Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[tsr]

Are you telling me that route knowledge training includes knowing the timetable for every day of the week?

No, it includes knowing which movements which are possible on each line, and expecting to deal with them at any time - both to carry them out for your service (as and when permissible), and to prevent them occurring in an emergency. Rather more important!

 

[craigybagel]

The response to this should be interesting.

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-offers-to-suspend-southern-strike/

RMT offers to suspend Southern strike if company matches ScotRail offer on guards and safety
Rail union RMT confirmed this morning that it is taking a new offer into the ACAS talks with Southern today – the union will suspend next week’s action if the company meet Scotrail’s offer this week that gives guarantees on the jobs and safety-critical role of the guards now and in the future.
The Scotrail offer represented significant progress that enabled RMT to suspend all industrial action in that dispute. There will now be full and detailed discussions with Scotrail and ASLEF on the whole issue of train despatch.
In a letter to Southern Chief Executive Charles Horton sent this morning, RMT General Sectary Mick Cash says:
“Role of the Guard and Extension of DOO – Southern (GTR)

I am writing in response to your open letter to your customers and other publicity issued to your customers during the ACAS talks.

We have had intensive talks under the auspices of ACAS over the past two days and I am hoping that you will be able to authorise your team, at the reconvened talks today, to accept the following. Should you do so then my Union will suspend the strikes called for next week. This would, obviously be welcomed by your customers and my members.

The offer this union is making to Southern is as agreed with Abellio Scotrail this week, an agreement that enabled us to suspend our industrial action.

So there can be no doubt I will set down the 4 key elements of Scotrail’s offer that was agreed.

1. Scotrail guaranteed a Conductor on every train.

2. Scotrail guaranteed that the Conductor will retain their full competency (rules, track safety, evacuation).

3. ScotRail confirmed that trains operating these services will not run without a competent Conductor on board.

4. These proposals, including the above guarantees, are subject to ScotRail and the RMT entering into discussion about, and agreeing to, a method of train dispatch for these services. Once this proposal and the method of dispatch are agreed it will be adopted for the Abellio ScotRail franchise and will apply beyond.

This is a sensible way forward and would enable us, like I said, to suspend the industrial action. We would speedily meet to discuss and agree train despatch, something we are doing with Scotrail.

I feel that this is a positive way forward that will bring an end to this dispute and enable Southern to start running a full service again. I will keep my National Executive Committee on stand-by today so that should you accept the above then a decision can be taken to, hopefully, suspend all industrial action.

I await your urgent response.”

 

[DarloRich]

the answer will be no

 

[Carlisle]

The Government doesn't need to do bugger all..

Of course they do, if as seems increasingly likely the 2 main rail unions are up for a prolonged and major fight with the government then fine, but ultimately expect either major changes to how the industry is run or a change in the law regarding strike action in essential services like railways

 

[infobleep]

So what those who think DOO is fine, what do you think of what Scotrail have agreed? Do you think they were wrong to agree that?

Open letter from Charles Horton

https://twitter.com/SouthernRailUK/status/761460538576609280?s=09

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[Harbon 1]

Southern are in too deep to be seen to back out IMO.

 

[infobleep]

Southern are in too deep to be seen to back out IMO.

So are Scotrail wrong for not being in deep enough?

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[Dave1987]

Of course they do, if as seems increasingly likely the 2 main rail unions are up for a prolonged and major fight with the government then fine, but ultimately expect either major changes to how the industry is run or a change in the law regarding strike action in essential services like railways

How dare a union stand up for the members it represents? I'm sure the government believes unions should just roll over and accept anything management and government dish out. For a government that's supposed to represent 'working people', attempting to destroy the unions that protect those working people just shows how much rubbish this government is dishing out. I have no doubt the government will move the goalposts so they can nullify the railway unions as much as they can because they absolutely detest how much influence ASLEF and the RMT have.

 

[Harbon 1]

So are Scotrail wrong for not being in deep enough?

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Well I've only been keeping up with the Southern debate because it's mentioned more on the news etc. Did Scotrail say no to any negotiations?

Anyway like I said: IMO.

 

[craigybagel]

the answer will be no

Oh absolutely , but it'll be interesting to see how they justify it. Hopefully RMT can use their rejection as a PR coup, although I'm not getting my hopes up.....

 

[DarloRich]

Oh absolutely , but it'll be interesting to see how they justify it. Hopefully RMT can use their rejection as a PR coup, although I'm not getting my hopes up.....

RMT ( and others) really do need to get equipped to fight the PR battle and undertake message management - they are extremely lacking in this regard.

 

[AlterEgo]

So what those who think DOO is fine, what do you think of what Scotrail have agreed? Do you think they were wrong to agree that?

Open letter from Charles Horton

https://twitter.com/SouthernRailUK/status/761460538576609280?s=09

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

Well, what we know is that the Scotrail franchise is largely overseen by the Scottish government, and the GTR one by Westminster.

The two disputes aren't one and the same and aren't taking place in the same conditions.

 

[ainsworth74]

Can GTR even give the RMT what they want? The statement 'and will apply beyond' is the issue. If that means beyond the current franchise GTR cannot give that guarantee as it is not within their power to give it.

GTR could well say 'we'll agree to all of that for the life of the franchise' but that may not be enough for the RMT in which case we need the DfT as well.

 

[Starmill]

Does the Union's offer require a commitment to supply a guard for all GTR services? Or just all 'Southern' services? Quite the recruitment programme even if it's just for Southern Metro. What about Gatwick Express? I can't even begin to imagine how many guards would be needed to cover Thameslink and Great Northern.


Or do they just mean guard on all trains that currently need one?

 

[Carlisle]

Does the Union's offer require a commitment to supply a guard for all GTR services? Or just all 'Southern' services? Quite the recruitment programme even if it's just for Southern Metro. What about Gatwick Express? I can't even begin to imagine how many guards would be needed to cover Thameslink and Great Northern.


Or do they just mean guard on all trains that currently need one?

I'd be pretty certain they only mean current Southern non DOO routes

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So are Scotrail wrong for not being in deep enough?

It depends what contract they have with Transport Scotland, and what attitude TS take to the changes.
If it doesn't hit Abellio's finances, then fine.
GTR has a different contract with the DfT.

 

[infobleep]

It depends what contract they have with Transport Scotland, and what attitude TS take to the changes.
If it doesn't hit Abellio's finances, then fine.
GTR has a different contract with the DfT.

So if they have a different contract with Transport for Scotland, did Transport for Scotland create the wrong contract?

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[Carlisle]

Well, what we know is that the Scotrail franchise is largely overseen by the Scottish government, and the GTR one by Westminster.

The two disputes aren't one and the same and aren't taking place in the same conditions.

It won't possibly be anything whatsoever to do with an opportunity grasped by the SNP administration to show the wicked Westminster in a rather bad light

 

[JonathanH]

I'd be pretty certain they only mean current Southern non DOO routes

And that is the paradox, they would be better off suggesting that that a specified level of on-board staff are spread across all services.

What happens when a Southern route becomes a Thameslink route? - eg London Bridge to Horsham, London Bridge to East Grinstead

Of the five off-peak Southern (fast) groups of services from London Victoria to East Croydon, the xx20 Brighton runs DOO throughout, the xx09 Reigate / Tonbridge runs DOO to East Croydon, the xx06 Arun Valley, xx17 Coastway and xx23 East Grinstead trains run with a guard.

From London Bridge the Tattenham Corner runs DOO, the Brighton Thameslink train runs DOO and the Horsham needs a guard.

There isn't any logic to it other than what services most recently had slam door stock. It would appear that the Reigate / Tonbridge service can run DOO north of East Croydon simply because the destination of these services was switched from Tattenham Corner in the mid-2000s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So if they have a different contract with Transport for Scotland, did Transport for Scotland create the wrong contract?

It will be all down to what Abellio put in its bid and what TS contracted with them.
DfT's contract with GTR will be different, and is in any case a management contract, not a full franchise.
At the end of the day it is reflected in the subsidy/premium for the franchise.
The details of both contracts will be private (redacted in the public version).

It will be similar with Merseyrail's new stock, which owner Merseytravel has already said will be DOO.
That will be another different contract (ie not made with DfT).

 

[HH]

Is this just a Southern thing? Can anybody confirm? Sure as heck doesn't work like that in my TOC...

The piece I saw suggested that this was an initiative by Southern, so I presume it wasn't in place elsewhere. This was last year and it sounded like it was fairly new at that time. I can't reveal the source, but I have very good reason to think it was accurate.

 

[Robertj21a]

The text of that RMT letter seems too vague, quite easy for Southern to just refute it.

After all this time, I can't see that Southern will be more than just amused with '........proposals, subject to entering into discussion and agreeing to a method of train despatch......'

Seems a bit naive of RMT, or just an attempt to win a few points.

 

[BestWestern]

The fleeting line about 'once the method of dispatch has been agreed' in that letter is potentially rather important. That is sort of the whole point of the issue here, and by the sounds of things it hasn't been sorted out. Makes me wonder what exactly the RMT think they've won?!

 

[Carlisle]

Makes me wonder what exactly the RMT think they've won?!

Every train covered by the agreement will retain a safety critical conductor at all times whilst in passanger service

 

[infobleep]

It will be all down to what Abellio put in its bid and what TS contracted with them.
DfT's contract with GTR will be different, and is in any case a management contract, not a full franchise.
At the end of the day it is reflected in the subsidy/premium for the franchise.
The details of both contracts will be private (redacted in the public version).

It will be similar with Merseyrail's new stock, which owner Merseytravel has already said will be DOO.
That will be another different contract (ie not made with DfT).

Well then did they make the wrong bid and TS accept the wrong bid?

I'm trying to understand why something is good for Scotland but not good for part of the south east when the reason people say it's not good is safety and I'd have though safety needs to be broadly the same across the union.

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[Robertj21a]

Well then did they make the wrong bid and TS accept the wrong bid?

I'm trying to understand why something is good for Scotland but not good for part of the south east when the reason people say it's not good is safety and I'd have though safety needs to be broadly the same across the union.

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Surely, that's been the same ever since DOO started - decades ago.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm trying to understand why something is good for Scotland but not good for part of the south east when the reason people say it's not good is safety and I'd have though safety needs to be broadly the same across the union.

Devolution, and budgets.
DfT/Treasury want more money from the (English) franchises to keep the investment cycle going (new/more trains etc).
I don't know what the SNP position is for Scotland, but somebody has to pay for the 385s and HST conversions.

 

[HH]

SNP has consistently looked to use ScotRail to create jobs. You cannot draw any comparison to what is happening in rUK.

 

[infobleep]

Devolution, and budgets.
DfT/Treasury want more money from the (English) franchises to keep the investment cycle going (new/more trains etc).
I don't know what the SNP position is for Scotland, but somebody has to pay for the 385s and HST conversions.

SNP has consistently looked to use ScotRail to create jobs. You cannot draw any comparison to what is happening in rUK.

So if they diverge, will travel on Scottish and English Railways, if travelling on Scotrail, be safer?

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[Altnabreac]

Well then did they make the wrong bid and TS accept the wrong bid?

I'm trying to understand why something is good for Scotland but not good for part of the south east when the reason people say it's not good is safety and I'd have though safety needs to be broadly the same across the union.

Remember Scotrail were already planning to keep the main electrified route (E-G via Falkirk) operated with Conductors on board. The other routes were planned to have a TE rostered on every service and all existing Conductors would keep their T&Cs.

So what Scotrail are "losing" is the flexibility to run services when second staff member ill/unavailable and the ongoing salary differential (only for new entrants) between Guards and TEs on Stirling and Shotts services.

They gain better industrial relations, easier rollout of future electrification and perhaps future leverage over the RMT if Guards are no longer involved in despatch but mrely on trains by local agreement.

That is quite a different cost/benefit ratio than Southern have and also likely reflects the political priorities of funders.