BestWestern
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You aren't really that naive, are you.....?!
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Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal
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You aren't really that naive, are you.....?!
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Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
It seems that there are a few in this debate who do have a deep insight into their own working practices that they often remind others about, but then make "blanket assertions" about other roles of the industry that their actual knowledge of is minimal at best.
Bromley boy
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Highdyke, this is by no means an attempt to get into another slagging match, but a genuine question.
I struggle to understand your angle.
By your own admission you're an ex professional railwayman, a signaller, whose since left the industry. As such you must have a good understanding of the issues involved.
There is a great deal of resentment and mutual dislike between signallers and drivers - one of the failings of the industry in my view. I've been into a few boxes myself, off my own back through interest and been made tea and allowed to throw points and signal trains (in absolute block, lots of fun and hard physical work
). Do you think you've internalised some of this resentment and allowed it to fester? It's a pity you now seem to be champing at the bit for dubious efficiency savings to cost other railwayman (and former kindred spirits) their jobs!
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Unfortunately that is a historical quirk of the industry. Mutual distrust and dislike between the grades within a TOC, let alone NR signallers and drivers. I've learned to be slow to throw stones for precisely that reason.
"The driver at the front thinks the guards a c***, the guard thinks the drivers the same" etc.
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the sniper
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After months of being taught Highdyke's largely theoretical guide to the modern railway, do you really need to ask that question?
BestWestern
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After months of being taught Highdyke's largely theoretical guide to the modern railway, do you really need to ask that question?
Hmm, it sounds like they're describing the class 700s, which do have an automatic door open feature for use in the core. Assuming the journalist isn't fully up to speed with the specifics of which services are DOO or not, it's a fairly admissible mistake IMO, given that they are part of the same company and will be operating some routes that Southern operate now in the near future.
Ok start up a business and ditch things that add value, and take on assets that don't. Try and get funding for it and see how long you last.
GTR have guaranteed jobs until the end of the franchise, that's all they can do.
I'm happy to accept the idea that on-board staff do add value yes, so I don't buy into the hysteria. If things change it's not unreasonable to change practices and redeploy staff no. Thus in the interest new trains and services can be deployed because efficiencies have been made and the business case is sound and/or there are more efficient ways of operating.
I do not support fringe left movements for the support of keeping old practices/kicking the Government whatever shade/power or pay grab for the sake of it or employing deadwood, which costs me and other people when I buy a ticket.
I think GTR could have done a lot better explaining things to staff and the public, and the Unions can do a lot better coming to a sensible compromise, rather than punishing hundreds of thousands of people day in and day out to get unrealistic guarantees and defend safety issues that are just not there in general. (Not saying we couldn't do more with better doors for trap and drag or kit cannot be improved in general).
So no, I'm not naive. Rational, logical and one of the few people that actually "gets it" on this forum.
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After months of being taught Highdyke's largely theoretical guide to the modern railway, do you really need to ask that question?
Still waiting for the evidence rather than listening to the paranoid rantings of the far left and Luddite community I'm afraid.
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HSTEd
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Why does the railway care about adding value - it is not and never will be a commercial industry. Additionally it is effectively the only choice to get from Brighton or similar into London in Rush Hour.
It has its customer base over a barrel.
It could remove all the seats and replace them with spikes and it would still have large scale customer growth.
The RMT giving in on this transfer of doors to drivers would be the end of on board staff - another one would never be hired ever and everything possible would be done to dispose of the existing ones. Just like on Scotrail.
Borderline constructive dismissal will be the name of the game. Depots will be reorganised and moved a hundred miles away or whatnot. And these agreements have been demonstrated to not be worth the paper they are written on.
This is a last ditch effort because it will be a single crew on every train railway if they lose.
It has its customer base over a barrel.
It could remove all the seats and replace them with spikes and it would still have large scale customer growth.
The RMT giving in on this transfer of doors to drivers would be the end of on board staff - another one would never be hired ever and everything possible would be done to dispose of the existing ones. Just like on Scotrail.
Borderline constructive dismissal will be the name of the game. Depots will be reorganised and moved a hundred miles away or whatnot. And these agreements have been demonstrated to not be worth the paper they are written on.
This is a last ditch effort because it will be a single crew on every train railway if they lose.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
What will be the five-day strike-pay percentages be of the average rail-staff salary normally accepted figure in terms of comparison to the grades of rail-staff involved.
As one speaking from the outside of this dispute but one aware of the cost of living in 2016, can I ask when it was that the current strike-pay figure was last established by the trades unions involved and like the trade union acceptance of the wage structure they negotiate for their members with TOC, is it not the union policy to run their strike-pay percentage remuneration in tandem to wage actuality? If not, why not?
Do they not act "in the best interests of their members", as we are so often reminded by the leaders of these trades unions?
As one speaking from the outside of this dispute but one aware of the cost of living in 2016, can I ask when it was that the current strike-pay figure was last established by the trades unions involved and like the trade union acceptance of the wage structure they negotiate for their members with TOC, is it not the union policy to run their strike-pay percentage remuneration in tandem to wage actuality? If not, why not?
Do they not act "in the best interests of their members", as we are so often reminded by the leaders of these trades unions?
Highdyke, this is by no means an attempt to get into another slagging match, but a genuine question.
I struggle to understand your angle.
By your own admission you're an ex professional railwayman, a signaller, whose since left the industry. As such you must have a good understanding of the issues involved.
There is a great deal of resentment and mutual dislike between signallers and drivers - one of the failings of the industry in my view. I've been into a few boxes myself, off my own back through interest and been made tea and allowed to throw points and signal trains (in absolute block, lots of fun and hard physical work
Do you think you've internalised some of this resentment and allowed it to fester? It's a pity you now seem to be champing at the bit for dubious efficiency savings to cost other railwayman (and former kindred spirits) their jobs!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Oddly, you might be surprised how much I agree with some people. Things might come across one way, but the intention is not as you might imagine. Put in this way, I have told you some things, but not others. You would be very shocked if you knew the whole story, and I do know some things I'm not going to divulge.
Actually I know who quite a few on this forum are, one or two I feel very sorry for, especially the Guards.
As for Drivers, nothing against them, I don't think they get some things about the railways, and vice versa for signalman. Training maybe? My Grandad was a Driver, my Great Grandad on the LNER was too, having checked my family tree I have relatives that were platelayers on the Tanfield, Clerks and managers on the LBSCR, people on the LNER and GER. Apart from the people that were Boilsmiths for ships and railway locos that go right back. I spent the first years of my life near the first steam railway in the world. It's in the blood.
Maybe I'm trying to save people from themselves, or perhaps I can see something others can't? Cryptic huh?
Best leave it there.
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Bromley boy
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Cryptic indeed. And we have certain things in common, more than I realised before perhaps.
The railway is in the blood for me as well. My second cousin has been a driver for almost 40 years, and is an avid model railway enthusiast. In sure many of us on here would say the same.
It's a shame you had negative experiences in the industry that put you off it... I feel very sorry for the guards as well, and are you really "saving people from themselves" when the jobs at stake here are paying mortgages, rent etc. and raising young families.
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the sniper
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Exactly. We don't 'get it' like Highdyke though, the self appointed saviour of non-operational grades, but sadly neither does the industry as a whole.
Exactly, quite a few of the railway middle management I've come across in recent years, have now either moved on or have been moved on for various reasons suggesting the reality is far from the rather cosy long term job some appear to think it might be
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I don't think anyone has said it is - my personal opinion is that most people doing low/middle level railway management must be nuts as it has all the job security of seasonal fairground ride operator - certainly at some TOCs the management appear to be put upon more than the staff. I know I earn more than my managers with a small amount of overtime.
I see plenty going on and I'm fairly convinced the whole system is rotten but I'd there's always someone stamping on someone else to cause it and the managers are as often as not also victims.
Removing the mandatory second member of train crew isn't however the way forward.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
They could, of course, keep the guards...
If we pay the same number of people the same wage to be on the same train, as GTR are saying, then where are the savings? Flexibility in operational disruption wouldn't pay Horton's tea and biscuits bill.
The only way the business case stacks up is if we have fewer OBS and we pay them less. Which means jobs are at risk. It may not be compulsory redundancy at first, but if the OBS is a dead duck role (and it is) then natural wastage will see many leave without being replaced.
We can have an argument about the value of on board staff. But GTR will count it in pounds and pence. Just as they did with catering staff and just as they did with the OBS equivalent on Gatwick Express, a supposed premium service that would be more likely to justify the personal touch from staff.
I don't know if you're naïve or disingenuous, and maybe I am a "paranoid Luddite". But I'll ask one question: do you think the business case stacks up if we take GTR's promises at face value? I don't.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Paul - :roll: you are always banging on about strike pay. I doubt any union has the resources to cover the full pay of all striking members for every minute of strike action. Why are you so obsessed with this? Could you clearly explain your point?
I am certain that the price of your ticket will only go up regardless of how many staff members are sacked.
I am happy to admit that I am quite thick and don't have your sophisticated understanding of the life, the universe and everything. For my benefit, and no doubt the benefit of many other thickos to ashamed to be honest, could you clearly spell out what it is that we don't "get" but you do?
1. You don't need to be commercial to want to add value. The statement is so ridiculous that I can hardly believe you wrote it.
2. Much of the railway is a commercial industry. Parts of it were even under BR. The government would like more of it to become so. The fact that many people feel they have to use the railway regardless doesn't alter that fact. We all have to buy food; does that mean supermarkets aren't commercial? A much closer comparison is with buses, where there are fully commercial routes and subsidised routes. All that happens in rail is that the latter are hidden.
scouseyb123
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I am a Train Manager working for an intercity TOC and DOO could never work. The role of the guard is essential
Deepgreen
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The converse of adding value is reducing cost, which is a basic goal for any operation, 'commercial' or not.
Harbornite
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Not every customer of the railway is a commuter. What about long distance leisure travel and all that?
Im afraid a guard had not been essential on the railway since 1984. I agree on a intercity TOC having a member of staff on board is useful but not essential and they don't have to be a guard.
scouseyb123
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Unfortunately, you could not be more wrong if you tried
Why?
The doors on the Voyager, for instance, are controlled by the driver, it would be relatively straightforward from a technological point of view to get rid of the Train Manager and/or merge them into the catering staff.
The IEP is likely to be very similar, and indeed GWR mooted the IEP running as DOO, with the Train Manager becoming part of the service crew.
I don't agree with DOO for InterCity services, but I wouldn't be arguing that "the role of the guard is essential". XC's trains could theoretically run tomorrow without a guard.
Unfortunately, you could not be more wrong if you tried
That is just a statement, not an argument. Expand and discuss perhaps?
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Why not read my posting again to see what it says word for word. It is not an obsession. Loyal union members who follow the instructions of their trades union to strike do so in the full knowledge of how much this will cost them financially and strike pay is supposed to be of assistance to them to deal with living costs.
Start off by answering the query as to when it was the strike pay level was last set and say how much that is as an average percentage of the salaries normally earned.
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Unfortunately, you could not be more wrong if you tried
That is a powerful argument. You'll have to do much better than that or go back to sleep.
Whatever you are, you have always been polite unlike some. I don't think it's being thick, it's thinking from different angles. Some are people are too conspiratorial or inward looking, not helped by the rubbish that comes out of the trade unions, or perhaps statements that have been made from the other side.
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