All to often fresh talent turn out to be business students that have worked in Sainsburys that's the problem. Glad things are going okay at your TOC, pity about the others!
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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal
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All to often fresh talent turn out to be business students that have worked in Sainsburys that's the problem. Glad things are going okay at your TOC, pity about the others!
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Because they want a resolution as much as the staff do?
So they have decided to pay staff to do no work as a gesture of goodwill?
As they say, history repeats itself. I think this time it's the farce variant.
Network Rail is full of those sort of managers!
No they have decided to pay the staff to do no work because the staff are at work as their contracts require them to be and if they're at work as they are contracted to be they have to be paid.
But if there is still a strike timetable for the rest of the week, albeit with the hope of extra trains if they can run them, surely Southern would have been no worse off by letting the strike run until the weekend? The dispute could still be resolved at the weekend. I see no advantage from Southern's point of view.
How can Southern allow a strike to continue? If the staff appear for work, as contracted, Southern can't just send them away and tell them to go back on strike!
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I take that you have personal knowledge that enables you to make such a "blanket statement". When you say "full", what is the percentage of "those sort of managers" that your intimate knowledge of these percentage figures allow you to tell us?
But didn't they agree suddenly to "no preconditions"?
You're right in that I agree many, including me, have had non railway careers. 10 years, say, on the railway is going to make it hard to go back to former careers though.
I don't think you could but people on here were defending Govia so I'm now askinf. the question, are Govia wrong? In my mind, without checking every post from day 1, this change seems to fly in the face within of what people said about why Govia weren't doing that and what was the point of doing that.
If there's no point, why have Govia done it?
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
It is not what third-party hearsay what people said about what GoVia were or were not doing, it is the matter of what the company itself was actually involved with.
Sprinter153
Member
A few people have said about managers downloading Avantix data, checking people are walking through etc.
In my experience managers are scared of the union response and scared of 'rocking the boat', whatever that is. Many of them are new and inexperienced on the railway and I can see that a lot of the 'old hands' can be quite intimidating to deal with.
At my end standards are really poor. Some guards have to be coaxed to walk through even once on a journey. Some people take empty Avantix bags to make it look like they have one to any passing managers (and when caught the response is 'they can't make me walk through/check tickets'). Platforms are not observed when dispatching by many either.
It makes me weep. I rather like my job. I do it quite well, so the passengers tell me. I firmly believe in the value of the Guards role and I am developing myself professionally (to try and justify my salary by not being 'unskilled and overpaid' like some here believe). But the people with some of the most contempt for the role aren't my managers, or their managers, it's a number of my colleagues.
And many of the worst offenders are union reps. A lot of the worst offenders are also the most prolific wavers of yellow anti-DOO badges. If you want to make a stand about DOO, do it by proving your worth and driving up standards, not doing what you can get away with.
In my experience managers are scared of the union response and scared of 'rocking the boat', whatever that is. Many of them are new and inexperienced on the railway and I can see that a lot of the 'old hands' can be quite intimidating to deal with.
At my end standards are really poor. Some guards have to be coaxed to walk through even once on a journey. Some people take empty Avantix bags to make it look like they have one to any passing managers (and when caught the response is 'they can't make me walk through/check tickets'). Platforms are not observed when dispatching by many either.
It makes me weep. I rather like my job. I do it quite well, so the passengers tell me. I firmly believe in the value of the Guards role and I am developing myself professionally (to try and justify my salary by not being 'unskilled and overpaid' like some here believe). But the people with some of the most contempt for the role aren't my managers, or their managers, it's a number of my colleagues.
And many of the worst offenders are union reps. A lot of the worst offenders are also the most prolific wavers of yellow anti-DOO badges. If you want to make a stand about DOO, do it by proving your worth and driving up standards, not doing what you can get away with.
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From the horse's mouth. No he/ she's not telling tales. This is self-evidently the truth. What a damning evidence this is.
Indeed. It tallies with my experience too.
I used to read the company council minutes when I worked at Virgin. Which is probably why I take anything ASLEF and the RMT say with a hundred pinches of salt. I could tell a lot of stories about p*sstaking but Sprinter153 tells it like it is.
Flamingo
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But for every Guard that Sprinter describes, there are many who do the job to the best of their ability. They are let down by poor management of the guards who take the **** - if I was cynical, I'd say that there are those in the industry who WANT the poor guards to continue with bad habits and barely adequate performance, as this will eventually allow the grade to be discontinued with.
But again, I would stress, the bad guards are in the minority. There are many who are doing a good job, in some cases with the support of their manager, in some cases despite their manager.
But again, I would stress, the bad guards are in the minority. There are many who are doing a good job, in some cases with the support of their manager, in some cases despite their manager.
Sprinter153
Member
Absolutely. I think the bad ones breed though. My own depot is renowned amongst guards based elsewhere for being a hotbed of lackadaisical ne'er-do-wells. To the point where you are booked to assist another depot's TM, you'll introduce yourself and ask how you can help and get a roll of the eyes and a 'sit down mate'!
In fact, you probably have an idea from that!
The interesting thing I find is though that at our place generally as well, we get on pretty well between management and the staff. There's the inevitable arguments around pay talks time as we sit and watch the drivers get another gold deal and we're lucky to get what's left, and occasionally they'll do something particularly daft and wind us up, or we will make a fuss over something silly.
But by and large on a day to day basis things are pretty cordial. The company for example due to staff shortages at a remote depot with a small complement is basically currently relying on guards from another depot staying in hotels to cover their work despite the lack of a lodging agreement. Yet we get on with it and take our turn to keep the trains running.
I've lost count of the number of times I've had a phone call from the TCS or rosters asking me to change my shift or come in at short notice (the record is less than an hour from doing my weekly shop over 10 miles away to being on a train to avoid it's cancellation) and generally speaking I and most others will oblige if we can (sometimes you have to say no and that's life).
Equally when I've been a few minutes late or had problems that require my shifts to change or short notice leave, it's never been an issue.
It suits us and it suits the management. No doubt either side finds the other exasperating from time to time but by and large we get on with keeping the job going with a fleet of very tired trains and a whole host of other issues.
The thing with these disputes and those companies affected is that good will is destroyed. The whole doing it cloak and dagger with the Government pulling the strings stinks and has ruined what is at times a very delicate balance. The approach is terrible and especially in the case of GTR the damage may well be irreparable across pretty much all grades.
But by and large on a day to day basis things are pretty cordial. The company for example due to staff shortages at a remote depot with a small complement is basically currently relying on guards from another depot staying in hotels to cover their work despite the lack of a lodging agreement. Yet we get on with it and take our turn to keep the trains running.
I've lost count of the number of times I've had a phone call from the TCS or rosters asking me to change my shift or come in at short notice (the record is less than an hour from doing my weekly shop over 10 miles away to being on a train to avoid it's cancellation) and generally speaking I and most others will oblige if we can (sometimes you have to say no and that's life).
Equally when I've been a few minutes late or had problems that require my shifts to change or short notice leave, it's never been an issue.
It suits us and it suits the management. No doubt either side finds the other exasperating from time to time but by and large we get on with keeping the job going with a fleet of very tired trains and a whole host of other issues.
The thing with these disputes and those companies affected is that good will is destroyed. The whole doing it cloak and dagger with the Government pulling the strings stinks and has ruined what is at times a very delicate balance. The approach is terrible and especially in the case of GTR the damage may well be irreparable across pretty much all grades.
Flamingo
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Of course, if the lazy ones are seen to get away with it, some others will think "Why should I bother". But that's a management failure, IMO.
Definitely. There are a lot of poor managers out there. Maybe it's a vicious circle - most line managers are promoted from staff, so if you have bad staff you will tend to get bad managers, etc.
Hence the don't rock the boat culture, some workers are on "fiddles" and it's known, but so are some managers. Blind eyes are turned to certain working arrangements.
Before Cannon street, way back, drinking was not unheard of on the railways. It was not unusual for management to go to one side of the pub and everyone else to the other, or workers to use one pub in town, and management another.
While the DFT pays some of the bills, with austerity in mind, reclassification of NR, whether goodwill is destroyed or not, someone was always going to tighten belts. They don't care because unlike BR days people are queuing up to fill these jobs.
Before Cannon street, way back, drinking was not unheard of on the railways. It was not unusual for management to go to one side of the pub and everyone else to the other, or workers to use one pub in town, and management another.
While the DFT pays some of the bills, with austerity in mind, reclassification of NR, whether goodwill is destroyed or not, someone was always going to tighten belts. They don't care because unlike BR days people are queuing up to fill these jobs.
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I know it's about Govia and the unions but I am interested in people's views, especially right now the views of those defending Govia for their reasonings prior to not arranging to meet with no preconditions vers now agreeing to do so.
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
If that be the case, why mention the matter in the first place in the knowledge that you cannot be asked to develop the theme?
In one place I was contracting at, a union rep was swinging his leg. They didn't want to do anything because it might cause a strike.
At the same time some other staff, who I worked along side, we're given copies of there terms and conditions of employment. These did not match the ones they signed. Only because they kept copies were they able to go and prove this. Needless to say these different ones were not as good!
I think that sums up some management and union reps. In between are just those trying to do their job as best they can.
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74A couldn't see how GTR could compromise, yet the strike has been called off. I assume because GTR compromised. Is my understanding correct?
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Deepgreen
Established Member
Sorry - I don't understand the parts in bold.
Clearly GTR now think they should, as they have agreed to talks with no preconditions attached but haven't invited any passengers along as far as I'm aware.
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Fincra5
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Unfortunately I can't see the talks coming to anything unless the DfT changes its stance on GTR .
The chances of that are between slim and none; and Slim just left town.
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