Is it "Sugar Loaf" or "Sugar Loaf Halt"?

[krus_aragon]

A further word on Porthmadog / Portmadoc:

The name originates from the local landowner, William Alexander Madocks, who developed the nearby town of Tremadoc / Tremadog (Madocks' Town) as well as Portmadoc / Porthmadog (Madocks' Port). The initial spelling of 'Madoc' rather than 'Madocks' may have been "common ground" between English and Welsh interpretations on the name, or may have been influenced by the Welsh legend of Madoc/Madog, who sailed away in 1170 and discovered America (also used by Queen Elizabeth as a basis for territorial claims in the New World).

William Madocks was a strong supporter of building a railway route to Ireland via a port at Porthdinllaen on the Lleyn Peninsula. His advocated route would come via mid-Wales and cross the cob he built at Porthmadog. A good title on the subject (but in Welsh only, to my knowledge) is 'Porthdinllaen: Cynllun Madocks' (Madocks' Plan), by Mai Roberts, 2007.

 

[Calthrop]

Bin-ee-ya!

Not much of a difference, I grant you, but the y in Welsh is most pronounced as an English u eg yn is said as un.

Thanks ! (in the admittedly unlikely event of my ever needing to say said name out loud)...

 

[PHILIPE]

Whatever the purists may tell you there are dialect variants. I always cringe when I hear a radio announcer say bl-eye-nav-on for Blaenafon / Blaenavon instead of the local blen-av-on.

There are continuing debates about the orthography of place names in the Eastern Valley but that is another topic.

There is a place near to "Bly-na-von" called Varteg, an Anglicised name. Only a couple of years ago it was thought that it should be written in Welsh and become "Y Farteg". An F in Welsh is pronounced as a "v", the letter "v" not existing. The locals were up in arms.

 

[Calthrop]

Ad the rough soldiery in Henry V might have put it: "I vart on your 'Farteg' ".

 

[D1009]

Didn't Flint become Fflint for a few years, then reverted to Flint, with a Welsh translation Y Fflint.

 

[PHILIPE]

Another place, Sully in the Vale of Glamorgan (had a station before Beeching, the present line extending beyond Penarth and joining up to the Barry Rote at Cadoxton), but the Welsh Language Boards decided that the Welsh spelling should be used thus signs going bi-lingual. The Welsh word is "Sili". No prizes for guessing the pronunciation. Again, the locals up in arms.

 

[The Quincunx]

Back to the OP, in the Station Access Annexes, which can be found on the Office of Rail and Road's public register, the station name as shown in Annex 1, paragraph 6 as "Sugarloaf Halt" and its address is "Sugarloaf Mountain, Near Cynghordy" in the county of Dyfed (the document is from 1995). So that is the station's identity for the purposes of the contractual relationship between NR and ATW. Interestingly, the station plan (Appendix 2 to Annexe 1) is headed "SUGAR LOAF HALT" but I don't think that has any legal force.

 

[krus_aragon]

An alternative (and rather lighthearted) suggestion: as the station is a request stop, why not call it Sugar Loaf Halt if the train calls, and just Sugar Loaf if it doesn't? :P

 

[swt class 450]

Indeed, and Southern have just installed a few signs such that both versions are now displayed at the station!

Yes it is very confusing whether it is "Box Hill & Westhumble" or "Boxhill & Westhumble" It seems though that the official name is "Box Hill & Westhumble" but as you say both versions are now displayed at the station. It seems like lots of people are confused. The local bus company on the 516 (Buses Excetera) spell it as "Boxhill" but the previous operators Countryliner and Sunray spelt it as "Box Hill" It seems like National Trust spell it as Box Hill" but at the top of "Box Hill" there are signs with both "Box Hill" and Boxhill". So who knows what is correct.

Back to the OP, in the Station Access Annexes, which can be found on the Office of Rail and Road's public register, the station name as shown in Annex 1, paragraph 6 as "Sugarloaf Halt" and its address is "Sugarloaf Mountain, Near Cynghordy" in the county of Dyfed (the document is from 1995). So that is the station's identity for the purposes of the contractual relationship between NR and ATW. Interestingly, the station plan (Appendix 2 to Annexe 1) is headed "SUGAR LOAF HALT" but I don't think that has any legal force.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. So is Sugar Loaf named after a mountain than? I have always wondered where it got its name from. It also amazes me that Sugar Loaf has a full CIS screen (see attached photo). Does anyone know if it has announcements as well?

An alternative (and rather lighthearted) suggestion: as the station is a request stop, why not call it Sugar Loaf Halt if the train calls, and just Sugar Loaf if it doesn't? :P

True. But then "Halt" doesnt necessarily mean request stop?

 

[craigybagel]

You are correct. There are idiosyncracies, another of which is Bynea, which, by rights, should be pronounced 'bun-ee-ya' but isn't, except on ATW's announcements!.

As a guard on the Heart of Wales line, I take great pleasure in announcing all of the stations prior to departure from Crewe/Shrewsbury. My pronunciations are based on a phonetic crib sheet given to English based traincrew on the route, and the digital announcements at Shrewsbury. I shall bare in mind now the fact that Bynea is not quite correct, I hadn't realised!

Incidentally, in common with other guards on the northern end of the line, I only sign as far as Llanwrtyd, the stop before Sugar Loaf. In 3 years on the line, I've only ever had to inform the Carmarthen guard relieving me at Llanwrtyd or Llandrindod about a request for Sugar Loaf once, and even then he was very taken aback!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As a guard on the Heart of Wales line, I take great pleasure in announcing all of the stations prior to departure from Crewe/Shrewsbury. My pronunciations are based on a phonetic crib sheet given to English based traincrew on the route, and the digital announcements at Shrewsbury. I shall bare in mind now the fact that Bynea is not quite correct, I hadn't realised!

Incidentally, in common with other guards on the northern end of the line, I only sign as far as Llanwrtyd, the stop before Sugar Loaf. In 3 years on the line, I've only ever had to inform the Carmarthen guard relieving me at Llanwrtyd or Llandrindod about a request for Sugar Loaf once, and even then he was very taken aback!

Well done - am sure that is much appreciated ....

Shame the old LMS line to Brynamman East is no longer here - with its tongue twisting Cwmmlynfell , Cwmtwrch and Ystalyfera ....closed 1950 ..

That would hypothetically have challenged anyone making announcements at say Cardiff Central.

 

[PHILIPE]

Back to the OP, in the Station Access Annexes, which can be found on the Office of Rail and Road's public register, the station name as shown in Annex 1, paragraph 6 as "Sugarloaf Halt" and its address is "Sugarloaf Mountain, Near Cynghordy" in the county of Dyfed (the document is from 1995). So that is the station's identity for the purposes of the contractual relationship between NR and ATW. Interestingly, the station plan (Appendix 2 to Annexe 1) is headed "SUGAR LOAF HALT" but I don't think that has any legal force.

Where would the postman leave mail if that was the address ?

 

[Llanigraham]

Interesting. Thanks for the info. So is Sugar Loaf named after a mountain than? I have always wondered where it got its name from. It also amazes me that Sugar Loaf has a full CIS screen (see attached photo). Does anyone know if it has announcements as well?

Sugar Loaf Halt is indeed named after the near-by "mountain" (actually a hill).

 

[crehld]

You are correct. There are idiosyncracies, another of which is Bynea, which, by rights, should be pronounced 'bun-ee-ya' but isn't, except on ATW's announcements!

Thanks ! (in the admittedly unlikely event of my ever needing to say said name out loud)...

Yes - I gave an ATW guard a good laugh last week asking to get off at "By-neee"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sugar Loaf Halt is indeed named after the near-by "mountain" (actually a hill).

So, not the one in Settle, Yorkshire... or Rio de Janeiro then
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As a guard on the Heart of Wales line, I take great pleasure in announcing all of the stations prior to departure from Crewe/Shrewsbury. My pronunciations are based on a phonetic crib sheet given to English based traincrew on the route, and the digital announcements at Shrewsbury. I shall bare in mind now the fact that Bynea is not quite correct, I hadn't realised!

At Crewe the station announcer usually gets as far as Knighton and then gives up simply saying "and other stations along the Heart of Wales Line".

 

[krus_aragon]

True. But then "Halt" doesnt necessarily mean request stop?

Indeed, but the thrust of my limited wit was to call it a halt if the train halts there.

 

[transmanche]

What is/was the actual distinction between a 'station' and a 'halt' anyway? I've always assumed that a halt was unstaffed and didn't have any buildings (other than perhaps a basic shelter), whilst a station had a proper building, ticket office and staff.

By that definition, I guess many stations are in fact just halts nowadays...

 

[Llanigraham]

So, not the one in Settle, Yorkshire... or Rio de Janeiro then

Nor the one between Abergavenny and Crickhowell.

 

[greaterwest]

At Crewe the station announcer usually gets as far as Knighton and then gives up simply saying "and other stations along the Heart of Wales Line".

I wonder how Crewe's automatic system would cope (same system as seen at London Victoria/East Croydon/Gatwick Airport/Brighton, IIRC) if they ever used it, as it's the only non-ATW station to see a HoW train.

 

[crehld]

I wonder how Crewe's automatic system would cope (same system as seen at London Victoria/East Croydon/Gatwick Airport/Brighton, IIRC) if they ever used it, as it's the only non-ATW station to see a HoW train.

Don't know. Announcements at Crewe still done by a real human being... Who sounds like Ed Miliband.

 

[najaB]

Announcements at Crewe still done by a real human being... Who sounds like Ed Miliband.

I was wondering what he's doing these days.

 

[Greenback]

It's nice to know Ed's found himself a job.

 

[Adlington]

Back to Sugar Loaf (Halt, or no Halt....).
According to Arriva, Sugar Loaf Halt is Wales' quietest station: 150 passengers per year.
Source (BBC)

 

[cf111]

Not quite what you're asking for, but quite a few departure screens (on the ECML at least) display Newcastle Central, whilst the tickets and station signs merely say Newcastle.

Similarly on platform screens and tickets Edinburgh Waverley is just "Edinburgh" but on Scotrail's on-board CIS the screens and the auto-announcer both say "Edinburgh Waverley".

 

[Techniquest]

Wasn't that in part down to the thankfully short-lived period when Haymarket was referred to as (especially on long-distance services from England) Edinburgh Haymarket? Thank Goodness that ended as it was confusing!

As for Sugar Loaf, I'm 99% certain Sugar Loaf had announcements when I did it some months back.

 

[craigybagel]

As a guard on the Heart of Wales line, I take great pleasure in announcing all of the stations prior to departure from Crewe/Shrewsbury. My pronunciations are based on a phonetic crib sheet given to English based traincrew on the route, and the digital announcements at Shrewsbury. I shall bare in mind now the fact that Bynea is not quite correct, I hadn't realised!

Incidentally, in common with other guards on the northern end of the line, I only sign as far as Llanwrtyd, the stop before Sugar Loaf. In 3 years on the line, I've only ever had to inform the Carmarthen guard relieving me at Llanwrtyd or Llandrindod about a request for Sugar Loaf once, and even then he was very taken aback!

Update - it's coming up to 4 years now, and I'm up to 2 requests for Sugar Loaf - the second of which I actually got to sell a ticket for! An SDR from Craven Arms if anybody is interested in such things.

 

[PaulLothian]

Re Porthmadog, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porthmadog

The earliest documented references to the name "Port Madoc" are in the 1830s, coinciding with the opening of the Ffestiniog Railway and the subsequent growth of the town. The first Ordnance Survey map to use the name was published in 1838.[9] The name derives from the founder William Madocks,[10] though there is a belief that it is named after the folklore character Madog ab Owain Gwynedd who also gives his name to "Ynys Fadog" (English: "Madog island").[1] The town was officially called "Portmadoc" until 1974, when it was renamed with the Welsh spelling.I

Although I now see someone else has already posted most of this...

 

[cf111]

Wasn't that in part down to the thankfully short-lived period when Haymarket was referred to as (especially on long-distance services from England) Edinburgh Haymarket? Thank Goodness that ended as it was confusing!

As for Sugar Loaf, I'm 99% certain Sugar Loaf had announcements when I did it some months back.

Possibly, I've still very occasionally heard East Coast guards refer to it as Edinburgh Haymarket!

 

[PeterC]

There is a place near to "Bly-na-von" called Varteg, an Anglicised name. Only a couple of years ago it was thought that it should be written in Welsh and become "Y Farteg". An F in Welsh is pronounced as a "v", the letter "v" not existing. The locals were up in arms.

While the official name of Varteg omits the definite article (The word Y in Welsh) the locals refer to the village as "The Varteg".

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

To be honest Halt shouldn't be used anymore anyway. It's a bit old fashioned, really. Not a big fan of "Halt"

 

[Parallel]

To be honest Halt shouldn't be used anymore anyway. It's a bit old fashioned, really. Not a big fan of "Halt"

I'm not a fan either really. I bought a ticket last year that said 'Sugar Loaf Halt' but ATW just refer to it as 'Sugar Loaf' on station CIS and the nameplates at Sugar Loaf station itself.