New Tube for London

[WatcherZero]

Bombardier-Hitachi have announced a joint bid for the rolling stock contract with stock building duties shared between Derby and Newton Aycliffe.
The contract with a deadline for bids of September 26th calls for 250 trainsets/1700 carriages like for like replacement with options for up to 3000 carriages.
Companies refused to comment on what each would contribute to the design but hinted that it would be a Hitachi traction package.

UK: Bombardier Transportation and Hitachi Rail Europe have formed a joint venture to bid to supply rolling stock under London Underground’s New Tube for London programme. Bids are due to be submitted on September 26.

Both companies prequalified for the contract, along with Alstom, CAF and Siemens.

The basic requirement is for 250 trainsets, which on a like-for-like replacement basis equates to around 1 700 cars. However, bidders see the potential for up to 3 000 cars with provision for growth. According to Hitachi, assembly work would be shared between the companies’ plants at Derby and Newton Aycliffe.

Key issues will be the choice of the common bodyshell, bogies and traction package. Both companies declined to comment on these commercial details, but the reliability of the Hitachi traction packages which replaced the original equipment on part of the Southeastern Class 465 fleet has been noted by interested parties.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...t-venture-to-bid-for-new-tube-for-london.html

 

[swt_passenger]

That's going to annoy the prophets of doom predicting Newton Aycliffe becoming a ghost town with various Hitachi orders going to Italy...

 

[Domh245]

I suppose that this would give them an advantage in terms of production rate, being able to split it across the 2 factories?

 

[J-2739]

This is great! Two multinational train building companies with factories and assembly plants on British soil is surely a winner already! It would help with a quicker transfer process.
I find a further order of 3,000 cars a little excessive. Are they planning 48tph frequencies

 

[jon0844]

Can we get Hitachi to build everything mechanical and let Bombardier produce the safety stickers and possibly the odd bin?

 

[WatcherZero]

This is great! Two multinational train building companies with factories and assembly plants on British soil is surely a winner already! It would help with a quicker transfer process.
I find a further order of 3,000 cars a little excessive. Are they planning 48tph frequencies

I don't think its a further 3,000 but up to 3,000 total so 1,300 options.

 

[theageofthetra]

Can we get Hitachi to build everything mechanical and let Bombardier produce the safety stickers and possibly the odd bin?

Isn't there a risk the bins and stickers will fall off after 6 months?

 

[Nippy]

What about a few for the Isle of Wight? That would be nice for them over there!

 

[tranzitjim]

So how many of the current deep tube lines would get these trains?

I am not familiar on how many trains currently operate on which.

On the other issue.....

1,700 carriages across 250 train sets equals 6.8 cars per set. I guess some trains will be 6 cars and others will be 7 cars? or, we will get them all at 6 cars, with some spare carriages just as spares?

250 x 6 = 1500
250 x 7 = 1750

 

[Domh245]

So how many of the current deep tube lines would get these trains?

I am not familiar on how many trains currently operate on which.

On the other issue.....

1,700 carriages across 250 train sets equals 6.8 cars per set. I guess some trains will be 6 cars and others will be 7 cars? or, we will get them all at 6 cars, with some spare carriages just as spares?

250 x 6 = 1500
250 x 7 = 1750

Central, W&C, Bakerloo, and Piccadilly will be receiving the trains. They'll be a mix of lengths, 8 cars on the Central down to 4 on the W&C.

 

[swt_passenger]

Once all those above lines have been done they'll be starting to look at Northern and Jubilee replacement without being in 'panic mode', that might explain some of the potential numbers for further options.

I found these dates in a TfL paper from 2014, there may be more recent info though:
Piccadilly 2025
Bakerloo 2027
Central 2032
W&C 2032

At which time 95 stock is getting towards 40 years old, and replacements could take around 4 to 5 years to build, so about 2037 to 2040 for the two fleets? This is a bit of a long term build programme for the manufacturers, giving some guarantees of work over a long period.

 

[MatthewRead]

The sooner these are on the Piccadilly line the better because we can then get a daily service form Turnham Green and not just the early morning/late evening service that we currently have.

 

[LLivery]

The sooner these are on the Piccadilly line the better because we can then get a daily service form Turnham Green and not just the early morning/late evening service that we currently have.

Since when was that dependent on the stock?

 

[Domh245]

Once all those above lines have been done they'll be starting to look at Northern and Jubilee replacement without being in 'panic mode', that might explain some of the potential numbers for further options.

I found these dates in a TfL paper from 2014, there may be more recent info though:
Piccadilly 2025
Bakerloo 2027
Central 2032
W&C 2032

At which time 95 stock is getting towards 40 years old, and replacements could take around 4 to 5 years to build, so about 2037 to 2040 for the two fleets? This is a bit of a long term build programme for the manufacturers, giving some guarantees of work over a long period.

Last I'd heard, they were still looking at ordering some 95/96TS clones to allow for more services on the Jubilee, as well as the Battersea Extension. Perhaps they'll drop that in favour of more NT4Ls

 

[cav1975]

What about a few for the Isle of Wight? That would be nice for them over there!

Great idea. 6 vehicles would just be a rounding error in the total project cost

 

[Domh245]

Great idea. 6 vehicles would just be a rounding error in the total project cost

And something that the IOW still wouldn't be able to afford?

 

[CP165]

Perhaps they'll drop that in favour of more NT4Ls

That won't happen, the trains are needed fairly quickly, before the first NTFL train even enters service. They also need to be similar to the existing Northern and Jubilee line trains for compatibility, especially on the Jubilee with the Platform Edge Doors in the new section.

The additional trains for Northern and Jubilee line is being run as a separate procurement and there is currently two manufacturers in the running.

 

[Blamethrower]

so what is the cooling principle that these new trains will use?

 

[J-2739]

so what is the cooling principle that these new trains will use?

I suppose it would use air cooling, rather than air conditioning, due to the deep bore nature of those lines

 

[Chris125]

Great idea. 6 vehicles would just be a rounding error in the total project cost

IIRC this is likely to be a fixed-length articulated design with air cooling, it would surely require a major redesign to become a 3rd rail design maintainable with the limited and space-constrained facilities at Ryde St Johns. The economics are far more likely to favour adapting the stock these trains displace.

 

[swt_passenger]

That won't happen, the trains are needed fairly quickly, before the first NTFL train even enters service. They also need to be similar to the existing Northern and Jubilee line trains for compatibility, especially on the Jubilee with the Platform Edge Doors in the new section.

The additional trains for Northern and Jubilee line is being run as a separate procurement and there is currently two manufacturers in the running.

I read something about this a few months ago, and they basically accept that the extra units for Northern and Jubilee will only have an in-service life of about half that of the existing fleet.

This was the position in February this year, and as you say they were quite explicit that they had to be 95 stock clones:

Additional trains need to run alongside the existing 95/96 Tube Stock on the Jubilee and Northern lines
New Tube for London style trains discounted:
– Would not meet the Programme Requirements of the parent projects
– Would not align with Jubilee Line Platform Edge Doors
– Design costs and lead times would impact business case
Numerous options for cascading existing fleets between lines were considered but dismissed due to weak business cases

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/rup-20160...rthern-lines-additional-train-procurement.pdf

The June Modern Railways explains in an article about this that there is a fall back position< (if finance is not forthcoming), of only ordering the 10 trains for the Jubilee, and deferring any major Northern Line upgrades, as the Battersea extension can be covered by the existing fleet.

 

[MatthewRead]

Since when was that dependent on the stock?

LU have made it clear that they will only introduce a daily service from Turnham Green once they get new trains on the Piccadilly line!

 

[Mojo]

LU have made it clear that they will only introduce a daily service from Turnham Green once they get new trains on the Piccadilly line!

It is once the new signalling is functioning, not just new trains!

 

[MatthewRead]

It is once the new signalling is functioning, not just new trains!

Oh yes I forgot to mention that to, it's not happening for years though so sorry residents of Chiswick: sad:

 

[LLivery]

LU have made it clear that they will only introduce a daily service from Turnham Green once they get new trains on the Piccadilly line!

Oh right, I must of completely missed that.

 

[BestWestern]

I read something about this a few months ago, and they basically accept that the extra units for Northern and Jubilee will only have an in-service life of about half that of the existing fleet.

They could well be an option of non-antique future stock for Island Line, then? If that could be factored in from the order date, it might help massage the figures to make their procurement seem more financially appealing. Though it doesn't sound like justifying them is a particular issue anyhow.

 

[NSE]

Isn't there a risk the bins and stickers will fall off after 6 months?

As much as I love the finished Bombardier Products, and I'm loving the fact more and more Electrostars are heading towards Cambridge, I get this point completely. I was really happy to be able to use 379's over the 317's, but even I had to laugh when the door buttons kept pinging off!

 

[317 forever]

Once all those above lines have been done they'll be starting to look at Northern and Jubilee replacement without being in 'panic mode', that might explain some of the potential numbers for further options.

I found these dates in a TfL paper from 2014, there may be more recent info though:
Piccadilly 2025
Bakerloo 2027
Central 2032
W&C 2032

At which time 95 stock is getting towards 40 years old, and replacements could take around 4 to 5 years to build, so about 2037 to 2040 for the two fleets? This is a bit of a long term build programme for the manufacturers, giving some guarantees of work over a long period.

With all these 4 lines to get NTfLs, all sub-surface lines having recently gained S class, and evidently a medium-term plan to replace Jubilee & Northern line stock with 1 build, we could eventually have just 4 types of Underground train, the other being 2009 stock on the Victoria Line. This might represent the highest ever standardisation of stock. I am excluding Overground & CrossRail/ Elizabeth line stock as these are part of National Rail.

 

[Mikey C]

I read something about this a few months ago, and they basically accept that the extra units for Northern and Jubilee will only have an in-service life of about half that of the existing fleet.

This was the position in February this year, and as you say they were quite explicit that they had to be 95 stock clones:



The June Modern Railways explains in an article about this that there is a fall back position< (if finance is not forthcoming), of only ordering the 10 trains for the Jubilee, and deferring any major Northern Line upgrades, as the Battersea extension can be covered by the existing fleet.

I think it fairly unlikely the Northern Line wouldn't get additional stock, especially as HS2 (presuming it is built on schedule) will be open well before any CR2 can relieve the Northern Line at Euston

It will be interesting what replaces the 95/96 stock, as the NTfL design will be pretty old by then. Similarly the eventual replacement for the 2009 stock on the Victoria Line, which is slightly fatter than the other Tube trains.

 

[BuryBlue]

I think it fairly unlikely the Northern Line wouldn't get additional stock, especially as HS2 (presuming it is built on schedule) will be open well before any CR2 can relieve the Northern Line at Euston

It will be interesting what replaces the 95/96 stock, as the NTfL design will be pretty old by then. Similarly the eventual replacement for the 2009 stock on the Victoria Line, which is slightly fatter than the other Tube trains.

I'd think that the replacement for the 95/6 stock will not be NTfL based, but rather a more conventional 6/7 car design + gangways on account of the Jubilee line's existing PEDs. That is, of course, if LU desire for the Northern line's stock to be identical to the Jubilee's. If not, I'd think it will probably be a retractioned NTfL based set, considering Underground train design has changed very little since 1938.