TfL bus stops outside of London

[anti-pacer]

I believe there are TfL 'roundel' bus stops on the 81 route in Slough, and also some around Dorking and Redhill.

Does anyone know why?

TfL buses run into Herts and Essex but I haven't seen any there.

 

[PeterC]

They are found in Essex as well, the stops on route 375 are all TfL ones and I have seen examples on other TfL routes. I think they are standard for all TfL routes regardless of which side of the county boundary the bus is stopping. I am sure that the transport authorities concerned are happy for the cost to come out of TfL's budget.

Of course where a route is withdrawn the old stop may remain in place. I don't know any examples of TfL stops but I have seen a few ex London Transport ones in the former Country area.

 

[Quakkerillo]

If you mean this, https://goo.gl/maps/6HZAZVnasiD2 , I think it can be found in most places with TfL buses (this is in Whyteleafe, Surrey).

with Slough, and Dorking, you're outside of the Oyster zone, yet all TfL buses with the roundel accept Oyster. So I'd assume it is to be easily recognisable as a bus service accepting Oyster, even if you're outside of the zones.

 

[TrenHotel]

If you mean this, https://goo.gl/maps/6HZAZVnasiD2 , I think it can be found in most places with TfL buses (this is in Whyteleafe, Surrey).

with Slough, and Dorking, you're outside of the Oyster zone, yet all TfL buses with the roundel accept Oyster. So I'd assume it is to be easily recognisable as a bus service accepting Oyster, even if you're outside of the zones.

The roundel on the bus itself will show it takes Oyster, but not on the bus stop. A TfL bus stop, whether inside London or outside, may also cater for non-TfL services that don't accept Oyster (like the ones in Slough, which serve the 81 and a load of non-TfL local services: http://goo.gl/2kfeaP).

I think Hertfordshire keeps control of its bus stops, even where TfL routes stop; and the 492 out to Bluewater also stops at non-London stops, even though TfL stops have been installed elsewhere in Kent (the 233 terminus in Swanley:
http://goo.gl/0HTOi5). But those are the exceptions (I think - happy to be corrected). Not sure of the hows and whys, I expect it's just down to local circumstances.

Because TfL tries to make all its information consistent, it produces a huge number of timetables for non-London routes that stop at its stops. You can see them here under "route not operated as part of the London Buses network": http://www.busmap.co.uk/timetables.html

 

[MedwayValiant]

In Barnet and Orpington (and possibly a couple of other places, but those are the ones I know about), there are stops within the TfL zonal area which are served only by non-TfL buses which do not accept Oystercards.

What do those stops look like? Since TfL chooses not to serve them they shouldn't really be TfL stops with the roundel, so is the operators' job to provide the poles and flags?


The furthest out of London that I ever saw an LT stop was on Kimpton (Hertfordshire) High Street outside the White Horse pub. It was still an LT stop well into the 90s, although by now it's been replaced by a standard Hertfordshire one.

 

[PeterC]

What do those stops look like? Since TfL chooses not to serve them they shouldn't really be TfL stops with the roundel, so is the operators' job to provide the poles and flags?

I thought that poles and flags were the responsibility of the transport authority. For the 498 all the stops in Brentwood High Street which are shared with other routes (2 stops in each direction) are Essex County Council ones but every other stop (498 only) to the county boundary is a TfL one.

I think that Watford town centre has all HCC stops.

 

[TrenHotel]

In Barnet and Orpington (and possibly a couple of other places, but those are the ones I know about), there are stops within the TfL zonal area which are served only by non-TfL buses which do not accept Oystercards.

What do those stops look like? Since TfL chooses not to serve them they shouldn't really be TfL stops with the roundel, so is the operators' job to provide the poles and flags?

Here's Knockholt Station, just inside the TfL area - only served by Arriva's 402, but still with a TfL stop: https://goo.gl/9xCVGz

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think that Watford town centre has all HCC stops.

Herts use their own stops everywhere, even in parts of the county (e.g. Bushey Heath, Borehamwood) where everything is pretty much TfL.

ETA: I'm not sure if they do in Potters Bar, having just said that...

 

[transmanche]

Herts use their own stops everywhere, even in parts of the county (e.g. Bushey Heath, Borehamwood) where everything is pretty much TfL.

ETA: I'm not sure if they do in Potters Bar, having just said that...

The ones at Potters Bar station are Herts CC stops.

 

[CatfordCat]

In answer to the original question, because TfL want to have them and are prepared to install them at their own cost - and also to prepare and post timetables in TfL corporate style even for the non TfL services.

There are some areas where the local council outside London have got their own stop in the ground first, but others where the council is happy to let TfL get on with it.

Ownership of bus stop infrastructure varies around the country - bus shelters are usually the local borough / district council or in some cases the town or parish council's.

Bus stop posts and / or flags may be the county council's (obviously where it's a unitary council, then the district and county are the same thing) or responsibility may be given to the bus operators.

I believe the latter is the case in Berkshire - there were some very tired ex LT stop posts in Slough on Uxbridge Road when that section of route was only served by Nightingale, and the post was leaning gradually more alarmingly towards the road until it finally got taken out (I think the council decided it would be easier to hoick it out rather than wait for it to fall down then get in to legal arguments about it.)

There are (or certainly were until a year or so back) some abandoned bus stops showing increasingly tatty Tillingbourne bus stop flags and timetables within Wokingham borough on the A 327 south of Arborfield on a section of route that got abandoned when Tillingbourne ceased operations in 2000-ish.

 

[Hassocks5489]

This prompted me to have a look through some photos from July 2013, when I was wandering around in deepest Surrey with the help of Route 465 and a Travelcard. Just visible next to the bus I got off in Mickleham is a standard design TfL bus stop with roundel... (sadly the pub had not yet opened, although it was 10am!!)

 

[causton]

In Barnet and Orpington (and possibly a couple of other places, but those are the ones I know about), there are stops within the TfL zonal area which are served only by non-TfL buses which do not accept Oystercards.

What do those stops look like? Since TfL chooses not to serve them they shouldn't really be TfL stops with the roundel, so is the operators' job to provide the poles and flags?

The ones in Barnet are standard ones. I did see at the Herts/TfL boundary for a short while there were TfL and Herts ones virtually touching each other as obviously they both sent contractors out to put them up!

Edit: Here is the point, even with a Uno bus to prove the point albeit heading the other way...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6...LUghouBA!2e0!5s20090201T000000!7i13312!8i6656

 

[Be3G]

Herts use their own stops everywhere, even in parts of the county (e.g. Bushey Heath, Borehamwood) where everything is pretty much TfL.

ETA: I'm not sure if they do in Potters Bar, having just said that...

The ones at Potters Bar station are Herts CC stops.

As indeed are all of the Potters Bar-area bus stops that I've seen, right up to the boundary with London at the M25.

One thing I do find quite interesting to observe in Hertfordshire and Essex is a number of what're clearly ex-London bus shelters on routes that have no TfL services, no doubt harking back to the days of London Transport serving places like Hammond Street and Upshire.

 

[jon0844]

Edit: Here is the point, even with a Uno bus to prove the point albeit heading the other way...

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6...LUghouBA!2e0!5s20090201T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Nice to see one of their buses actually upright on that bit of road....

 

[TrenHotel]

Here's a paper from Sevenoaks Council on the introduction of TfL stops

http://cds.sevenoaks.gov.uk/Data/Se...ements - Swanley, Halstead and Knockholt..pdf

 

[Busaholic]

Here's a paper from Sevenoaks Council on the introduction of TfL stops

http://cds.sevenoaks.gov.uk/Data/Se...ements - Swanley, Halstead and Knockholt..pdf

The paper (from 2007) would appear to show that the bus stops in Swanley had always been TfL and predecessors, and I think this was because there had always been a red (i.e. Central) London route in the area, traditionally the 21/A whereas in Knockholt and Westerham it had been green (Country) buses before London Transport was split in 1970. Potters Bar/Cuffley etc was also red bus territory.

 

[matt_world2004]

Here's Knockholt Station, just inside the TfL area - only served by Arriva's 402, but still with a TfL stop: https://goo.gl/9xCVGz

Dont the 402 still accept oyster cards?

 

[plcd1]

TfL stops stretch almost all the way to Redhill on the 405 which suprised me when I rode it down there. As already mentioned the 465 has plenty of TfL stops in Surrey but I don't recall any at Dorking Station. There are certainly TfL stops stretching into Essex and out to Staines in Surrey.

I think, but have not seen them in the metal, that TfL provides stops on roads in Uxbridge and Kingston where no TfL contracted services run. Those stops are in Greater London so certainly TfL's responsibility.

 

[Hadders]

Waltham Cross bus station had TfL branding wen I was last there despite it being in Hertfordshire.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Dont the 402 still accept oyster cards?

No. Paper One Day Travelcards are accepted between Bromley and Knockholt (I think this is for historical reasons, connected with Knockholt having been in LB Bromley until 1969), but Oyster cards are not.

I'm not sure if it's still the case, but last time I used the 402 Oyster holders could travel for child fares (Knockholt to Bromley £1.30 instead of £2.60, iirc), but they had to pay that reduced fare in money.

At least it's clear to passengers that this is not a "normal" TfL service, because Arriva-coloured buses are used rather than TfL-coloured buses. Arriva-coloured buses are also used on the 477 (Orpington - Swanley - Bluewater), which also doesn't accept Oyster cards.

It may be less clear to passengers at Barnet embarking on a Metroline 84 towards Potters Bar and St Albans (and now Luton, but it certainly didn't go there "in my day"!). Oyster cards used to be accepted between Barnet and Potters Bar but no longer, and yet the bus is still red.

 

[Be3G]

Waltham Cross bus station had TfL branding wen I was last there despite it being in Hertfordshire.

It does indeed – it was, to the best of my knowledge, paid for by TfL and built to their requirements. This has caused a bit of contention with provincial operators, who on occasion have been unable to terminate services in the bus station owing to lack of standing capacity there.

It also means it is (I think) the only case of TfL creating a spider map for a location outside London, and therefore is unusual in having non-London routes diagrammed in (the only other place I know of where they do this is Heathrow).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It may be less clear to passengers at Barnet embarking on a Metroline 84 towards Potters Bar and St Albans (and now Luton, but it certainly didn't go there "in my day"!). Oyster cards used to be accepted between Barnet and Potters Bar but no longer, and yet the bus is still red.

Yes it's rather disappointing that the 84 no longer takes Oyster as it does provide a useful service in the Barnet to Potters Bar area. I suppose that in TfL's mind the 399 covers the otherwise unserved stretch of the 84 that actually sits within London, and the 626 school bus provides a link for pupils to get to Potters Bar, so there is no need to provide anything else to cover for the ‘loss’*of the 84.

 

[Busaholic]

Waltham Cross was the terminal point of four trolleybus routes, offering a combined service during peak hours of a trolleybus every 1-2 minutes down to Ponders End and beyond during the 1950s - some country area! The only other London trolleybus route that reached beyond the GLC boundary (although of course the GLC didn't exist during the trolleybus era) was the 607 at Uxbridge.

 

[Ian Hardy]

Waltham Cross was the terminal point of four trolleybus routes, offering a combined service during peak hours of a trolleybus every 1-2 minutes down to Ponders End and beyond during the 1950s - some country area! The only other London trolleybus route that reached beyond the GLC boundary (although of course the GLC didn't exist during the trolleybus era) was the 607 at Uxbridge.

Are you sure that the 607 went outside the GLC area, the Frays Bridge turning circle was east of the Grand Union Canal bridge, the border between GLC and Buckinghamshire was the River Colne. The old UX garage however was outside Greater London in Oxford Road.

 

[AB93]

TfL stops stretch almost all the way to Redhill on the 405 which suprised me when I rode it down there. As already mentioned the 465 has plenty of TfL stops in Surrey but I don't recall any at Dorking Station. There are certainly TfL stops stretching into Essex and out to Staines in Surrey.

All TfL-served stops in Surrey are TfL stops, as per an agreement between Surrey CC and TfL. Many of them carry the Traveline phone number, as part of this.

The only exceptions are the town centres, where Surrey CC do the stops themselves: Staines bus station, Dorking (incl. station), Epsom and Redhill - and possibly elsewhere I've forgotten.

 

[Ian Hardy]

TfL stops stretch almost all the way to Redhill on the 405 which suprised me when I rode it down there. As already mentioned the 465 has plenty of TfL stops in Surrey but I don't recall any at Dorking Station. There are certainly TfL stops stretching into Essex and out to Staines in Surrey.

I think, but have not seen them in the metal, that TfL provides stops on roads in Uxbridge and Kingston where no TfL contracted services run. Those stops are in Greater London so certainly TfL's responsibility.

I think that TfL provides most of the bus stops on TfL routes in the Surrey CC area. The 81 has TfL stops all the way to Slough. The out county sections of the 331 (in Denham & Harefield), the 96, 428 & 492 (to Dartford & Bluewater), 233 (to Swanley) have TfL stops. Watching Ride London last Sunday on TV the cyclists went passed TfL stops on Portsmouth Road between Thames Ditton and Kingston. Also TfL provide the stops for the Kingston University services. There are TfL stops on the short section of First's 7 & 58 that are in Greater London west of Uxbridge. I cannot remember whether there are TfL stops in Watford, Elstree & Potters Bar.

 

[Busaholic]

Are you sure that the 607 went outside the GLC area, the Frays Bridge turning circle was east of the Grand Union Canal bridge, the border between GLC and Buckinghamshire was the River Colne. The old UX garage however was outside Greater London in Oxford Road.

No, not 100% sure - I knew UX garage was outside, you're probably right about the turning circle being the 'right' side. Hampton Court on the 667 is sometimes quoted as going beyond the GLC boundary, but it never did.

 

[plcd1]

Waltham Cross was the terminal point of four trolleybus routes, offering a combined service during peak hours of a trolleybus every 1-2 minutes down to Ponders End and beyond during the 1950s - some country area! The only other London trolleybus route that reached beyond the GLC boundary (although of course the GLC didn't exist during the trolleybus era) was the 607 at Uxbridge.

Err 696 Woolwich to Dartford?

 

[Ian Hardy]

No, not 100% sure - I knew UX garage was outside, you're probably right about the turning circle being the 'right' side. Hampton Court on the 667 is sometimes quoted as going beyond the GLC boundary, but it never did.

Looking at a Quail Map of the London Trolleybus System (dating from 1977 but reprinted in 1990), the 667 and the 604 terminated at the roundabout on the northside of the river (i.e. in London), it was the replacement 267 route that was extended to Hampton Court Station forecourt over in Surrey.

Another outside of London trolleybus route was the short stretch of the 602 from Seething Wells Waterworks (the boundary of Greater London) to the Dittons.

 

[Busaholic]

Err 696 Woolwich to Dartford?

There's no fool like an old fool, and I am that old fool. Particularly unforgivable as I was born and grew up in the old Borough of Woolwich and spent hours and days at the Parsons Hill terminus of the 696 and 698 watching those trolleybuses, but never actually went on one as I'd cycled from Eltham and couldn't leave the bike; probably didn't have the fare anyway. I may never have seen them in Dartford, but, still, no excuse and I'm grateful you pointed it out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looking at a Quail Map of the London Trolleybus System (dating from 1977 but reprinted in 1990), the 667 and the 604 terminated at the roundabout on the northside of the river (i.e. in London), it was the replacement 267 route that was extended to Hampton Court Station forecourt over in Surrey.

Another outside of London trolleybus route was the short stretch of the 602 from Seething Wells Waterworks (the boundary of Greater London) to the Dittons.

Yes, it caused confusion later about the boundaries at the Court. I hadn't been aware of the section of the 602, a route I never travelled on. By the way, once a year a variation on the 667 went to Shepherd's Bush rather than Hammersmith: I don't want to make a fool of myself (again!) and give the wrong date, but I believe it was Christmas Day: if not, it was Boxing Day. Sorry, I have all the info somewhere, but my wife is ill and I can't spare the time to research it.

 

[MotCO]

No. Paper One Day Travelcards are accepted between Bromley and Knockholt (I think this is for historical reasons, connected with Knockholt having been in LB Bromley until 1969), but Oyster cards are not.

I'm not sure if it's still the case, but last time I used the 402 Oyster holders could travel for child fares (Knockholt to Bromley £1.30 instead of £2.60, iirc), but they had to pay that reduced fare in money.

At least it's clear to passengers that this is not a "normal" TfL service, because Arriva-coloured buses are used rather than TfL-coloured buses. Arriva-coloured buses are also used on the 477 (Orpington - Swanley - Bluewater), which also doesn't accept Oyster cards.

.

I think that the issue re the 402 is that the boundary between the GLC area and Sevenoaks Borough Council is at Knockholt, and therefore paper Travelcards are valid up to this boundary; I assume that all 'approved' routes within the GLC area should accept paper Travelcards - does the 477 accept them up to the GLC boundary? I also assume that Oysters are not valid since the service is not a TfL tendered service and therefore Arriva do not need to fit ticket machines capable of reading them / deducting journeys from them (and at what rate?).