Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[infobleep]

Whilst it's possible the Evening Standard may not agree with the guards views on DOO, they most definitely think the management at Govia are useless, in terms of this dispute at least.

Does anyone here think Govia are doing a good job with their change management? If so please outline in your opinion how they are doing this so well. Saying that are doing what the got wants isn't an acceptable answer as what the government wants may be appalling change management.

I personally think their change management has been appalling, so can't answer the question. Whether they did this to keep the Government happy I don't know.

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[Chrisgr31]

Not everyone hates Southern! Here's a link to a tweet I did earlier https://twitter.com/ChrisGrose2/status/760365371966849024 with a photo of a thank you in the Good Deed feed in the Metro.

Shows that the staff are still doing their best in spite of difficult circumstances
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I personally think their change management has been appalling, so can't answer the question. Whether they did this to keep the Government happy I don't know.

I'll be interested to see if anyone tries to defend their change management! Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of DOO etc its introduction would not appear to be a text book example of good practice.

 

[infobleep]

I'll be interested to see if anyone tries to defend their change management! Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of DOO etc its introduction would not appear to be a text book example of good practice.

Indeed. There have been people defending Southern so I'd like to know if they have an opinion on their change management practices.

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[HowardGWR]

Indeed. There have been people defending Southern so I'd like to know if they have an opinion on their change management practices.

I am not against what Southern is trying to achieve, (or DfT, if it be that source), but I do feel that, tactically, the withdrawal or threatened withdrawal, of parking and travel perks was a bad move. The imposition of wage stopping of two days was in a similar category, although perhaps more tit for tat, given the striking.

The whole theory of change management (I read) is that staff will 'mourn' their previous role, especially if they perceive that it is a dimunition of responsibility.

This has been shewn here by the huge debate of the possible safety and security role of the 'guard' with everything summed up in that esteemed job title.

That's my two pennoth.

 

[theironroad]

Whilst it's possible the Evening Standard may not agree with the guards views on DOO, they most definitely think the management at Govia are useless, in terms of this dispute at least.

Does anyone here think Govia are doing a good job with their change management? If so please outline in your opinion how they are doing this so well. Saying that are doing what the got wants isn't an acceptable answer as what the government wants may be appalling change management.

I personally think their change management has been appalling, so can't answer the question. Whether they did this to keep the Government happy I don't know.

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I read this earlier in print and squirmed at the phrase about doo on other parts of the network with no major issues, exept people being trapped in doors and dragged along platforms.......

As to the es criticising the southern management's handling of this dispute, that is simply that the es 'probably' believe that all the guards should have been fully fired and southern management should have been far more authoritarian in dealing with staff who dare stand up for their jobs. Let's be real, the es is no fan of working people.

 

[HH]

I had to LOL at Corbyn's latest antics.

Southern rail: Jeremy Corbyn calls on government to renationalise

The man doesn't have a clue.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's becoming very noticeable how many people are now ignoring first class restrictions and sitting there and, effectively, spoling for a fight with any Southern offical who might dare to challenge them. I base this on several overheard conversions recently along the lines of - "Just let them try to penalty fare me" (paraphrased). The TTIs have disappeared as suddenly as they re-appeared about a year ago, and conductors have seemingly given up any ticket checking - morale is presumably not motivating them at the moment.

However, a very good exception that I experienced recently was when a woman plonked herself down in first at Victoria, despite there being standard seats available (no excuse anyway) and was annoyed to have been caught out by a very conscientious conductor, whom she accused of being aggressive towards her (as her lies about her journey details emerged). He wasn't at all aggressive, but simply politely and firmly insistent that she should pay the penalty/extra fare, and I piped up to that effect to tell her to behave herself and grow up, essentially. She asked me what business it was of mine, and I told her that she was making it everyone's business by creating a childish 'scene'. She shut up, paid up and got up (at East Croydon)!

I know that first class contravention isn't the most important thing in the world, but the developing attitude is indicative of passengers' feelings towards Southern.
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[HowardGWR]

I had to LOL at Corbyn's latest antics.
The man doesn't have a clue.

Doesn't have a clue about what? I am interested in your views but 'expand and discuss' seems to be in order. I read the report and if he is wrong about taking franchises back, then it would appear many millions of voters agree with him, judging by polling on the issue. Do they all 'not have a clue' too?

 

[Deepgreen]

Doesn't have a clue about what? I am interested in your views but 'expand and discuss' seems to be in order. I read the report and if he is wrong about taking franchises back, then it would appear many millions of voters agree with him, judging by polling on the issue. Do they all 'not have a clue' too?

Referring to the ES article, there still appear to be so many people who don't seem to realise that the Government has already "stepped in", by 'controlling' the issue from behind the screen of GTR.

 

[DarloRich]

Referring to the ES article, there still appear to be so many people who don't seem to realise that the Government has already "stepped in", by 'controlling' the issue from behind the screen of GTR.

but of course - that is exactly how the government want it to be played

 

[Carlisle]

Does anyone here think Govia are doing a good job with their change management?

No they are definatly not ,but they are correct in not accepting the RMTs offer of talks on condition they pause the changes for 3 months,as relations between the 2 sides have become so very poor and bitter I see this as little more than a cynical attempt to turn every bit of bad publicity towards Southern, whilst increasing the length of time till they can actually make any meaningful changes

 

[Deepgreen]

No they are defiantly not ,but they are correct in not accepting the RMTs offer of talks on condition they pause the changes for 3 months, as relations between the 2 sides have become so very poor and bitter I see that as little more than a cynical attempt to try and turn every bit of bad publicity towards Southern, whilst increasing the length of time till they can actually try and make any meaningful changes

Very defiantly!

 

[DarloRich]

No they are defiantly not ,but they are correct in not accepting the RMTs offer of talks on condition they pause the changes for 3 months, as relations between the 2 sides have become so poor I see that as little more than a cynical attempt to try and turn every bit of bad publicity towards Southern, whilst increasing the length of time till they can actually try and make any meaningful changes

To me that seems like a sensible pause for both sides to sit down and try and find an agreement. I guess it depends on how open minded you are.

 

[Carlisle]

To me that seems like a sensible pause for both sides to sit down and try and find an agreement. I guess it depends on how open minded you are.

I'd normally completely agree with that way of thinking, but this disputes gone way beyond that, I suppose GTR want the OBS and more drivers ASAP to at least try and attempt some kind of improvemens whereas presumably by now most of the RMT simply want the franchise stripped from them ASAP

 

[hwl]

To me that seems like a sensible pause for both sides to sit down and try and find an agreement. I guess it depends on how open minded you are.

With most of the Guards transferring to OBS in 2.5 weeks why would GTR sit down as there are only 7 non striking commuting days left! (Only 5 after this week).
After that only 10-12 % of services would need a conductor so the RMT's ability to disrupt is about to shrink massively.

The latest TSSA strike comments and the rail ministers response are likely to turn the users very anti the unions I feel:
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...hern-rail-chaos-short-term-pain-a3310841.html

The union’s leader, Manuel Cortes, said: “The GTR franchise has let down the travelling public and its staff and we would like to see it stripped of its franchise as soon as possible
Read more
Southern rail chaos set to get even worse as unions plan more strikes

“Passengers may have to suffer short-term pain to see a long-term gain in the shape of new owners — hopefully Transport for London, if ministers start seeing sense.”

The TSSA ballot will start on August 11 and last two weeks. Any action in September would be co-ordinated with “our sister rail unions to maximise the impact”, he added.

 

[ComUtoR]

The latest TSSA strike comments and the rail ministers response are likely to turn the users very anti the unions

No worries, they can complain to the TVM machine as there will be no staff in ticket offices left.

 

[Dave1987]

No worries, they can complain to the TVM machine as there will be no staff in ticket offices left.

If the TVM is working, else if there is an OBS on board they can be sold a full price ticket. Was travelling on the underground the other day and there was utter pandemonium with huge queues for the ticket machines and just one member of staff assisting passengers. Understandably people were getting quite irrate.

 

[DarloRich]

With most of the Guards transferring to OBS in 2.5 weeks why would GTR sit down as there are only 7 non striking commuting days left! (Only 5 after this week).
After that only 10-12 % of services would need a conductor so the RMT's ability to disrupt is about to shrink massively.

but the dispute wont go away once the change happens:

1. The dispute will simply extend to other grades at the slightest opportunity.
   
2. Morale & goodwill, already rock bottom ( I should imagine) will remain bad leading to low productivity and little desire to help the employer out or engage with customers and the new role.
   
3. Staff will work to the letter of the law and fail trains for any reason, rest days wont get covered etc
   
4. Short term sickness will remain terrible, long term sickness will rise and
   
5. as service quality falls further once trains run without an OBS ( and passengers understand what that means practically) passengers will get more annoyed and the publicity for an already damaged franchise will become worse.

That is why sitting down and coming to a solution might be a good idea - or we can just go on with a dispute for the rest of the franchise

 

[hwl]

but the dispute wont go away once the change happens - it will simply extend to other grades at the slightest opportunity.

Morale & goodwill, already rock bottom ( I should imagine) will remain bad leading to low productivity and little desire to help the employer out or engage with customers and the new role.

Staff will work to the letter of the law and fail trains for any reason, rest days wont get covered etc

Short term sickness will remain terrible, long term sickness will rise and as service quality falls further once trains run without an OBS ( and passengers understand what that means practically) passengers will get more annoyed and the publicity for an already damaged franchise will become worse.


That is why sitting down and coming to a solution might be a good idea - or we can just go on with a dispute for the rest of the franchise

The 40% of Southern services users already in DOO land understand what running without a conductor /OBS means in practice: Trains run when the RMT goes on strike! (Southern have produced a map to show this too!) I suspect that would be very popular with the rest of Southern users. Many are also used to the GatEX and Thameslink DOO experience.
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No worries, they can complain to the TVM machine as there will be no staff in ticket offices left.

Unions coordinating strike action for maximum impact destroys public support.

 

[ComUtoR]

Unions coordinating strike action for maximum impact destroys public support.

I don't doubt that for a second. Ticket offices are closing, staff are being displaced, opening hours reduced, staff availability reduced. All in the meantime where passengers still want people at the ticket offices to sell them those complicated but cheaper tickets and to reply to their enquiries. There's a thread where TOC's are accused of hiding cheaper tickets. Remind me how good the TVM machines are at finding the best priced ticket, and helping you get to your destination with a random unplanned journey.

Not only that. There are still people out there who cannot buy a ticket at the TVM because their railcard discount isn't available using the machine.

Passengers can complain all they like about the strikes but when there is no staff to deal with their problems then they will complain louder; but no one will give a flying fork and spoon.

 

[Carlisle]

Unions coordinating strike action for maximum impact destroys public support.

Doesn't make any difference, for example I can't recall much public support for any of the tube strikes in recent times , but it hasn't really reduced the likelihood of more sometime in the future

 

[JamesTT]

If the extension of DOO and introduction of OBS are franchise obligations. What exactly will be achieved by changing the TOC?

 

[infobleep]

If the extension of DOO and introduction of OBS are franchise obligations. What exactly will be achieved by changing the TOC?

Better change management?

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[OneOffDave]

This may be a daft question but how would a driver on a DOO train know that a wheelchair user needs to get off at an unstaffed station? How would they be notified of my assistance booking and then how would they know if I was actually on the train, particularly if I'd got on at a staffed station?

 

[RichardKing]

If I was speaking on behalf of the RMT during a talk with GTR management, I would request the implementation of the following once DOO is in place:

-If the driver believes that closing the doors will cause someone or something to become trapped, they should leave the cab and manually lock out any affected coach, regardless of the resulting delay (it will simply be a consequence of DOO). The passengers should then be informed of the exact reason behind the delay over the PA system so they know the management is to blame;
-If the view out of any camera becomes obscured (i.e. due to sunlight), the driver will not move the train until a time when they can clearly see the entire length of the train on the platform. Again, the passengers will be informed of the exact reason behind the delay so they know who to blame;
-During key events, which attract many passengers (such as the Lewes Bonfire or the upcoming Eastbourne Airshow), all trains on the appropriate route(s) will have a Guard, in order to ensure that the high volume of passengers do not put themselves in danger (especially at unmanned stations) when boarding/alighting the train;
-Passengers should be provided with enhanced compensation if any delay occurs that could have been minimized had a Guard been on the train; i.e. if the train breaks down and the driver is left to deal with the fault, the communications between the train and control/the signalman, the passengers (and how they react to being stuck) and the rescue process single-handedly - perhaps the management should refer back to what happened in 2011 when that FCC train became trapped between St Pancras and Kentish Town and passengers evacuated themselves onto the track, resulting in the rescue process taking approximately 5 hours. Now, if a Guard was present he/she could have spent their time dealing with and communicating to the passengers (for anyone who isn't aware, the PA and A/C systems also failed), and the driver could focus on getting everyone to the next station;
-In the event of an accident, which leaves the driver incapacitated, if a MOM is not on site within 15 minutes (time does make the difference), GTR will be finned heavily and the money will be taken directly from the managers individual pay checks - that'll put a smile on Horton's face!

Please feel free to add anymore suggestions below.

 

[Carlisle]

If the extension of DOO and introduction of OBS are franchise obligations. What exactly will be achieved by changing the TOC?

A big warning to the rest of the industry to pay more attention to staff/Unions and solid proof of the ultimate consequences of not doing so

 

[hwl]

A big warning to the rest of the industry to pay more attention to staff/Unions and solid proof of the ultimate consequences of not doing so

Which is why it is very unlikely to happen.

 

[ComUtoR]

-If the driver believes that closing the doors will cause someone or something to become trapped, they should leave the cab and manually lock out any affected coach, regardless of the resulting delay (it will simply be a consequence of DOO). The passengers should then be informed of the exact reason behind the delay over the PA system

-If the view out of any camera becomes obscured (i.e. due to sunlight), the driver will not move the train until a time when they can clearly see the entire length of the train on the platform. Again, the passengers will be informed of the exact reason behind the delay

Already happens.

As to blame. The right people never get the blame and nobody accepts responsibility.

As to the delay. If your journey is delayed by 30 minutes of more then please fill out a Delay Repay request.

 

[AlterEgo]

If I was speaking on behalf of the RMT during a talk with GTR management, I would request the implementation of the following once DOO is in place:

-If the driver believes that closing the doors will cause someone or something to become trapped, they should leave the cab and manually lock out any affected coach, regardless of the resulting delay (it will simply be a consequence of DOO). The passengers should then be informed of the exact reason behind the delay over the PA system so they know the management is to blame;
-If the view out of any camera becomes obscured (i.e. due to sunlight), the driver will not move the train until a time when they can clearly see the entire length of the train on the platform. Again, the passengers will be informed of the exact reason behind the delay so they know who to blame;
-During key events, which attract many passengers (such as the Lewes Bonfire or the upcoming Eastbourne Airshow), all trains on the appropriate route(s) will have a Guard, in order to ensure that the high volume of passengers do not put themselves in danger (especially at unmanned stations) when boarding/alighting the train;
-Passengers should be provided with enhanced compensation if any delay occurs that could have been minimized had a Guard been on the train; i.e. if the train breaks down and the driver is left to deal with the fault, the communications between the train and control/the signalman, the passengers (and how they react to being stuck) and the rescue process single-handedly - perhaps the management should refer back to what happened in 2011 when that FCC train became trapped between St Pancras and Kentish Town and passengers evacuated themselves onto the track, resulting in the rescue process taking approximately 5 hours. Now, if a Guard was present he/she could have spent their time dealing with and communicating to the passengers (for anyone who isn't aware, the PA and A/C systems also failed), and the driver could focus on getting everyone to the next station;
-In the event of an accident, which leaves the driver incapacitated, if a MOM is not on site within 15 minutes (time does make the difference), GTR will be finned heavily and the money will be taken directly from the managers individual pay checks - that'll put a smile on Horton's face!

Please feel free to add anymore suggestions below.

The last two are within the realms of fantasy.

 

[JamesTT]

Which is why it is very unlikely to happen.

Can companies sue the government I can see this situation happening if so. GOVIA get stripped of the GTR franchise. DFT then award it to another company and remove the obligation to extend DOO introduce OBS. GOVIA sue government because it was attempting to enact that obligation that led to them losing the franchise.