proper discussion using facts and statistics, rather than just trying to shout down anyone who disagrees with your opinion?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

This topic is what is known in the internet as a circle jerk. Like-minded people agreeing with each other, stroking each other's egos. Oh the irony..

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me how Labour this, Corbyn that and something about the General Election. How about actually engaging in proper discussion using facts and statistics, rather than just trying to shout down anyone who disagrees with your opinion?

Thank you for your valuable contribution.

 

[DarloRich]

This topic is what is known in the internet as a circle jerk. Like-minded people agreeing with each other, stroking each other's egos. Oh the irony..

I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me how Labour this, Corbyn that and something about the General Election. How about actually engaging in proper discussion using facts and statistics, rather than just trying to shout down anyone who disagrees with your opinion?

All right then. Facts it is:

CON 42%(+2), LAB 28%(nc), LDEM 8%(nc), UKIP 12%(-1), GRN 3%(-1)

Seats: 330 (con) 232 (lab) 56 (snp) 8 (Lib dem)

Considering the first set of figures how do you think we can improve the second and win the required number of seats to obtain a majority of 326?

That is before we consider Corbyns approval rating: 65% doing badly v 24% thinking he is doing a good job.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

You only need to make them perceive that they've benefited from your parliament.

Indeed, and the opposition should be pointing out just how all those Conservative / Coalition voters have been stuffed by the parties they supported.

Labour, if it has a message (other than we are like the Tories but not quite as nasty), fails to get it across. It fails to convince people, who really would be better off voting Labour, to do so. Lots of people now think they are the wealthy / high income / middle class groups. A tax scare story of 'Labour to tax the wealthy' needs a response of where exactly this line of wealth falls. Is it an income of £25K, £75K or £125K. People in Stoke, on £25k, really do believe they are in the wealthy elite and will be hit hard by a Labour government 'taxing the rich'!

 

[Domh245]

Indeed, and the opposition should be pointing out just how all those Conservative / Coalition voters have been stuffed by the parties they supported.

And yet all you get is "Lisa from Chessington wants to know if the Prime Minister is looking at the developing crisis is Nowhere-stan and what she will do about it"

 

[Tetchytyke]

People in Stoke, on £25k, really do believe they are in the wealthy elite and will be hit hard by a Labour government 'taxing the rich'!

It's more nuanced than that. The "tax cuts" from the Tories are real- you can see the £12 a month in your pay packet. The Tories are clever enough to cut income tax and cut NI, because you notice them in your wage slip.

Of course the tax cuts don't exist- the increases to things like insurance premium tax, for instance, more than offset the "cuts"- but people don't notice those changes or, if they do, simply assume it is the insurers being greedy bankers.

The only people who notice their cut in income are those on benefits, including tax credits, but they're shirkers not workers anyway, so they don't count do they? :roll:

The problem is that to win a general election in this country you need to appeal to a narrow band of swing voters, like the people of Shipley in Yorkshire, and persuade them that you're in it for them. With the best will in the world, someone like Corbyn ain't gonna do that (he doesn't even persuade me to vote for him- although I've never voted Labour in my life I am left-centre!).

As Jesse Jackson said, the name of the game is power and if you ain't playing power you're in the wrong place.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

And yet all you get is "Lisa from Chessington wants to know if the Prime Minister is looking at the developing crisis is Nowhere-stan and what she will do about it"

I did say up thread that I don't think much of Corbyn as a leader. But I do want a left leaning government - far left of recent Labour policies but not 'far-left' in the Militant Tendency sense.

 

[asylumxl]

All right then. Facts it is:

CON 42%(+2), LAB 28%(nc), LDEM 8%(nc), UKIP 12%(-1), GRN 3%(-1)

Seats: 330 (con) 232 (lab) 56 (snp) 8 (Lib dem)

Considering the first set of figures how do you think we can improve the second and win the required number of seats to obtain a majority of 326?

That is before we consider Corbyns approval rating: 65% doing badly v 24% thinking he is doing a good job.

The first question is hard to answer as there isn't really one answer, there's no magic bullet. A change of leader will not fix a multitude of bad decisions made by the party (before Corbyn was leader I might add).

Scotland is a perfect example of where this rings true. During the Scottish Independence referendum, the Labour party chose to back the Better Together campaign along with the other main parties.

Promises were made regarding a prompt further devolution of powers if a remain vote was returned, which as we know, it was. Let's just say after the referendum things went rather quiet. Many Scottish Labour voters felt rather dissapointed and betrayed, particularly by Mr Gordon Brown and hence they chose to vote SNP in the next election.

While the Scotland Act of 2016 was passed this year, many feel it falls well short of the powers that were promised. Unless the Labour party redeem themselves in Scotland, I see little chance of them regaining any seats from the SNP. A new leader will not suddenly redeem them.

As for the approval ratings, may I ask how many people were asked and whom these people were? While they may be accurate, it's hardly impossible to choose your sample to construe the results.

 

[Tetchytyke]

As for the approval ratings, may I ask how many people were asked and whom these people were? While they may be accurate, it's hardly impossible to choose your sample to construe the results.

Most surveys are showing similar results. And yes, it would be possible to manufacture it so that Corbyn looks worse than he is, but I don't see why anyone would. Let's face it, Corbyn in control of Labour is great for the Conservatives.

The problem is that Corbyn polarises: Momentum think he's ace, everyone else thinks he's an ass. The truth is somewhere between the two. I agree with much of what he says, I just don't think he's competent or capable enough to get in a position to deliver on his rhetoric.

But pinning your hopes on Owen Smith seems...optimistic...too

 

[AlterEgo]

Most surveys are showing similar results. And yes, it would be possible to manufacture it so that Corbyn looks worse than he is, but I don't see why anyone would. Let's face it, Corbyn in control of Labour is great for the Conservatives.

The problem is that Corbyn polarises: Momentum think he's ace, everyone else thinks he's an ass. The truth is somewhere between the two. I agree with much of what he says, I just don't think he's competent or capable enough to get in a position to deliver on his rhetoric.

But pinning your hopes on Owen Smith seems...optimistic...too

100% agree.

Owen Smith won't won an election either. I've said it before - Labour are dead. Get out now. The old order of left and right politics passed away with Blair. The playing field is different now, even though the issues might look the same.

 

[asylumxl]

Most surveys are showing similar results. And yes, it would be possible to manufacture it so that Corbyn looks worse than he is, but I don't see why anyone would. Let's face it, Corbyn in control of Labour is great for the Conservatives.

The problem is that Corbyn polarises: Momentum think he's ace, everyone else thinks he's an ass. The truth is somewhere between the two. I agree with much of what he says, I just don't think he's competent or capable enough to get in a position to deliver on his rhetoric.

But pinning your hopes on Owen Smith seems...optimistic...too

Doesn't necessarily need to be Tories...

As for the second part, I agree totally and in fact said pretty much the same thing earlier in this thread. It mostly falls on deaf ears though.

 

[Blamethrower]

100% agree.

Owen Smith won't won an election either. I've said it before - Labour are dead. Get out now. The old order of left and right politics passed away with Blair. The playing field is different now, even though the issues might look the same.

Labour are not dead, they are just in transition, due to their party being full of pseudo-tories, of which Owen Smith is one.

Labour haveto provide an alternative and that alternative is Jeremy Corbyn - Socialist/Republican.

Watching Labour try and copy the tories is like watching all the failed attempts by English football teams at copying Barcelona, excruciatingly embarassing.

I really don't know why people keep banging on about polls though, they didn't predict brexit or a coalition government or a tory majority.

They are complete b()ll$h1t, manipulated to provide the result the publisher requires. Considering that there is only 1 newspaper that openly supports labour, I think it's fair to say that any polls are going to be unfairly skewed in the tory favour.

 

[chris11256]

Labour are not dead, they are just in transition, due to their party being full of pseudo-tories, of which Owen Smith is one.

Labour haveto provide an alternative and that alternative is Jeremy Corbyn - Socialist/Republican.

Watching Labour try and copy the tories is like watching all the failed attempts by English football teams at copying Barcelona, excruciatingly embarassing.

I really don't know why people keep banging on about polls though, they didn't predict brexit or a coalition government or a tory majority.

They are complete b()ll$h1t, manipulated to provide the result the publisher requires. Considering that there is only 1 newspaper that openly supports labour, I think it's fair to say that any polls are going to be unfairly skewed in the tory favour.

Republicans are in a small minority thankfully.

I seem to remember a hung parliament predicated at the 2010 election?

 

[DarloRich]

Labour are not dead, they are just in transition, due to their party being full of pseudo-tories, of which Owen Smith is one.

Labour haveto provide an alternative and that alternative is Jeremy Corbyn - Socialist/Republican.

Watching Labour try and copy the tories is like watching all the failed attempts by English football teams at copying Barcelona, excruciatingly embarassing.

I really don't know why people keep banging on about polls though, they didn't predict brexit or a coalition government or a tory majority.

They are complete b()ll$h1t, manipulated to provide the result the publisher requires. Considering that there is only 1 newspaper that openly supports labour, I think it's fair to say that any polls are going to be unfairly skewed in the tory favour.

So because I think Corbyn is a drongo I am a pseudo-tory then? 20+ years membership counts for nothing? Funny how all the £3 army types think they are better placed to comment and decide on our future.
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But pinning your hopes on Owen Smith seems...optimistic...too

The only hope I pin on Smith is that he isn't Corncob, might be a tad more palatable to the electorate and perhaps improve our number of seats. Corbyn will lead us to disaster.
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I really don't know why people keep banging on about polls though, they didn't predict brexit or a coalition government or a tory majority.

They are complete b()ll$h1t, manipulated to provide the result the publisher requires. Considering that there is only 1 newspaper that openly supports labour, I think it's fair to say that any polls are going to be unfairly skewed in the tory favour.

have you never noticed that polls, when wrong, tend be wrong in favour of Labour? That means old Corby is doing even worse than the picture suggested! Look at http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/ and study the trends.

please explain to me how we can enact all of the lovely warming right on ideas of Momentum and jezza from a position of 30 or 40 or 100 seats in Parliament. If winning is as unimportant as you seem to think how do you propose to chnage anything?
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The first question is hard to answer as there isn't really one answer, there's no magic bullet. A change of leader will not fix a multitude of bad decisions made by the party (before Corbyn was leader I might add).

I agree - however a competent leader would be at least trying to overturn the deficit and show some fight. Corby thinks that by talking to groups of his acolytes and basking in thier glow he is winning and converting people to his cause. He clearly isn't.