Why such relatively low ridership on the AVE?

[185]

Somehow clicked through to this article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-value-for-money-at-10-times-the-cost-of-hig/

There's a graph of high speed system length. Both France and Spain have similar sized systems, but France's carries 10x the passengers of Spain! Are these figures right, and if so how come?

Thanks

Spainish AVE seems to have little or no advance fares, and time after time on checking, the minimum 4-week advance type fare for the two hour Barcelona-Madrid hop (during daylight) seemed to start at €80. In contrast the airlines doing it start at €19.

Perhaps RENFE's faresetting has not got the right balance. One train I went on some years ago was full. Well, the carriage I was in. The other seven coaches were almost totally empty... couldn't hardly see one head in any of the other carriages. What a mess.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

It also appears that while they've strived to build the biggest HS rail network in Europe, there are some serious gaps on the network. The north coast Feve line is not well integrated into RENFE (tickets can't be bought online and times can't be retrieved on the RENFE website, while south east and Portuguese links are sorely lacking.

In truth, while every politician speaks about the useless Lisboa - Madrid (Portuguese don t go that much to Madrid (the city) and hardly any interest in the no man s land between the border and Madrid ) a line to Costa del Sol would probably be far more useful

There are only two places in Portugal where a true potential exists for a trans border exist to Spain. In is on the North Coast ( Oporto - Galicia) where you currently have a rubish service and on the South Coast ( Algarve - Andalucia) where you have no trans border line but surely have a hell of a packed road all year round.

Regarding the line (Portugal) - Badajoz - Madrid... go to Renfe.es and see how many trains a day you have from Badajoz to Madrid...
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Spainish AVE seems to have little or no advance fares, and time after time on checking, the minimum 4-week advance type fare for the two hour Barcelona-Madrid hop (during daylight) seemed to start at €80. In contrast the airlines doing it start at €19.

Perhaps RENFE's faresetting has not got the right balance. One train I went on some years ago was full. Well, the carriage I was in. The other seven coaches were almost totally empty... couldn't hardly see one head in any of the other carriages. What a mess.

The French high speed is way different from the Spanish for several reasons but one main reason is that the French high speed is usually not regarded as an added value service. Some high speed trains at part of the journey work as local trains. For example, a train Paris - Irun, will go as a fast train to Bordeaux via the high speed line, and from there on it becomes nearly an all shacks stopper!

 

[EAD]

Spainish AVE seems to have little or no advance fares, and time after time on checking, the minimum 4-week advance type fare for the two hour Barcelona-Madrid hop (during daylight) seemed to start at €80. In contrast the airlines doing it start at €19.

Perhaps RENFE's faresetting has not got the right balance. One train I went on some years ago was full. Well, the carriage I was in. The other seven coaches were almost totally empty... couldn't hardly see one head in any of the other carriages. What a mess.

It can be difficult to get cheap fares given the quota once used is used up, but I have just had a look and can see plenty of availability for a random trip in September where each leg is at the €45 mark. Don't forget the site automatically gives you the cheapest for a given train, but it does so irrespective of class/conditions. I always play around with it to find what I want, given there are also different price tiers by ticket type as well (like airline fare buckets). Also as with UK it depends what you want in terms of flexibility, class, etc. Looking at it a promo in turista can be had from around €30. As to seats - like most booking systems it tends to allocate from a given carriage for a given class and they are compulsory of course so that would explain bunching (although now you can pick your seat when you book online).
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To be clear, there are things RENFE can do better but as a product AVE, AVANT etc are generally very good. The same goes for each country and its high speed networks, they all have their quirks and different ways of doing things.

On a couple of things posted:

Re FEVE. As that is a metre gauge network, it is very slow (given most of the network is along the north coast in the mountains) and while now part of RENFE was independent and essentially runs as such. I do agree that the web is pretty light on FEVE information, but it is there (certainly in the relevant Spanish languages e.g. Castilian/castellano and Basque/euskera where EuskoTren runs the service).

On cross-border links to Portugal. They have as others have said always been poor and really only focused on the Madrid-Lisbon route (hanging on in there, but with reduced service). I can see the politics of eventually getting the high speed line finalised, but it is still a way off.

As for other links, I am just not sure there is the demand. While on a rail site it would be nice to see them upgraded and used properly for passengers, the motorway networks have whatever cross border traffic there is including coaches for example between Seville and the Algarve in the south for example.

 

[J-2739]

Not sure that is true, population density is nearly equal.

Either way, I'd understand a 50% difference perhaps, but a 10x difference is quite staggering.

Nowhere near equal

 

[dutchflyer]

How long (time) is the Madrid-Toledo AVE service? ISTR that the old non AVE service didn't take that long

Did this trip-out by frequent motorwaybus (ALSA, a subsid. of one of UKs;'big bus companies), cost was then 5,50 or so, and back by AVE-half the time, more as twice the cost (even with 25% senior discount). though the bus leaves from a metro stop further out of central Madrid. Its just a single track sidespur of the oldest AVE-line to Sevilla.
Another thing compared to FR is that most distances in Espana are much larger between the big centres, thus more fit for airplane competition. Untill the full AVE Mad-Barca opened and before the econ. crisis, it was said that the air-shuttle Mad-BCN was among the most frequent in this world (2/3 planes per hour). But then that would mean roughly 400/600 pax/hr: a decent AVE can seat more!
[in peak times LON-AMS, all airports combined, is also around that frequency].
Single track AVE is not a paradox at all: it just easily is enough for those low frequencies-and even in CHina where they build HS-lines by the million, they also have them. And it was on many sectors instigated as an economy measure just after that crisis.

 

[EAD]

Did this trip-out by frequent motorwaybus (ALSA, a subsid. of one of UKs;'big bus companies), cost was then 5,50 or so, and back by AVE-half the time, more as twice the cost (even with 25% senior discount). though the bus leaves from a metro stop further out of central Madrid. Its just a single track sidespur of the oldest AVE-line to Sevilla.
Another thing compared to FR is that most distances in Espana are much larger between the big centres, thus more fit for airplane competition. Untill the full AVE Mad-Barca opened and before the econ. crisis, it was said that the air-shuttle Mad-BCN was among the most frequent in this world (2/3 planes per hour). But then that would mean roughly 400/600 pax/hr: a decent AVE can seat more!
[in peak times LON-AMS, all airports combined, is also around that frequency].
Single track AVE is not a paradox at all: it just easily is enough for those low frequencies-and even in CHina where they build HS-lines by the million, they also have them. And it was on many sectors instigated as an economy measure just after that crisis.

I remember the old line before they built the AVE spur. Was very pleasant too (slower of course), from Atocha to Aranjuez and then branching off towards Toledo (westwards) at Castillejo-Añover. It passes under the LAV towards Seville and of course this is where the new line then joins the old formation. I believe the old line was abandoned when the standard gauge spur was built (which makes sense since Madrid was the only destination served anyhow so why complicate it by having Iberian and standard gauge track).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There are only two places in Portugal where a true potential exists for a trans border exist to Spain. In is on the North Coast ( Oporto - Galicia) where you currently have a rubish service and on the South Coast ( Algarve - Andalucia) where you have no trans border line but surely have a hell of a packed road all year round.

I see the Porto-Valenca (Galician border) line is to be electrified by CP.
Electrification currently runs from Porto as far as Nine (and on the branch to Braga), but after that it is a single track old-fashioned diesel route round the coast past Viana and up the Minho river to Valenca.
Very scenic but operated by run-down Porto area DMUs, despite the posh name "Celta", with only 2 trains per day through to Vigo.
Nothing said yet about the Spanish side to Vigo, but the line is already electrified from just across the border bridge over the Minho from Valenca, at Tui.

I've found it quite easy to book cheap seats on RENFE (in fact it's RENFE that books the Celta service, not CP), but they can be very late getting the trains bookable on line.
Senior fares (usually 40% off with a €6 annual Tarjeta Dorada railcard) are good value.
You also get a free local ticket for city connections linked to a long-distance ticket.
The main annoyance is the inability to book connections, so you have to book trains separately.
Also the luggage security checks on long distance services waste time, much like Eurostar.
The Euskotren metro service Hendaye-Irun-San Sebastian and beyond is very good (excellent new CAF EMUs).

 

[Flying_Turtle]

I see the Porto-Valenca (Galician border) line is to be electrified by CP.
Electrification currently runs from Porto as far as Nine (and on the branch to Braga), but after that it is a single track old-fashioned diesel route round the coast past Viana and up the Minho river to Valenca.
Very scenic but operated by run-down Porto area DMUs, despite the posh name "Celta", with only 2 trains per day through to Vigo.
Nothing said yet about the Spanish side to Vigo, but the line is already electrified from just across the border bridge over the Minho from Valenca, at Tui.

(...) .

That electrification is a bit like HS2... as is the fact those lines still are telephonic block and they still have to modernize it too
It was supposed to be an high speed line but then money run out...

 

[Blamethrower]

Spain has been engaged in a massive High Speed line programme for many years, and apart from the first few most have been built for political reasons and would never pass any test of value for money. The opening of the lines is often timed to be just before an election.

They have these vastly expensive high speed lines, with large numbers of bridges and tunnels, that are built single track because there is so little traffic, for goodness sake! They also, uniquely, have high speed lines which aren't electrified. Despite the lack of passenger traffic, these lines are built without any provision for use by freight.

This year the Spanish government will spend 67% of it's rail budget of high speed lines. Sadly this extravagance comes at the expense of the rest of the network which carries the vast majority of the passengers. However, maintenance of the existing network doesn't give political benefit to the government, so...

Any EU investment in these?
Same as the empty towns/cities/airports/motorways that they built too?

It's not just the railways that are like this in Spain, there just isn't any thriving local economies (other than tourism) to make all these investments worthwhile

 

[SWT_USER]

The French high speed is way different from the Spanish for several reasons but one main reason is that the French high speed is usually not regarded as an added value service. Some high speed trains at part of the journey work as local trains. For example, a train Paris - Irun, will go as a fast train to Bordeaux via the high speed line, and from there on it becomes nearly an all shacks stopper!

Not really an all shacks stopper. After Bordeaux it is non stop to Dax (where often a train splits for Tarbes) and then Bayonne, Biarritz, St Jean De Luz - all of which have a decebt number of people alighting from Paris. There are TER/ Intercités services for the all shacks local service.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Fairly encouraging news on a reduction in Spanish unemployment , along with a healthy toursit business this year - for obvious reasons - which may give a stimulus to optional AVE traffic.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Fairly encouraging news on a reduction in Spanish unemployment , along with a healthy toursit business this year - for obvious reasons - which may give a stimulus to optional AVE traffic.

don't count on it
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Not really an all shacks stopper. After Bordeaux it is non stop to Dax (where often a train splits for Tarbes) and then Bayonne, Biarritz, St Jean De Luz - all of which have a decebt number of people alighting from Paris. There are TER/ Intercités services for the all shacks local service.

Which are still very small cities to be served by an high speed line, at least in a more elitist view of high speed trains which prevails a bit around the world... Still a nearly all stopper for the final part of the run !

 

[leytongabriel]

I would suggest there are a number of factors. Spain's rail service historically have been quite poor which led to a very comprehensive and cheap coach network developing with a reasonable quality offering. Then came the low cost airlines and competition low fares and frequent services made routes such as Barcelona Madrid one of the busiest in Europe. In France high speed rail was introduced when the railways had a far greater share of the market and in a very regulated transport market. In Spain high speed rail was introduced in a much more competitive and deregulated market where it had a much smaller market share.

I think that's all true and there's a social/political aspect too in that RENFE was associated to an extent with the old fascist regime, as an arm of the state. I spent some time in Spain in the 80s and young people in particular were adverse to using trains. Most were desperately slow compared with almost anywhere else appart from Portugal and Greece. They didn't have the comfort cache ( apart from the TALGOS) which trains elswhere had over coaches and were a kind of last resort choice. Never forget being in a coach crossing Andulicia half full of nuns which was showing a soft-porn movie. Something RENFE could never compete with.