Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[LNW-GW Joint]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...strike-talks-start-with-hopes-of-breakthrough

Five days of strikes will go ahead on Southern rail services next week after talks broke down in recriminations between unions and the train company on Friday.
GTR, Southern’s operating company, said it had tabled a series of compromises but remained determined to press ahead with changes to the roles of conductors, claiming that the RMT union was unwilling to bend.
But the RMT claimed that the government had blocked any agreement. The union had earlier offered to suspend the strike planned from Monday if Southern could give similar guarantees to those it had accepted in a parallel dispute in Scotland

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So if they diverge, will travel on Scottish and English Railways, if travelling on Scotrail, be safer?

Sorry, not biting.
Safety (across the UK) is down to the RSSB and ORR.

 

[Robertj21a]

Press release from GTR:-

Press Release:
from Govia Thameslink Railway


Govia Thameslink Railway’s (GTR) proposals to settle the conductors’ dispute and avert next week’s five- day long strike were today rejected by RMT.

Talks at Acas have broken down after three days of discussion at which GTR tabled an eight-point compromise plan to settle the dispute and stop the strike action, which will now bring misery to hundreds of thousands of Southern passengers.

GTR offered the following new assurances, which the RMT rejected:

1. Collective bargaining rights for the new OBS role, ensuring that this group will have a voice within the organisation as well as full negotiation rights
2. A joint review of the OBS role after 12 months of operation, to look at role development, training and future career development
3. A guaranteed minimum level of voluntary overtime for all OBSs, the detail of which would be agreed with the RMT
4. A guarantee to retain the OBS role at the levels already guaranteed, beyond 2021, should GTR retain the franchise
5. Southern guarantee 2nd member of staff rostered to those trains that have them today
6. Conductors and OBS to retain safety competence including PTS and evacuation training, including non-dispatch route knowledge
7. Southern and RMT to agree a list of circumstances whereby a train would continue in service without a 2nd member of traincrew on board, in the interests of the customers
8. RMT to accept transfer of door-operation to the driver

This is on top of the commitments GTR has already made to the RMT, which include:

• No compulsory redundancies
• No reduction in salary
• No compulsory location moves
• A guaranteed, above-inflation pay-rise for the next two years
• An increase in the existing ‘shift premia’ (which is additional salary paid to staff for working voluntary overtime) to 20% over the next three years
• A promise to increase the number of back-up staff to help manage unplanned disruption – thereby ensuring the railway is staffed more in the future than it is today

Passenger Service Director Angie Doll said: “We have gone the extra mile with our compromise offer, but the RMT has made it clear they are not prepared to negotiate. They did not want to discuss the role of the On-Board Supervisor and remain rigidly opposed to evolving the role of on- board staff to focus more on customers. We are deeply disappointed and angry on behalf of our passengers at this stance, which will cause misery for our passengers and untold damage to the local economy in the southeast. The RMT’s strike is unnecessary, unacceptable and unjustified.

“We plan to have just as many services staffed with On-Board Supervisors as we do with Conductors today. We simply want the flexibility to be able to run a train without a second member of staff on board, if they are unavailable so we can get our passengers on their way. To provide assurances that we would do this only when absolutely necessary, we said we’d agree with the RMT a list of binding rules to dictate when this could happen – such as during severe disruption. Their refusal to even discuss this demonstrates their complete unwillingness to compromise.

“Our proposals match modern-day customer service to modern-day trains. The only difference is drivers will close the doors, freeing up our on-board staff to provide the best customer service. Our On-Board Supervisors will also be able to work on any service, which means more efficient working and fewer cancellations for our passengers.

“RMT’s plan to cease the dispute should GTR agree to the terms agreed in Scotland recently is a complete red herring. This amounts to a continuation of the current operating model and delivers none of the punctuality and customer service benefits we are determined to deliver to our passengers”.

Ends

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Press release from GTR:-

Press Release:
from Govia Thameslink Railway


Govia Thameslink Railway’s (GTR) proposals to settle the conductors’ dispute and avert next week’s five- day long strike were today rejected by RMT.

Talks at Acas have broken down after three days of discussion at which GTR tabled an eight-point compromise plan to settle the dispute and stop the strike action, which will now bring misery to hundreds of thousands of Southern passengers.

GTR offered the following new assurances, which the RMT rejected:

1. Collective bargaining rights for the new OBS role, ensuring that this group will have a voice within the organisation as well as full negotiation rights
2. A joint review of the OBS role after 12 months of operation, to look at role development, training and future career development
3. A guaranteed minimum level of voluntary overtime for all OBSs, the detail of which would be agreed with the RMT
4. A guarantee to retain the OBS role at the levels already guaranteed, beyond 2021, should GTR retain the franchise
5. Southern guarantee 2nd member of staff rostered to those trains that have them today
6. Conductors and OBS to retain safety competence including PTS and evacuation training, including non-dispatch route knowledge
7. Southern and RMT to agree a list of circumstances whereby a train would continue in service without a 2nd member of traincrew on board, in the interests of the customers
8. RMT to accept transfer of door-operation to the driver

This is on top of the commitments GTR has already made to the RMT, which include:

• No compulsory redundancies
• No reduction in salary
• No compulsory location moves
• A guaranteed, above-inflation pay-rise for the next two years
• An increase in the existing ‘shift premia’ (which is additional salary paid to staff for working voluntary overtime) to 20% over the next three years
• A promise to increase the number of back-up staff to help manage unplanned disruption – thereby ensuring the railway is staffed more in the future than it is today

Passenger Service Director Angie Doll said: “We have gone the extra mile with our compromise offer, but the RMT has made it clear they are not prepared to negotiate. They did not want to discuss the role of the On-Board Supervisor and remain rigidly opposed to evolving the role of on- board staff to focus more on customers. We are deeply disappointed and angry on behalf of our passengers at this stance, which will cause misery for our passengers and untold damage to the local economy in the southeast. The RMT’s strike is unnecessary, unacceptable and unjustified.

“We plan to have just as many services staffed with On-Board Supervisors as we do with Conductors today. We simply want the flexibility to be able to run a train without a second member of staff on board, if they are unavailable so we can get our passengers on their way. To provide assurances that we would do this only when absolutely necessary, we said we’d agree with the RMT a list of binding rules to dictate when this could happen – such as during severe disruption. Their refusal to even discuss this demonstrates their complete unwillingness to compromise.

“Our proposals match modern-day customer service to modern-day trains. The only difference is drivers will close the doors, freeing up our on-board staff to provide the best customer service. Our On-Board Supervisors will also be able to work on any service, which means more efficient working and fewer cancellations for our passengers.

“RMT’s plan to cease the dispute should GTR agree to the terms agreed in Scotland recently is a complete red herring. This amounts to a continuation of the current operating model and delivers none of the punctuality and customer service benefits we are determined to deliver to our passengers”.

Ends

Well thats a surprise..NOT. GTR won't back down as like has been mentioned they are the DaFT puppets. Now it will be up to the RMT to get a well worded release out to give their side. This will not bode well for anyone in the Rail Industry in Southern Land.

 

[Domh245]

Reading that, it seems fairly reasonable. I suppose the sticking points are 2 which could be reasonably interpreted as "after 12 months we'll declare that they aren't value for money and get rid of them" and 4 which is reasonably all that GTR can do in terms of guarantees (unless of course my cynical interpretation of 2 comes into effect). I suppose that the RMT are also sticking over point 8 as they seem to have made this whole thing about the doors rather than the safety benefits.

Or have I just caved in to the GTR propaganda?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Now it will be up to the RMT to get a well worded release out to give their side.

Well, I suppose that there is a first time for everything.

 

[speedy_sticks]

Well thats a surprise..NOT. GTR won't back down as like has been mentioned they are the DaFT puppets. Now it will be up to the RMT to get a well worded release out to give their side. This will not bode well for anyone in the Rail Industry in Southern Land.

From a disabled passanger standpoint, nothing new in terms sorting out the discriminationary way that the OBS operates.

I personally would need a guarantee that OBS will do platform duties at every stop or at least every unstaffed platforms and platforms.

This already happens under the guard role, so no excuse for it not to happen now.

Very disappointed.

 

[WatcherZero]

RMT has put out a press release condemning the 'punch up' minister of blocking Govia making a deal, accusing him of being a 'hit man' and saying Govia were 'prevented' from making the same deal as Scotrail. They do still claim the safety critical role of the Guard must be protected despite the apparent acceptance of DOO by the RMT during these negotiations.

 

[cjmillsnun]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...strike-talks-start-with-hopes-of-breakthrough


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Sorry, not biting.
Safety (across the UK) is down to the RSSB and ORR.

Ah yes, the RSSB of which Charles Horton is a director. Funny that.

 

[313103]

Press release from GTR:-

Press Release:
from Govia Thameslink Railway


Govia Thameslink Railway’s (GTR) proposals to settle the conductors’ dispute and avert next week’s five- day long strike were today rejected by RMT.

Talks at Acas have broken down after three days of discussion at which GTR tabled an eight-point compromise plan to settle the dispute and stop the strike action, which will now bring misery to hundreds of thousands of Southern passengers.

GTR offered the following new assurances, which the RMT rejected:

1. Collective bargaining rights for the new OBS role, ensuring that this group will have a voice within the organisation as well as full negotiation rights
2. A joint review of the OBS role after 12 months of operation, to look at role development, training and future career development
3. A guaranteed minimum level of voluntary overtime for all OBSs, the detail of which would be agreed with the RMT
4. A guarantee to retain the OBS role at the levels already guaranteed, beyond 2021, should GTR retain the franchise
5. Southern guarantee 2nd member of staff rostered to those trains that have them today
6. Conductors and OBS to retain safety competence including PTS and evacuation training, including non-dispatch route knowledge
7. Southern and RMT to agree a list of circumstances whereby a train would continue in service without a 2nd member of traincrew on board, in the interests of the customers
8. RMT to accept transfer of door-operation to the driver

This is on top of the commitments GTR has already made to the RMT, which include:

• No compulsory redundancies
• No reduction in salary
• No compulsory location moves
• A guaranteed, above-inflation pay-rise for the next two years
• An increase in the existing ‘shift premia’ (which is additional salary paid to staff for working voluntary overtime) to 20% over the next three years
• A promise to increase the number of back-up staff to help manage unplanned disruption – thereby ensuring the railway is staffed more in the future than it is today

Passenger Service Director Angie Doll said: “We have gone the extra mile with our compromise offer, but the RMT has made it clear they are not prepared to negotiate. They did not want to discuss the role of the On-Board Supervisor and remain rigidly opposed to evolving the role of on- board staff to focus more on customers. We are deeply disappointed and angry on behalf of our passengers at this stance, which will cause misery for our passengers and untold damage to the local economy in the southeast. The RMT’s strike is unnecessary, unacceptable and unjustified.

“We plan to have just as many services staffed with On-Board Supervisors as we do with Conductors today. We simply want the flexibility to be able to run a train without a second member of staff on board, if they are unavailable so we can get our passengers on their way. To provide assurances that we would do this only when absolutely necessary, we said we’d agree with the RMT a list of binding rules to dictate when this could happen – such as during severe disruption. Their refusal to even discuss this demonstrates their complete unwillingness to compromise.

“Our proposals match modern-day customer service to modern-day trains. The only difference is drivers will close the doors, freeing up our on-board staff to provide the best customer service. Our On-Board Supervisors will also be able to work on any service, which means more efficient working and fewer cancellations for our passengers.

“RMT’s plan to cease the dispute should GTR agree to the terms agreed in Scotland recently is a complete red herring. This amounts to a continuation of the current operating model and delivers none of the punctuality and customer service benefits we are determined to deliver to our passengers”.

Ends

Firstly i will go through the numbered points.

1. Would of happened anyway, so not a issue.
2. Offers nothing to Guarantee the role after a year.
3. Overtime is voluntary anyway.
4. What levels have OBS have been agreed with for the company to say they will guarantee that number?
5. OK that seems fine.
6. What the hell is non dispatch route knowledge?
7. Basically what this is saying we will tell you what they are and you have to agree to them.
8. Sounds to me this one is a order rather then going the extra mile on this compromise deal.

Now i will go through the bullet points.

Bullet point 1. OK they were never going to offer compulsory redundancies anyway.
Bullet point 2. Thats ok.
Bullet point 3. Thats ok.
Bullet point 4. Pay increments have nothing to do with the role, its a form of bribery, when its more like robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Bullet point 5. As bullet point 4, money is not the issue.
Bullet point 6. A Promise. All i will say is 'A promise is a comfort to a fool'. Its an empty promise that is not a Guarantee.

I am not going to dissect the comments made by Angie Doll.

 

[infobleep]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...strike-talks-start-with-hopes-of-breakthrough


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Sorry, not biting.
Safety (across the UK) is down to the RSSB and ORR.

It doesn't matter who regulates safety if they regulate the saftey for both companies in the same way. So my question still stands.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[AlterEgo]

Ah yes, the RSSB of which Charles Horton is a director. Funny that.

It probably does smell a bit, but he is only a non-exec (all the non-execs come from within the industry).

And I'm sure he doesn't get to completely steer the RSSB either.

 

[infobleep]

Press release from GTR:-

Press Release:
from Govia Thameslink Railway


Govia Thameslink Railway’s (GTR) proposals to settle the conductors’ dispute and avert next week’s five- day long strike were today rejected by RMT.

Talks at Acas have broken down after three days of discussion at which GTR tabled an eight-point compromise plan to settle the dispute and stop the strike action, which will now bring misery to hundreds of thousands of Southern passengers.

GTR offered the following new assurances, which the RMT rejected:

1. Collective bargaining rights for the new OBS role, ensuring that this group will have a voice within the organisation as well as full negotiation rights
2. A joint review of the OBS role after 12 months of operation, to look at role development, training and future career development
3. A guaranteed minimum level of voluntary overtime for all OBSs, the detail of which would be agreed with the RMT
4. A guarantee to retain the OBS role at the levels already guaranteed, beyond 2021, should GTR retain the franchise
5. Southern guarantee 2nd member of staff rostered to those trains that have them today
6. Conductors and OBS to retain safety competence including PTS and evacuation training, including non-dispatch route knowledge
7. Southern and RMT to agree a list of circumstances whereby a train would continue in service without a 2nd member of traincrew on board, in the interests of the customers
8. RMT to accept transfer of door-operation to the driver

This is on top of the commitments GTR has already made to the RMT, which include:

• No compulsory redundancies
• No reduction in salary
• No compulsory location moves
• A guaranteed, above-inflation pay-rise for the next two years
• An increase in the existing ‘shift premia’ (which is additional salary paid to staff for working voluntary overtime) to 20% over the next three years
• A promise to increase the number of back-up staff to help manage unplanned disruption – thereby ensuring the railway is staffed more in the future than it is today

Passenger Service Director Angie Doll said: “We have gone the extra mile with our compromise offer, but the RMT has made it clear they are not prepared to negotiate. They did not want to discuss the role of the On-Board Supervisor and remain rigidly opposed to evolving the role of on- board staff to focus more on customers. We are deeply disappointed and angry on behalf of our passengers at this stance, which will cause misery for our passengers and untold damage to the local economy in the southeast. The RMT’s strike is unnecessary, unacceptable and unjustified.

“We plan to have just as many services staffed with On-Board Supervisors as we do with Conductors today. We simply want the flexibility to be able to run a train without a second member of staff on board, if they are unavailable so we can get our passengers on their way. To provide assurances that we would do this only when absolutely necessary, we said we’d agree with the RMT a list of binding rules to dictate when this could happen – such as during severe disruption. Their refusal to even discuss this demonstrates their complete unwillingness to compromise.

“Our proposals match modern-day customer service to modern-day trains. The only difference is drivers will close the doors, freeing up our on-board staff to provide the best customer service. Our On-Board Supervisors will also be able to work on any service, which means more efficient working and fewer cancellations for our passengers.

“RMT’s plan to cease the dispute should GTR agree to the terms agreed in Scotland recently is a complete red herring. This amounts to a continuation of the current operating model and delivers none of the punctuality and customer service benefits we are determined to deliver to our passengers”.

Ends

Why didn't Govia table those amendments before?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[313103]

And I'm sure he doesn't get to completely steer the RSSB either.

Ahh yes but how to win friends and influence people though.

 

[infobleep]

So do Southern management think that Scotrail are not going to deliver punctuality and customer service benefits to customers, given they are kind of sticking with what's already there?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[BestWestern]

Every train covered by the agreement will retain a safety critical conductor at all times whilst in passanger service

But if SR insist they want Drivers to dispatch the entire situation is back to square one. That would be DCO, which both unions oppose. Until that devilish little detail is signed off, an agreement is effectively worthless.

 

[AlterEgo]

Ahh yes but how to win friends and influence people though.

Perhaps the RMT might like to try winning friends and influencing people!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So do Southern management think that Scotrail are not going to deliver punctuality and customer service benefits to customers, given they are kind of sticking with what's already there?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Why would Southern care what Scotrail do?

Southern is Southern. They can run their business how they want, as long as it meets RSSB guidelines.

 

[313103]

Perhaps the RMT might like to try winning friends and influencing people!

Well that is the problem, they represent the members they alienate the public and the Management. They carryout instructions of Management, they alienate the members. A no win situation.

They have loads of friends until they take any form of industrial action, then when they take action they alienate those friends.

 

[74A]

But if SR insist they want Drivers to dispatch the entire situation is back to square one. That would be DCO, which both unions oppose. Until that devilish little detail is signed off, an agreement is effectively worthless.

isn't scotrail the same ?

 

[infobleep]

Perhaps the RMT might like to try winning friends and influencing people!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Why would Southern care what Scotrail do?

Southern is Southern. They can run their business how they want, as long as it meets RSSB guidelines.

Well their press release mentioned Scotland. Perhaps I wouldn't have mentioned it, if they hadn't made reference to Scotland in their presence release.

They seemed to think it worth while to mention Scotland in their press release so I thought it worth while to ask my question.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[DarloRich]

Interestingly Radio 5 have just indicated that the dispute between GTR & RMT is over "drivers operating trains on their own".

 

[AlterEgo]

Well their press release mentioned Scotland. Perhaps I wouldn't have mentioned it, if they hadn't made reference to Scotland in their presence release.

They seemed to think it worth while to mention Scotland in their press release so I thought it worth while to ask my question.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

GTR's press release explicitly stated that RMT's agreement in Scotland was a red herring. Which it is. This is a separate dispute and it's important not to conflate the two.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

And what is the future for the OBS should GTR not retain the franchise beyond 2021? Will their roles or career progression be guaranteed by the replacement franchisee?

 

[ComUtoR]

Of course they do, if as seems increasingly likely the 2 main rail unions are up for a prolonged and major fight with the government then fine, but ultimately expect either major changes to how the industry is run or a change in the law regarding strike action in essential services like railways

Please don't quote me out of context. You posted about Driver jobs and University education. The Government do not need to step in over that whatsoever. Why would they need to ?

So your solution would be to make strikes illegal ? Change the law to force workers out on their ear ?

A shut up and do what your told attitude is exactly how we came to this situation.

FYI if they change the rules on how Drivers were recruited and trained so that you can have a "university educated" Driver. I'd NEVER travel on a train again.

 

[AlterEgo]

And what is the future for the OBS should GTR not retain the franchise beyond 2021? Will their roles or career progression be guaranteed by the replacement franchisee?

No. It's not in the gift of GTR to do that.

 

[ComUtoR]

And what is the future for the OBS should GTR not retain the franchise beyond 2021? Will their roles or career progression be guaranteed by the replacement franchisee?

The DfT were asked at the Select Committee if that could be guaranteed and they basically said errrrrm No. For the people who really think the Government will step in to resolve this I only have 3 words. HA HA HA.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Yeh it was a bit of a tongue in cheek question so in reality, the OBS role could only last 5 years at most (under GTR).

 

[ComUtoR]

Yeh it was a bit of a tongue in cheek question so in reality, the OBS role could only last 5 years at most (under GTR).

I watched all 3 hearings. They asked the RMT if a guarantee that the role would be long term beyond the franchise could end the dispute. They said yes.

They asked GTR if that could be provided. They said they couldn't

They asked the DfT if they would help and maybe work it in to the next franchise and offer the guarantee. They said no.

There truly is no agreement to be had here. That cute little letter from GTR still basically says that the RMT must agree to the role and must agree to relinquish the Doors . There is no compromise whatsoever.

 

[Fincra5]

I watched all 3 hearings. They asked the RMT if a guarantee that the role would be long term beyond the franchise could end the dispute. They said yes.

They asked GTR if that could be provided. They said they couldn't

They asked the DfT if they would help and maybe work it in to the next franchise and offer the guarantee. They said no.

There truly is no agreement to be had here. That cute little letter from GTR still basically says that the RMT must agree to the role and must agree to relinquish the Doors . There is no compromise whatsoever.

Yes I get the feeling that GTR/DfT aren't in the game to compromise.. but the press releases to the travelling public are we've done everything we can. :roll:

 

[WatcherZero]

Todays talks have broken down simply over that commitment which it isn't in the companies power to grant.

They have guaranteed the jobs during this franchise and the following franchise if they win it. The union wants a guarantee over the jobs in the following franchise whoever wins it.

 

[Domh245]

They have guaranteed the jobs during this franchise

Source? In that letter they don't once mention a guarantee to the end of the Franchise. It may be implied, but I don't see it written down!