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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

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Bromley boy

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For a Conductor to be dismissed under poor performance there would have to be considerable meetings, coaching plans and other documented action before the trigger is pulled on them and if they had ignored all warnings and had no excuse as to why there was no improvement then the union if indeed they were a member would not support any industrial action and I doubt they would even support a tribunal if the process of dismissal was carried out correctly.

When I was staff rep a few years ago there wasn't one manager on the Conductors side who understood train crew rosters or the principles of diagramming hence every roster change they would simply dump the work on us and tell us to get on with it. I doubt many managers especially those from outside the railway would have much understanding either, even when I would be asked to teach a manager or a new staff rep the principles very few would be able to take it on board what was required to complete a roster that complied with all agreements and was able to cover all trains etc.

Yes this is my experience of union involvement in such matters. For example, one recent disciplinary case discussed at a union meeting I attended was a clear cut case of gross misconduct. This was given very short shrift indeed by the union and the employee in question was summarily dismissed from his post.

If a member of staff commits gross misconduct, or has demonstrated that they are unfit for a role through a catalogue of smaller errors over a long period, the union will not have any involvement other than ensuring the disciplinary process leading up to a dismissal is undertaken fairly and in accordance with applicable employment law and contractual provisions.

This is something that is widely misunderstood. For example I can remember the widely reported case of a tube driver who was dismissed for failing a D&A test, but reinstated when it was found that the test was not undertaken correctly. The press headlines gave the impression that the union had simply used its muscle to get a drunken employee reinstated. Absolute nonsense, but since when did the facts get in the way of a good story?
 
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Sprinter153

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From the Telegraph, here's something of a bizarre, spiteful little write-up for a Labour Party advisor... looking into his past, a thoroughly nasty individual.

Daily Telegraph said:
The Tories should crush the rail unions once and for all – voters would thank them for it. By JOHN MCTERNAN
We are in the middle of a five-day rail strike on Southern Rail. Commuters are being massively disrupted. And this is just the latest stage in a dispute in which the Luddite RMT union has made it clear that it is fully committed to fighting against the future.

What about the Government? Where are they in this dispute. It is a crystallisation of all their key themes: investment, modernisation, innovation and productivity. But they are silent.

Well not quite. What we have actually seen is the resignation of the then rail minister Claire Perry, who said: "I am often ashamed to be the Rail Minister." And so she should have been - just for her pathetic capitulation to the RMT. This, of course, is just what you would have expected from a Miliband government; but this is a Tory government, with a majority.

Commuters in the Home Counties could be forgiven for thinking: "I waited 23 years for a majority Tory government. Instead I got you." Where are the core Tory values? Where is the support for management's right to manage?

This is not even a complicated dispute. It is a simple case of right and wrong. The rail company are right and the union is wrong. At the heart of this is Southern's desire to improve services for passengers. New rolling stock can - and should - be be operated with drivers responsible for opening and closing doors. This frees up staff time. And saves on running costs as Southern rolling stock would be interchangeable with Thameslink trains - a franchise that the Train Operating Company Govia Thameslink Railway also operate.

The fact that this is merely a harmonisation of working conditions with those already existing on Thameslink highlights its absurdity. For nearly thirty years Thameslink - a service established by the old nationalised BR - has had drivers operating train doors. It is not a new technology - it is a tried and tested one. So established that four out of ten trains in Britain already operate this way.
This is a blatant attempt by the RMT to veto progress, to frustrate and prevent change. That can be seen in its tactics.
Its first line of attack was to try to disrupt crew rosters by getting staff to go off sick. That way they could force train cancellations.
It is a tried and tested technique. When I was a Southwark Councillor there were workers who clearly took sickies in an organised pattern. Why? It created a need for staff to cover. Bingo! Overtime for all. How did we deal with it? Firm management. When the unions are having a laugh you have to beat them - and, if necessary, break their stranglehold. It's not pleasant - confrontation never is. But it is necessary.
To be fair to them, the Southern Rail management are taking the fight to the unions. Govia Thameslink have no intention of backing off. Why should they? They are in the right. But they are being betrayed by this pathetic Tory government. This should be a no-brainer for ministers. Who do they support in a struggle between the mindless militants of the RMT and the voters of commuter land? Hmm, let me think for a minute...
It's not as if the pathetic inaction of the Government has no cost. Rail strikes are the new black. A week of action is threatened on Eurostar. And there may be action on Virgin Trains on the East Coast Main Line.
The Government cannot be neutral in this struggle. They urgently need to back the rail companies in any ways that they can. Having a Labour Leader whose politics are throwback to the seventies is bad enough, having trade union battles that are an homage to the era of the Heath Government is taking it too far.
 
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Muttley

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The problem for management is the cost of stopping them getting away with it can be very high. For instance, suppose there is a particularly lazy member of staff who the company would be best rid of because they don't collect revenue and by not doing so lower staff morale. The management spend a lot of hours accumulating evidence of under-performance, an official warning is given which takes meetings with management and union reps etc. Cost this up at £100 per hour for management time (this is pay, benefits and opportunity cost), plus consultation costs with lawyers.

Then more management time for the assessing of the agreed performance improvements, then the member of staff is dismissed. They challenge at an employment tribunal. Costs are now 6 figures. At this point I'll relate a story I heard about the NHS where most of the above had happened. The employee had a drink problem, because the NHS trust had never offered to help with this the unfair dismissal case was lost and the employee re-instated. So for a 6 figure sum nothing changed.

So management have priced themselves out of the market, if it costs that much to do their job ???

I think you might be onto something here, keep the conductors and sack the management.
 

Tetchytyke

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From the Telegraph, here's something of a bizarre, spiteful little write-up for a Labour Party advisor... looking into his past, a thoroughly nasty individual.

Nasty and incompetent, judging by the fact he was senior political adviser to Labour in 2007 (and didn't that go well) and Australian Labor under Gillard (and didn't that go well).

Thumbs up to him for using a tweet from someone who lives in Hong Kong to support his argument though :wub:

Like Glenda Jackson's braindead son, he's just another gob****e who'll say anything in the Torygraph and Daily Fail for cash.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes this is my experience of union involvement in such matters. For example, one recent disciplinary case discussed at a union meeting I attended was a clear cut case of gross misconduct. This was given very short shrift indeed by the union and the employee in question was summarily dismissed from his post.

Precisely. The union's involvement is making sure that the process is conducted fairly and reasonably, including making sure that the punishment is appropriate to the misconduct. The union aren't going to call the boys (and girls) out, and the boys (and girls) aren't going to give up pay, for someone whose conduct is a clear case of gross misconduct.

Where management are trying to bully someone out of their role on trumped up charges they will fight. But in most cases they're not, so they don't, other than making sure that the employee is still treated fairly and professionally.
 
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tony6499

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John McTernan = Former adviser to Blair & Brown , a total waste of time yet still pops up all the time attacking anything to do with Labour and the unions.

Leo McKinistry's article in the Mail this week was just as bad and bordering on the hysterical.
 

northwichcat

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I got a free copy of The Times today (by buying alcohol in Waitrose ;)) and on page 12 there's an article where the RSSB say not only is there no evidence that DOO is unsafe but DOO is actually safer as the driver is in full control with no risk of miscommunication. The RMT's quoted response is the RSSB are not independent and have ignored the 'blindingly obvious' points they've made with regards to DOO.
 

Domh245

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I got a free copy of The Times today (by buying alcohol in Waitrose ;)) and on page 12 there's an article where the RSSB say not only is there no evidence that DOO is unsafe but DOO is actually safer as the driver is in full control with no risk of miscommunication. The RMT's quoted response is the RSSB are not independent and have ignored the 'blindingly obvious' points they've made with regards to DOO.

That should be an easy goal for the RMT where they can spell out "one person in control, one less person to spot something" etc, but they go and do that! Bloody hell.
 

Mutant Lemming

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Indeed, it's been similar at our place. Plenty of people get sacked across all grades without a murmur from the relevant union (including at least 1 guard for not doing all of their duties) but the only time there's been industrial action has been when management hasn't followed the correct procedures or been entirely fair....and even then it's been localised rather than TOC-wide.

You get the feeling at certain places that the 'mafias' hold more sway over what happens in such cases than management or unions.
 

craigybagel

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You get the feeling at certain places that the 'mafias' hold more sway over what happens in such cases than management or unions.

I'm not sure how you get that from what I said. My point was that the union won't support people who deserve to get sacked......
 

cjmillsnun

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I got a free copy of The Times today (by buying alcohol in Waitrose ;)) and on page 12 there's an article where the RSSB say not only is there no evidence that DOO is unsafe but DOO is actually safer as the driver is in full control with no risk of miscommunication. The RMT's quoted response is the RSSB are not independent and have ignored the 'blindingly obvious' points they've made with regards to DOO.

RSSB isn't independent though. Horton is a non executive director...
 

Harbornite

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Maybe the RMT have been infiltrated by the DFT and the crappy press releases are attempts to weaken the arguments against DOO?

I'll take off my tin hat...
 

ModernRailways

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Something I find truly interesting is that there is a passenger group for my local Metro (Tyne and Wear Metro), and an admin has asked what they would most like to see and one of the common things mentioned is staff on all trains (a la conductor) or all stations staffed.

The common theme is safety and people don't feel safe with just the driver who would take a while to get to the rear of the train if there was an incident. The trains are only two cars (More like 4 in comparison to Southern) so imagine if that was 12 cars. Not only do they have to go and check but they then have to go back to the cab. All in that is likely a 5 minute delay at least, and that's if everything is fine.

I really feel as though the RMT aren't pushing the right things in the press and Southern are just having free reign to walk over them. Southern mention it's just pushing some buttons, RMT comes back with something silly that doesn't really bring Southern into disrepute.
 

Carlisle

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Something I find truly interesting is that there is a passenger group for my local Metro (Tyne and Wear Metro), and an admin has asked what they would most like to see and one of the common things mentioned is staff on all trains (a la conductor) or all stations staffed.

The common theme is safety and people don't feel safe with just the driver who would take a while to get to the rear of the train if there was an incident. The trains are only two cars (More like 4 in comparison to Southern) so imagine if that was 12 cars. Not only do they have to go and check but they then have to go back to the cab. All in that is likely a 5 minute delay at least, and that's if everything is fine.

I really feel as though the RMT aren't pushing the right things in the press and Southern are just having free reign to walk over them. Southern mention it's just pushing some buttons, RMT comes back with something silly that doesn't really bring Southern into disrepute.
I highly suspect a major part of the reason the Tyne & Wear metro actually got built in the first place was its much lower operating costs compared to heavy rail at that time (the late 1970s) if we'd insisted on full staffing at every station and a guard on every train, then we would probably have ended up with a much reduced local heavy rail system, a tram or guided busway at best
 
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JamesTT

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Earlier on in this thread I mentioned about the cost per passenger journey for a guard being quite low. Have the RMT used such figures?
 

ModernRailways

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I highly suspect a major part of the reason the Tyne & Wear metro actually got built in the first place was its much lower operating costs compared to heavy rail at that time (the late 1970s) if we'd insisted on full staffing at every station and a guard on every train, then we would probably have ended up with a much reduced local heavy rail system, a tram or guided busway at best

I'm not saying otherwise. My point being that the people/passengers who use the system day in, day out are the ones wanting it.
 

northwichcat

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Earlier on in this thread I mentioned about the cost per passenger journey for a guard being quite low. Have the RMT used such figures?

As a lot of services have one guard whether they have 15 passengers or 300 passengers and whatever the type of traction is (some trains being a lot more expensive to operate than others), I would have thought the cost per passenger journey can vary substantially.
 

LLivery

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Something I find truly interesting is that there is a passenger group for my local Metro (Tyne and Wear Metro), and an admin has asked what they would most like to see and one of the common things mentioned is staff on all trains (a la conductor) or all stations staffed.

The common theme is safety and people don't feel safe with just the driver who would take a while to get to the rear of the train if there was an incident. The trains are only two cars (More like 4 in comparison to Southern) so imagine if that was 12 cars. Not only do they have to go and check but they then have to go back to the cab. All in that is likely a 5 minute delay at least, and that's if everything is fine.

I really feel as though the RMT aren't pushing the right things in the press and Southern are just having free reign to walk over them. Southern mention it's just pushing some buttons, RMT comes back with something silly that doesn't really bring Southern into disrepute.

Indeed there have been repeated calls for more staffing/policing on the railways in London. Even talk of women only carriages. Visible staff is always something that comes up, yet the DfT, TfL and operators apart from SWT seem to believe that only station staff is important. Its baffling really. It will be very interesting to see the outcome to the SW franchise. I have no doubt that if SWT guards become under threat next year passengers will back guards/the union 100%.
 

Robertj21a

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Indeed there have been repeated calls for more staffing/policing on the railways in London. Even talk of women only carriages. Visible staff is always something that comes up, yet the DfT, TfL and operators apart from SWT seem to believe that only station staff is important. Its baffling really. It will be very interesting to see the outcome to the SW franchise. I have no doubt that if SWT guards become under threat next year passengers will back guards/the union 100%.

I think you are being wildly optimistic if you think that commuters from leafy Surrey, Hampshire etc will back any Trade Union - and certainly not 100%........
 

XDM

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It will be very interesting to see the outcome to the SW franchise. I have no doubt that if SWT guards become under threat next year passengers will back guards/the union 100%.

Yes,like Southern passengers have been backing RMT 100%.
But some good news for Southern Guards & bad news for the public who want DOO & its benefits. Southern have had to defer some driver door closing until December.
 

infobleep

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Yes,like Southern passengers have been backing RMT 100%.
But some good news for Southern Guards & bad news for the public who want DOO & its benefits. Southern have had to defer some driver door closing until December.
What's the reason for this?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

Dave1987

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Contrary to watch XDM says I'm yet to find any evidence that Southern passengers are desperate for DOO to come in. Quite the contrary as far as I can see, just like I would suppose XDM would claim passengers are desperate for the ticket offices to close, even though again it would seem many passengers are totally against this as well.
 

jimm

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Indeed there have been repeated calls for more staffing/policing on the railways in London. Even talk of women only carriages. Visible staff is always something that comes up, yet the DfT, TfL and operators apart from SWT seem to believe that only station staff is important. Its baffling really. It will be very interesting to see the outcome to the SW franchise. I have no doubt that if SWT guards become under threat next year passengers will back guards/the union 100%.

You seem to be confusing what the public wants - visible staff moving up and down inside trains - with staff being somewhere on a train.

There is a difference and SWT's non-commercial guards probably don't fit in too well with what the travelling public wants to see in terms of that visible presence, especially on London suburban services, so I suspect the commuters of south-west London won't actually be rushing to join the RMT on the picket lines outside Waterloo.
 

BestWestern

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You seem to be confusing what the public wants - visible staff moving up and down inside trains - with staff being somewhere on a train.

There is a difference and SWT's non-commercial guards probably don't fit in too well with what the travelling public wants to see in terms of that visible presence, especially on London suburban services, so I suspect the commuters of south-west London won't actually be rushing to join the RMT on the picket lines outside Waterloo.

Utlimately, it is up to Guards to prove their worth to the public. The technical arguments could go on for a lifetime, but the travelling public will judge on their own experiences. It is paramount, more now than ever, that those fortunate enough to have one of the best frontline jobs on the railway, are making the effort to get out and about and showing their passengers why it is something worth fighting for.
 

AlterEgo

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Contrary to watch XDM says I'm yet to find any evidence that Southern passengers are desperate for DOO to come in. Quite the contrary as far as I can see, just like I would suppose XDM would claim passengers are desperate for the ticket offices to close, even though again it would seem many passengers are totally against this as well.

It's not contrary to what he said.

Passengers don't back RMT and don't give a toss, in general, about DOO. I don't think he claimed passengers are pro-DOO. What they'd really like is for their trains to run on time, and not much else.

Passengers don't give much of a toss about ticket offices either. Look at the Tube. It still runs, and carries as many passengers as ever, even though a huge swathe of ticket offices got closed. Passengers half heartedly bleat about "oh well we don't want ticket offices to close", but when they do and they realise the sky hasn't fallen in, then what?
 

IKB

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Most people (especially in commuterville) go about their train journeys without thinking/worrying about the presence of a second person on the train. 99% of the journeys they take are incident free. When the debate in the media is boiled down to door opening/closing it really doesn't phase them one way or the other.

Where RMT have been rubbish with their PR is the failure to communicate effectively what happens on the 1% when something is amiss. The ill passenger, the frisky/rowdy drunk, the person stuck in the loo etc etc.

I've watched TV bulletins with Mick Cash talking about the "train platform interface" but apart from one select committee appearance haven't seen him or others use RAIB figures, hasn't held up an image of what in-cab CCTV looks like, hasn't fully explained the reality of one person in charge of a 12 coach train (fault delays, safety etc), hasn't pointed to Gatwick Express being de-staffed as an example of what inevitably will happen...and on and on.

In that vacuum the media fill it with "opening and closing train doors" as the narrative of the dispute.
 

Dave1987

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It's not contrary to what he said.

Passengers don't back RMT and don't give a toss, in general, about DOO. I don't think he claimed passengers are pro-DOO. What they'd really like is for their trains to run on time, and not much else.

Passengers don't give much of a toss about ticket offices either. Look at the Tube. It still runs, and carries as many passengers as ever, even though a huge swathe of ticket offices got closed. Passengers half heartedly bleat about "oh well we don't want ticket offices to close", but when they do and they realise the sky hasn't fallen in, then what?

Do you see just what you want to see? The utter chaos at LU ticket machines with vast queues of people waiting and one person to supervise the whole lot.

A couple of days ago one of my colleagues who works in a ticket office was telling me that they had a passenger who had used a TVM to get their ticket but ended up with a single instead of a return. They were extremely happy that the ticket office was open and they were able to be given the ticket they wanted. When the government gets their way and all the ticket offices are closed and Guards got rid of and there are few customer facing staff I'm sure passengers will see it as progress... Not!!!
 

313103

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It's not contrary to what he said.

Passengers don't back RMT and don't give a toss, in general, about DOO. I don't think he claimed passengers are pro-DOO. What they'd really like is for their trains to run on time, and not much else.

Passengers don't give much of a toss about ticket offices either. Look at the Tube. It still runs, and carries as many passengers as ever, even though a huge swathe of ticket offices got closed. Passengers half heartedly bleat about "oh well we don't want ticket offices to close", but when they do and they realise the sky hasn't fallen in, then what?

The passengers dont give a toss about ticket office closures or if the train is manned or not because it doesnt affect them unless the train is cancelled.

As a result of them not giving a toss they then cannot moan when they want something that they now cannot get.
 

AlterEgo

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Do you see just what you want to see? The utter chaos at LU ticket machines with vast queues of people waiting and one person to supervise the whole lot.

A couple of days ago one of my colleagues who works in a ticket office was telling me that they had a passenger who had used a TVM to get their ticket but ended up with a single instead of a return. They were extremely happy that the ticket office was open and they were able to be given the ticket they wanted. When the government gets their way and all the ticket offices are closed and Guards got rid of and there are few customer facing staff I'm sure passengers will see it as progress... Not!!!

I'm not saying it's a good thing. I'm saying passengers don't care on the whole.

Journeys made remain the same. The money comes in.

People will get used to the ticket machines, in time. I'm afraid that booking offices on metro and subway systems are another thing of the past.
 
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