Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Carlisle]

The last paragraph of my last reply to you was unnecessarily harsh - so apologies for that (put it down to the lateness of the hour ).

Aside from that, I hope you can see my point. Rail staff wages are a constant whipping boy in the UK, and for no good reason. People would do better to focus on bettering their own careers and earnings before criticising others, particularly when they generally have little idea of the nature of the job involved.

No worries , I work with many staff on much higher wages than myself but they're better qualified so I like to think I'm not bitter

 

[highdyke]

Rail staff wages are a constant whipping boy in the UK, and for no good reason. People would do better to focus on bettering their own careers and earnings before criticising others, particularly when they generally have little idea of the nature of the job involved.

No it doesn't work like that, if you turn up to the station and a walk on ticket is more expensive than a flight to the USA and btw, the trains not running tomorrow because tomorrow is Sunday/we're on strike/no train crew/other excuse. Yet you look at salaries from top to bottom, the overspends on projects, falling productivity in some areas, yet the railways still want £5 billion public cash, questions should be asked. That's money people could spend on themselves/families instead or money the government could spend on protecting is from crime, terrorism, war, life saving treatments.

I noted ASLEF wanted immunity from prosecution in a similar case to the guard in Merseyside, the RMT wants jobs for life. Who else gets this?

It is not unreasonable to expect a reliable, value for money transport system that delivers. If other industries/companies don't give the service, people complain.

I don't think anyone really gives a damn who is paid what if the service is there. The RMT/ASLEF want people on their side, but let's not talk about the salaries shall we....

As an enthusiast I mainly care about the sustainability of the system and new services. Many of which don't wash their face because of high delivery and operating costs and we end up getting buses or more roads instead.

It worries me people cannot see this and feel such a disconnect from the real world. Most people do not care about the internal workings of the railways no more than Tescos, National Grid, Easy jet, Severn Trent water, BMW cars, Microsoft or anyone else. They just want VFM and a decent product.

 

[Bromley boy]

No worries , I work with many staff on much higher wages than myself but they're better qualified so I like to think I'm not bitter

I'm sure you will get there. Wages are not everything. Enjoyment and job satisfaction are way more important.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No it doesn't work like that, if you turn up to the station and a walk on ticket is more expensive than a flight to the USA and btw, the trains not running tomorrow because tomorrow is Sunday/we're on strike/no train crew/other excuse. Yet you look at salaries from top to bottom, the overspends on projects, falling productivity in some areas, yet the railways still want £5 billion public cash, questions should be asked.

I noted ASLEF wanted immunity from prosecution in a similar case to the guard in Merseyside, the RMT wants jobs for life. Who else gets this?

It is not unreasonable to expect a reliable, value for money transport system that delivers. If other industries/companies don't give the service, people complain.

I don't think anyone really gives a damn who is paid what if the service is there.

As an enthusiast I mainly care about the sustainability of the system and new services. Many of which don't wash their face because of high delivery and operating costs and we end up getting buses or more roads instead.

It worries me people cannot see this. Most people do not care about th internal workings of the railways no more than Tescos, National Grid, Easy jet, Severn Trent water, BMW cars, Microsoft or anyone else. They just want VFM and a decent product.

Agreed re the inefficiency and overspends.

As I've said previously, high rail fares are a result of the longstanding government policy in the UK to put much of the cost onto fare payers, rather than spreading it around tax payers. Staff costs are a small proportion of the enormous expense of running the railway.

We can argue until we are blue in the face about whether or not that is the correct policy. My point is that blaming staff wages for high rail fares is simply wrong.

It's also naive in the extreme to suppose that any job on the railway is a job for life. The driver role in particular is very difficult to obtain and very, very easily lost. Frankly I think drivers are underpaid for the responsibilities they assume.

 

[highdyke]

It all comes out of the same pot when we [The people that use the system and pay for it] get the bill. Direct and indirect staff costs make up over half over the bill.

Whether drivers are underpaid or overpaid is another debate, many jobs have lots of responsibility. At the bottom of that list in the Mirror, was Lollypop ladies getting hundred of kids safety across the road on a few grand a year, that's a huge responsibility.

If you don't want people to question salaries, don't ask for public money, provide a VFM service that's reliable, and avoid withdrawing that service when people rely on it. And if you want sympathy when you do go on strike, make sure your pay and conditions are some of the worse, not the best and there's a real safety risk not a "what if" in 20 years when 30 billion passengers have been carried safely. Oh and when the public need need help, don't hide in the back cabs.

Sorry to sound harsh, as an enthusiast I know there is a lot more success stories stories than the media/railway press would dare to let us believe and the system works most of the time. But you cannot expect people on your side given the background, and people need to sort it out and stop being selfish.

 

[Bromley boy]

It all comes out of the same pot when we get the bill. Direct and indirect staff costs make up over half over the bill.

Whether drivers are underpaid or overpaid is another debate, many jobs have lots of responsibility. At the bottom of that list in the Mirror, was Lollypop ladies getting hundred of kids safety across the road on a few grand a year, that's a huge responsibility.

If you don't want people to question salaries, don't ask for public money, provide a VFM service that's reliable, and avoid withdrawing that service when people rely on it. And if you want sympathy when you do go on strike, make sure your pay and conditions are some of the worse, not the best and there's a real safety risk not a "what if" in 20 years when 30 billion passengers have been carried safely. Oh and when the public need need help, don't hide in the back cabs.

Once again you're ignoring my previous point, "we" means, fare payers/tax payers in varying proportions. Those proportions are determined by the elected government. If you don't like it, use your vote appropriately!

Pay and conditions? Not ideal when you're spat at, sworn at and shouted at. That **** cycling/skateboarding alongside the train... Don't close the doors and power away or it's a manslaughter charge when he's cut in half. * that by 100 station stops per day. No walk in the park. I suspect your job involves sitting behind a PC?! Walk a mile in these people's shoes before you comment!

And you are showing your ignorance. How exactly does a driver hide in the back cab?! Sweet Jesus. Please let me know.

 

[highdyke]

Once again you're ignoring my previous point, "we" means, fare payers/tax payers in varying proportions. Those proportions are determined by the elected government. If you don't like it, use your vote appropriately!

Most people travel by road, not railway, yet the railways get the same cash.

Pay and conditions? Not ideal when you're spat at, sworn at and shouted at. That **** cycling/skateboarding alongside the train... Don't close the doors and power away or it's a manslaughter charge when he's cut in half. * that by 100 station stops per day. No walk in the park. I suspect your job involves sitting behind a PC?! Walk a mile in these people's shoes before you comment!

Read my posts, been there, done it.

And you are showing your ignorance. How exactly does a driver hide in the back cab?! Sweet Jesus. Please let me know.

I'm talking about Guards and this is what the dispute is about.

Excuse, excuse, excuse.....Stop making them, sort it out.

 

[Bromley boy]

Most people travel by road, not railway, yet the railways get the same cash.



Read my posts, been there, done it.




I'm talking about Guards and this is what the dispute is about.

Excuse, excuse, excuse.....Stop making them, sort it out.

Most people travel by road?! Not in London they don't.

Excuse excuse excuse, well get voting then! If you don't like the system, change it.

Green eyed monster possibly? As a rail enthusiast you don't seem to like the railway very much... Well if you don't like it, don't use it. Stop ****ing on people doing an honest day's work for an honest day's pay!

 

[Fincra5]

Too many other posters here use the argument that DOO is safe, ergo, can be used everywhere. Scotland has the Strathclyde Agreement, so everyone else can have something similar.

Many lines in the COUNTRY are not suitable for DOO. DOO is NOT one size fits all.

I agree. In my opinion the coastways are NOT suitable for DOO. Partly because they're barely staffed on stations... and largely because the low sun (rising and setting) can completely white-wash the 377 cameras making it impossible to see whats going on (Not what I'd call safe!).

Also.. this talk of fares and wages - I couldn't honestly see fares decreasing due to staffing cuts. I'm sure they'll go up every year as normal.

 

[Bromley boy]

Most people travel by road?! Not in London they don't.

Excuse excuse excuse, well get voting then! If you don't like the system, change it.

Green eyed monster possibly? As a rail enthusiast you don't seem to like the railway very much... Well if you don't like it, don't use it. Stop ****ing on people doing an honest day's work for an honest day's pay!

Most people travel by road, not railway, yet the railways get the same cash.



Read my posts, been there, done it.




I'm talking about Guards and this is what the dispute is about.

Excuse, excuse, excuse.....Stop making them, sort it out.

And re your other comment (been there done it). Have you ever driven a train? If not you aren't qualified to comment...

 

[dviner]

On the subject of "lollipop ladies":
Source:
https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/schoolcrossingpatrol.aspx

Income
You would normally be paid by the hour.
Salaries start at around £6.70 an hour.
With experience this could rise to around £7.50 an hour or more.
You may only get paid during term time. Some employers may spread your salary over the year and offer you half-pay during the school holidays.
Figures are intended as a guideline only.

So, a couple of hours a day at minimum wage, and only during term time. Not even enough to trigger income tax (if it's your only income).

Additionally, the Daily Mail figures were from 2014.

This is in no way intended to be dismissive of the fine work of the School Crossing Patrols, but purely to illustrate the disparity in salaries.

 

[highdyke]

And re your other comment (been there done it). Have you ever driven a train? If not you aren't qualified to comment...

Why are you commenting on DOO, as 4 jobs are involved at least?

No I am keen on the railways, but high costs and service reliability undermines the case. Outside London they are very hard to justify, most of the business cases just don't add up.

 

[infobleep]

No it doesn't work like that, if you turn up to the station and a walk on ticket is more expensive than a flight to the USA and btw, the trains not running tomorrow because tomorrow is Sunday/we're on strike/no train crew/other excuse. Yet you look at salaries from top to bottom, the overspends on projects, falling productivity in some areas, yet the railways still want £5 billion public cash, questions should be asked. That's money people could spend on themselves/families instead or money the government could spend on protecting is from crime, terrorism, war, life saving treatments.

I noted ASLEF wanted immunity from prosecution in a similar case to the guard in Merseyside, the RMT wants jobs for life. Who else gets this?

It is not unreasonable to expect a reliable, value for money transport system that delivers. If other industries/companies don't give the service, people complain.

I don't think anyone really gives a damn who is paid what if the service is there. The RMT/ASLEF want people on their side, but let's not talk about the salaries shall we....

As an enthusiast I mainly care about the sustainability of the system and new services. Many of which don't wash their face because of high delivery and operating costs and we end up getting buses or more roads instead.

It worries me people cannot see this and feel such a disconnect from the real world. Most people do not care about the internal workings of the railways no more than Tescos, National Grid, Easy jet, Severn Trent water, BMW cars, Microsoft or anyone else. They just want VFM and a decent product.

When you say more than a flight to the USA, do you mean if a ticket for the USA was purchased for travel immediately at that precise time or a ticket to the US purchased in advance? If in advance then you should be purchasing your tail ticket in advance too! Like for like as reasonably possible is a fair comparison.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Bromley boy]

Why are you commenting on DOO, as 4 jobs are involved at least?

No I am keen on the railways, but high costs and service reliability undermines the case. Outside London they are very hard to justify, most of the business cases just don't add up.

Why am I commenting on DOO? Erm, well, I drive DOO trains. I reckon that qualifies me pretty well. Unless you know better of course.

4 jobs? What are you talking about?!

You may be keen on the railways but show an incredible ignorance. I'd like you to address some of the points I've raised in my previous replies, please.

 

[highdyke]

4 jobs? What are you talking about?!

Guards/Drivers/Signallers/Station dispatch non DOO

Signallers/Drivers/Station dispatch DOO

You may be keen on the railways but show an incredible ignorance. I'd like you to address some of the points I've raised in my previous replies, please.

Not half as much ignorance as you show to the bigger picture. Which ones in particular?

 

[Bromley boy]

Guards/Drivers/Signallers/Station dispatch non DOO

Signallers/Drivers/Station dispatch DOO



Not half as much ignorance as you show to the bigger picture. Which ones in particular?

Signallers dispatch trains do they? I'll be sure to buzz the signaller on the GSMR tomorrow, and tell him to do that. That'll be news to my DI as well.

Showing your ignorance, and it isn't pretty.

 

[highdyke]

Unless you have done that job you are not qualified to comment, sorry. It's as much as part of DOO as the other roles. Indeed in truth neither role is, only someone that can do full statistical analysis and risk assessment.

 

[Dave1987]

It worries me people cannot see this and feel such a disconnect from the real world. Most people do not care about the internal workings of the railways no more than Tescos, National Grid, Easy jet, Severn Trent water, BMW cars, Microsoft or anyone else. They just want VFM and a decent product.

Considering TOC staffing is probably one of the least wasteful parts of the railway your argument about VFM should be aimed elsewhere!

Certain parts of the railway industry are insanely wasteful, in fact the money that is wasted could probably fund guard pay on every single service throughout the country, every day of the year. Am I'm sure you are well aware of were that money is wasted so a bit rich of you to blame TOC staff for not being VFM!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unless you have done that job you are not qualified to comment, sorry. It's as much as part of DOO as the other roles.

The self-entitlement isn't pretty either.

So why have you been making comments about what the job is like for a DOO driver?

 

[highdyke]

So why have you been making comments about what the job is like for a DOO driver?

To remind people other parties are involved and there is a bigger picture?

 

[Bromley boy]

To counter the ignorance shown from train crew on other roles? To remind people other parties are involved and there is a bigger picture?

Well you seem to think you know all about the different train crew roles. Which have you done yourself, please?

And you think signallers dispatch trains?!

 

[highdyke]

Well you seem to think you know all about the different train crew roles. Which have you done yourself, please?

None, but it doesn't stop train crew commenting on everyone else though? Including the competence of RSSB, ORR, DFT and mangers.

And you think signallers dispatch trains?!

No I don't think signallers dispatch trains no, there are line protection and customer care duties involved, as well as dealing with incidents as well as taking lead responsibility for communications most of the time.

 

[Dave1987]

To counter the ignorance shown from train crew on other roles? To remind people other parties are involved and there is a bigger picture?

Even though you have said you haven't been a signaller for a very long time? All I have grasped from you posts is that you quit the railways years and years ago because you didn't see a future in it. Then pages and pages of posts on how you envisage the railways running on skeleton staffing, one presumes like I said before to vindicate your decision to leave.

 

[highdyke]

Even though you have said you haven't been a signaller for a very long time? All I have grasped from you posts is that you quit the railways years and years ago because you didn't see a future in it. Then pages and pages of posts on how you envisage the railways running on skeleton staffing, one presumes like I said before to vindicate your decision to leave.

I've worked DOO top grade, that qualifies me as much as you having full knowledge of the rule book and dealt with accidents.

 

[Dave1987]

I've worked DOO top grade, that qualifies me as much as you.

What grade box have you worked?

 

[Bromley boy]

None, but it doesn't stop train crew commenting on everyone else though?

And you think signallers dispatch trains?!

No I don't think signallers dispatch trains no, there are line protection and customer care duties involved, as well as dealing with incidents as well as taking lead responsibility for communications most of the time.

None...

Says it all really. Although you've contradicted yourself there given your earlier posts! I thought you were the expert on my job? Ha!

"Line protection and customer care duties involved".

You clearly don't have the first clue what you're talking about.

Time to stop before you embarrass yourself further?!

 

[highdyke]

None...

Says it all really. Although you've contradicted yourself there given your earlier posts! I thought you were the expert on my job? Ha!

"Line protection and customer care duties involved".

You clearly don't have the first clue what you're talking about.

Time to stop before you embarrass yourself further?!

So what are the line protection duties and customer care aspects then?

What grade box have you worked?

Give you a run on the rule book, any part of the UK infrastructure, accidents, history any time.

Which accident, part of the rule book, part of railway history and safety do you want to talk?

 

[Bromley boy]

So what are the line protection duties and customer care aspects then?



2-10, plus other jobs. Give you a run on the rule book, any part of the UK infrastructure, accidents, history any time.

You tell me, you're the expert?!

Since you ask I'll be driving a train tomorrow. What will you be doing?

You tell me about the protection duties I need to know. I'm all ears.

 

[highdyke]

You tell me, you're the expert?!

Since you ask I'll be driving a train tomorrow. What will you be doing?

You tell me about the protection duties I need to know. I'm all ears.

I'm asking you, you say you are an expert?

 

[Bromley boy]

I'm asking you, you say you are an expert?

Last time I reply to you.

My advice to you is as follows:

Emerge from behind your PC, get an education, a decent job of work and stop ignorantly commenting on things you know nothing about.

 

[highdyke]

Last time I reply to you.

My advice to you is as follows:

Emerge from behind your PC, get an education, a decent job of work and stop ignorantly commenting on things you know nothing about.

Ha Ha. Says he that can't even answer a basic question. You're not above any sort of questioning whatever you like to think.

 

[Bromley boy]

Even though you have said you haven't been a signaller for a very long time? All I have grasped from you posts is that you quit the railways years and years ago because you didn't see a future in it. Then pages and pages of posts on how you envisage the railways running on skeleton staffing, one presumes like I said before to vindicate your decision to leave.

Speaks volumes really. A failed signaller with a chip on his shoulder a mile high!