Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[RichardKing]

The last two are within the realms of fantasy.

They would only really be applicable in a perfect world; although, in a perfect world Horton, Crowther, Foulds and whoever else is in their destructive gang would be packing boxes.

 

[hwl]

Can companies sue the government I can see this situation happening if so. GOVIA get stripped of the GTR franchise. DFT then award it to another company and remove the obligation to extend DOO introduce OBS. GOVIA sue government because it was attempting to enact that obligation that led to them losing the franchise.

Yes and Govia have evidence of DfT failings / omission / inaction that have directly led to current issues from at least early 2012 onwards. DfT definitely don't want to get rid of Govia as it is potentially a retake of the WCML franchise debacle (some of the same staff too...) if everything were to come out into the open and then there will probably be no takers if they try to re-let! (Or none that don't ask for more money!)

 

[RM-Taylor]

I appreciate this might not be the right place but it is to do with a Southern service. Will the Thameslink trains still be running during this 5 day striker? I need to get down to Eastbourne and back a couple of days next week, with no Southern service scheduled from Victoria to Eastbourne i'm planning on getting the Thameslink from St Pancras to Brighton depending on if they are still in service and then bus over to Eastbourne.

 

[hwl]

I appreciate this might not be the right place but it is to do with a Southern service. Will the Thameslink trains still be running during this 5 day striker? I need to get down to Eastbourne and back a couple of days next week, with no Southern service scheduled from Victoria to Eastbourne i'm planning on getting the Thameslink from St Pancras to Brighton depending on if they are still in service and then bus over to Eastbourne.

Yes and with more 12car services than during the last strike.

 

[Fincra5]

I appreciate this might not be the right place but it is to do with a Southern service. Will the Thameslink trains still be running during this 5 day striker? I need to get down to Eastbourne and back a couple of days next week, with no Southern service scheduled from Victoria to Eastbourne i'm planning on getting the Thameslink from St Pancras to Brighton depending on if they are still in service and then bus over to Eastbourne.

Yes, followed by 8 Cars (normally) to EBN.

 

[cjmillsnun]

And those that become OBS will have a continuation of service so their time in that role will add to their redundancy payment

They are being offered conditions worse than their current ones. The idea is to make guards want to leave and thus avoid redundancy payments.
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I think the OBS role is designed for natural wastage.

Bingo

 

[Taunton]

Why are these staff not being offered roles as trainee drivers, which apparently the operator is also short of.

 

[JamesTT]

They are being offered conditions worse than their current ones. The idea is to make guards want to leave and thus avoid redundancy payments.
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Bingo

Please explain the conditions that are worse other than the change in commission structure
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Why are these staff not being offered roles as trainee drivers, which apparently the operator is also short of.

There aren't enough driver instructors to train the ones already in training.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why are these staff not being offered roles as trainee drivers, which apparently the operator is also short of.

Well why don't they apply?

Most of them won't have the aptitude.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Well why don't they apply?

Most of them won't have the aptitude.

Or most of them are that ****** off with the company that to lock themselves in for another year of training...

 

[ComUtoR]

There aren't enough driver instructors to train the ones already in training.

The issue is more than the number of DI's. You cannot just give a Driver's job to everyone. You must go through the assessment process. I'd say that maybe they could skip application but certainly not assessment.

Many people apply but not everyone makes the grade. As you are well aware there is no chance of becoming a Driver if you fail the assessment process. Imagine ensuring every Guard being allowed two assessments, six months apart and then still failing. That would be a huge amount of money wasted and impossible to guarantee. Imagine going through the process twice and failing and then still being faced with potential redundancy.

It's a good sentiment but one that couldn't feasibly be granted.

 

[Robertj21a]

Can companies sue the government I can see this situation happening if so. GOVIA get stripped of the GTR franchise. DFT then award it to another company and remove the obligation to extend DOO introduce OBS. GOVIA sue government because it was attempting to enact that obligation that led to them losing the franchise.

Why would the DfT want to remove the obligation to extend DOO ?

 

[Philip C]

I hesitate to post on this thread but seem to recall reference being made at some point to Guards having 'route knowledge'. Memory suggests that it was posted that in an emergency they would be aware of, for example, the track layout.

I'd always associated route knowledge with drivers and not guards.

My question is posed purely for my better understanding and is "are guards as knowledgeable about routes as drivers and if so how is that knowledge maintained?"

 

[LowLevel]

I hesitate to post on this thread but seem to recall reference being made at some point to Guards having 'route knowledge'. Memory suggests that it was posted that in an emergency they would be aware of, for example, the track layout.

I'd always associated route knowledge with drivers and not guards.

My question is posed purely for my better understanding and is "are guards as knowledgeable about routes as drivers and if so how is that knowledge maintained?"

They used to have to know it as well as drivers and regularly controlled things like shunting and propelling moves.

Nowadays they still have to sign for the route but the knowledge is less detailed than the drivers and focusses on different things.

Speed limits and so on are less relevant (the highest speed you're going to encounter on a route is generally includes though.

You have to know the names of the running lines, controlling signal boxes and method of signalling, platform starting signals, all of the stations whether you stop or not and information about them (if they're manned, have step free access etc), electrification and which Electrical Control Operator is in control of it, axle counter areas, have a reasonable idea of where you are en route, junctions, passing loops, principle level crossings, tunnels, major structures like viaducts, anything specific to the route itself which may be required and a far greater depth of knowledge of the stations and train services themselves than the driver will have for customer service reasons, as well as in case of having to detrain there for example.

To be honest though once you've worked a route a while you'll know far more than the bare minimum - I certainly roughly know where most of the speed restrictions and signals are on my routes, as well as where I am, the things I'm less sure of are things like gradients that don't really affect me.

In addition the guard might be required to operate ground frames, train ready to start buttons at stations, some level crossings or undertake certain specific duties to a route (for example you have to report arrival and departure at Matlock to Network Rail by telephone).

 

[tsr]

They used to have to know it as well as drivers and regularly controlled things like shunting and propelling moves.

Still done on a couple of Southern routes. Mainly on the Uckfield Line, which, as it happens, will keep conductors for the foreseeable...

Nowadays they still have to sign for the route but the knowledge is less detailed than the drivers and focusses on different things.

Speed limits and so on are less relevant (the highest speed you're going to encounter on a route is generally includes though.

You have to know the names of the running lines, controlling signal boxes and method of signalling, platform starting signals, all of the stations whether you stop or not and information about them (if they're manned, have step free access etc), electrification and which Electrical Control Operator is in control of it, axle counter areas, have a reasonable idea of where you are en route, junctions, passing loops, principle level crossings, tunnels, major structures like viaducts, anything specific to the route itself which may be required and a far greater depth of knowledge of the stations and train services themselves than the driver will have for customer service reasons, as well as in case of having to detrain there for example.

To be honest though once you've worked a route a while you'll know far more than the bare minimum - I certainly roughly know where most of the speed restrictions and signals are on my routes, as well as where I am, the things I'm less sure of are things like gradients that don't really affect me.

In addition the guard might be required to operate ground frames, train ready to start buttons at stations, some level crossings or undertake certain specific duties to a route (for example you have to report arrival and departure at Matlock to Network Rail by telephone).

Southern conductors don't deal with ground frames but most of the rest is pretty much spot on. Axle counter areas are marginal away from the WLL/WCML, though increasing in number - and although it is good to know, many train protection principles and conductor procedures are pretty much the same anyway. Obviously the differences are mainly job-specific per region.

An OBS will not be required to maintain route knowledge, which not only has safety implications relating to dealing with emergencies relevant to the above, but also customer service implications. New starters and those transferring from revenue grades will not, for example, be formally briefed on the point at which to make announcements for each and every station, and they currently haven't received information on platforms requiring SDO, or (as far as I know) those not having step-free access. You can't "just tell" at most Southern stations (not that anyone's said you can) and drivers may not be able to advise. In fact, even stations with no step free access often have wheelchair ramps on the platforms, which can be deceptive (the reason for that is to allow passengers to transfer between routes or defective trains serving the same platform). Etc. etc. etc....

 

[Philip C]

Thank you to 'Low Level' and 'tsr' for providing useful and prompt answers to my question.

 

[JamesTT]

Why would the DfT want to remove the obligation to extend DOO ?

Exactly changing the TOC will not change the drive by the DFT to extend DOO. Another TOC might have not taken parking and travel privileges away. They might have not carried out the anti train crew going sick propaganda campaign. But they would still have to bring in more DOO services

 

[SpacePhoenix]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-action-protest-ticket-office-closures.html

Station staff and drivers going to be balloted for strikes.

Depending on how that play it for some stations if each group's strike followed on from the previous group's strike could it leave some stations with no service in effect for days on end?

 

[HH]

The issue is more than the number of DI's. You cannot just give a Driver's job to everyone. You must go through the assessment process. I'd say that maybe they could skip application but certainly not assessment.

Many people apply but not everyone makes the grade. As you are well aware there is no chance of becoming a Driver if you fail the assessment process. Imagine ensuring every Guard being allowed two assessments, six months apart and then still failing. That would be a huge amount of money wasted and impossible to guarantee. Imagine going through the process twice and failing and then still being faced with potential redundancy.

It's a good sentiment but one that couldn't feasibly be granted.

I'm sure that I read that Southern already have an "industry leading" process for moving guards to drivers. Those still around probably already failed the assessment.

 

[infobleep]

I'm sure that I read that Southern already have an "industry leading" process for moving guards to drivers. Those still around probably already failed the assessment.

Or didn't apply. I finished your incomplete sentence for you.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[JamesTT]

Still done on a couple of Southern routes. Mainly on the Uckfield Line, which, as it happens, will keep conductors for the foreseeable...



Southern conductors don't deal with ground frames but most of the rest is pretty much spot on. Axle counter areas are marginal away from the WLL/WCML, though increasing in number - and although it is good to know, many train protection principles and conductor procedures are pretty much the same anyway. Obviously the differences are mainly job-specific per region.

An OBS will not be required to maintain route knowledge, which not only has safety implications relating to dealing with emergencies relevant to the above, but also customer service implications. New starters and those transferring from revenue grades will not, for example, be formally briefed on the point at which to make announcements for each and every station, and they currently haven't received information on platforms requiring SDO, or (as far as I know) those not having step-free access. You can't "just tell" at most Southern stations (not that anyone's said you can) and drivers may not be able to advise. In fact, even stations with no step free access often have wheelchair ramps on the platforms, which can be deceptive (the reason for that is to allow passengers to transfer between routes or defective trains serving the same platform). Etc. etc. etc....

The step free access thing and SDO is easily remedied. Add it to the PIS announcements I believe this already happens for short platforms anyway. It could also be annotated on the diagrams. I don't think I have ever heard a guard mentioning lack of step free access though when announcing.

Regards to the track isn't it best to assume traffic could come in both directions don't touch any thing that looks like a rail and that trains will be travelling at the maximum speed they can. If you need to evacuate the train get people to an area of safety as quickly as possible

 

[infobleep]

The step free access thing and SDO is easily remedied. Add it to the PIS announcements I believe this already happens for short platforms anyway. It could also be annotated on the diagrams. I don't think I have ever heard a guard mentioning lack of step free access though when announcing.

Regards to the track isn't it best to assume traffic could come in both directions don't touch any thing that looks like a rail and that trains will be travelling at the maximum speed they can. If you need to evacuate the train get people to an area of safety as quickly as possible

Why didn't they do the last part of your comment in the tunnel when the 5 hours issues occurred on Thameslink. I've not read the incident report so may be that explains why.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[craigybagel]

The step free access thing and SDO is easily remedied. Add it to the PIS announcements I believe this already happens for short platforms anyway. It could also be annotated on the diagrams. I don't think I have ever heard a guard mentioning lack of step free access though when announcing.

It's not about announcements, it's about knowing what to do with mobility impaired passengers if they wish to alight. Can they do so and be left to themselves, can they do so with assistance (yesterday I had to assist passengers across a Barrow crossing, which involves special procedures, because the station was unstaffed at that time) or do they need to be taken to another station and have onward transport organised from there?

Regards to the track isn't it best to assume traffic could come in both directions don't touch any thing that looks like a rail and that trains will be travelling at the maximum speed they can. If you need to evacuate the train get people to an area of safety as quickly as possible

That is about understanding risks and being able to make split second decisions should there be an incident eg if you have to protect the line,in which direction do you go first.

There are reasons for this knowledge.

 

[JamesTT]

It's not about announcements, it's about knowing what to do with mobility impaired passengers if they wish to alight. Can they do so and be left to themselves, can they do so with assistance (yesterday I had to assist passengers across a Barrow crossing, which involves special procedures, because the station was unstaffed at that time) or do they need to be taken to another station and have onward transport organised from there?



That is about understanding risks and being able to make split second decisions should there be an incident eg if you have to protect the line,in which direction do you go first.

There are reasons for this knowledge.

Aren't all these things that can be dealt with with a bit of forward thinking though?

 

[BestWestern]

I'm sure that I read that Southern already have an "industry leading" process for moving guards to drivers. Those still around probably already failed the assessment.

Yes, because of course as they all move over to drivers it isn't as if the TOC would have to replace them and keep the establishment up or anything.....:roll:

Must engage brain before attempting insulting comment.

 

[JamesTT]

Regards to protecting the line don't TCOCs and dets generally get placed behind the train?

 

[BestWestern]

Regards to the track isn't it best to assume traffic could come in both directions don't touch any thing that looks like a rail and that trains will be travelling at the maximum speed they can. If you need to evacuate the train get people to an area of safety as quickly as possible

Training somebody to go trackside on the basis of assumptions and "don't touch anything that looks like a rail" is somewhat short of the safety standards we enjoy on the railway. We haven't quite stooped that low, yet.
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Regards to protecting the line don't TCOCs and dets generally get placed behind the train?

Protection depends on the situation; protection of the line on which your train is standing occurs in certain circumstances, but always you protect any obstructed lines, that being the basic principle. Ideally detonator protection would be laid in both directions, with the Driver going forwards and the Guard to the rear. Unless of course you're DOO.....

 

[JamesTT]

Training somebody to go trackside on the basis of assumptions and "don't touch anything that looks like a rail" is somewhat short of the safety standards we enjoy on the railway. We haven't quite stooped that low, yet.
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I was simplifying which is surely what train crew would do when communicating with passengers if the need to evacuate arose

Protection depends on the situation; protection of the line on which your train is standing occurs in certain circumstances, but always you protect any obstructed lines, that being the basic principle. Ideally detonator protection would be laid in both directions, with the Driver going forwards and the Guard to the rear. Unless of course you're DOO.....

Which way does the DOO driver go?

 

[craigybagel]

Which way does the DOO driver go?

Whichever way he feels is most important, a decision based on their knowledge of the route and the risks involved. The same as the guard would be doing if the driver is unable to do so themselves (they are in the most vulnerable part of the train after all...........)
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Aren't all these things that can be dealt with with a bit of forward thinking though?

What kind of forward thinking do you have in mind, that's an improvement on the current system?

 

[Carlisle]

The issue is more than the number of DI's. You cannot just give a Driver's job to everyone. You must go through the assessment process. I'd say that maybe they could skip application but certainly not assessment.

Many people apply but not everyone makes the grade. As you are well aware there is no chance of becoming a Driver if you fail the assessment process. Imagine ensuring every Guard being allowed two assessments, six months apart and then still failing. That would be a huge amount of money wasted and impossible to guarantee. Imagine going through the process twice and failing and then still being faced with potential redundancy.

It's a good sentiment but one that couldn't feasibly be granted.

Well we've loads and loads more people nowadays going to university compared to BR times, so if the govt/ DFT got their act together on training there shouldn't be any shortage of potential trainees of sufficient intelligence, providing of course they satisfy the medical criteria