Ticket Validity from Fastticket etc and breaking your journey.

[rosscbrown]

Sorry for all the questions. I feel like I'm nagging you with my really simple questions.

I've been reading about my rail card and the minimum fare before 10:30H (I think). If I buy a walk up ticket from a Fastticket machine, before 10:30H and tell the machine that I have a YP rail card, will it make sure that my ticket is valid with regards to the minimum fare. And does the minimum fare apply to Advance [Purchase] tickets too?

Also, I can't quite get my head around the rules for breaking a journey. I travel between Edinburgh and Glasgow more often than I'd like to admit and I've always been curious about all the place in-between. If I wanted to visit them would I need to buy tickets like Edinburgh to Falkirk High and then Falkirk High to Glasgow or could I go explore the stations in between with a Edinburgh > Glasgow ticket?

 

[yorkie]

No problem with the questions - that's what we're here for!

Ticket validities are no different from FastTicket machines than from any other method of purchase. The question is how the machines enforce the rules.

I suspect that if buying on the day it probably will force you to pay the minimum fare before 10:00. In theory it should allow a discounted ticket several minutes before 10:00 otherwise that could cause problems catching a train that departs on the hour.

I used to buy tickets for use before 10am regularly a few years ago for use on a train around 09:45 on Virgin CrossCountry (as it was then) and not pay the minimum fare and no guard ever pulled me up for it. It's only ticket offices/machines that enforce it in my experience, and it's a daft, unfair and overly complex rule anyway. The worst they could do is excess you, and what guard is going to bother with a £2 excess?

See the NFM for full details of minimum fare restrictions.

You can break your journey on all* walk-on fares so nothing to stop you getting off at Falkirk.

* There are some Off Peak fares - set by NXEC - which are valid on any train, but have a validity code - which is not publicly viewable when you purchase the ticket online, therefore not enforceable - which officially prohibits break of journey. In reality, you can break your journey and it is highly unlikely anyone would stop you, and even if they did it would never be upheld in a court, but IANAL.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No such thing as a stupid question, just stupid people!!

Ticket machines should all be programmed to issue tickets at the minimum fare until the restriction finishes at 1000hrs (mon-fri, not BH or in Jul and Aug), and yes, it applies to most tickets bought with the railcard (some journeys have exceptions).

You can break your journey at any intermediate station along a permitted route, unless the ticket restricts this. As a general rule, Advance tickets do not allow breaks of journey, except to connect to another service that you are booked on, 'walk up' fares are valid for breaks of journey, unless there is a specific restriction for the route (I can't think of any off-hand).

 

[rosscbrown]

That's great. So whenever I buy a Fastticket ticket in the morning, I don't have to be awake enough to check that it is doing things right

Another railcard question. The card has to be valid on the date you travel right, not the date that you buy the tickets. For example, when my last railcard was valid, I bought a return ticket, with the return portion valid for 30 days.

By the time I came to travel, my card had expired. Was the YP return ticket still valid? Tickets were not inspected so I don't know, but if it wasn't would I have just been charged an excess?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

A ticket discounted by a railcard is not valid for travel without a valid railcard being present at the time of travel.

It would be unusual to purchase a ticket before you have a railcard as you can only advance date a railcard if you already have one and then only to the day after the current one expires. Ticket offices should check your railcard before issueing the ticket, therefore this shouldn't be a possibility, but obviously it can't be done with self-service transactions.

 

[rail-britain]

You can break your journey on all* walk-on fares so nothing to stop you getting off at Falkirk

I was under the impression that since only all Glasgow - Edinburgh trains call at Falkirk High, then no splitting of tickets would be allowed on the OUT portion
However, you could do this if you travelled via Falkirk Grahamston
Equally, you could get off at Falkirk High, walk to Falkirk Grahamston, and recommence your journey there

As for splitting your return journey, there are no restrictions, expect for Advance Purchase

 

[yorkie]

As a general rule, Advance tickets do not allow breaks of journey, except to connect to another service that you are booked on,

That doesn't make sense. That's like saying you can't steal from a shop except when you pay for it! Changing trains is not a break of journey, therefore there is no 'except'.

You are only breaking your journey if you leave the station premises (NOT the same as going out a barrier), except if you are joining another train at another station, staying overnight if you can't complete the journey that night or following instructions by staff.

So changing trains is not breaking a journey. And barrier staff cannot stop you going through the barrier to use station facilities.

 

[me123]

I have in the past been allowed to break my journey quite a few times. I used to go Coatbridge Central-Edinburgh from time to time. This involved changing at Motherwell for a 45 minute(ish) connection. I usually left, went to Greggs for breakfast, and came back. I've never been stopped from doing this (there're "human" barriers). Only twice they tried to stop me and, when I explained what I was doing, and they said "OK then".

To be fair, though, Scotrail seem to be a bit more lenient when enforcing these kind of policies.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That doesn't make sense. That's like saying you can't steal from a shop except when you pay for it! Changing trains is not a break of journey, therefore there is no 'except'....

I am very aware of that, but I was just clarifying for those who were not aware of how it works.

 

[rail-britain]

You don't need to leave the station for it to be deemed a "break in journey"

I recently travelled Milton Keynes - Glasgow, on a return portion
I travelled on a Milton Keynes - Glasgow service, as far as Crewe
I then travelled on the next following Glasgow service
This is not possible on one Advance Purchase ticket, unless each separate journey is purchased

I suppose in terms of time you could be deemed to be leaving the station, for whatever reason, and then returning a short time later

 

[ian13]

That doesn't make sense. That's like saying you can't steal from a shop except when you pay for it! Changing trains is not a break of journey, therefore there is no 'except'.

You are only breaking your journey if you leave the station premises (NOT the same as going out a barrier), except if you are joining another train at another station, staying overnight if you can't complete the journey that night or following instructions by staff.

So changing trains is not breaking a journey. And barrier staff cannot stop you going through the barrier to use station facilities.

Some interchanges on advance tickets require changing stations (B'ham New St to Moor St is one I have done myself), but this is an allowed break of journey.

You don't need to leave the station for it to be deemed a "break in journey"

I recently travelled Milton Keynes - Glasgow
I travelled on a Milton Keynes - Glasgow service, as far as Crewe
I then travelled on the next following Glasgow service
This is not possible on one Advance Purchase ticket, unless each separate journey is purchased

I suppose in terms of time you could be deemed to be leaving the station, for wahtever reason, and then returning a short time later

That doesn't sound like a break of journey. It is prohibited as you are not travelling on the train you were booked on for the entire journey.

 

[glynn80]

Some interchanges on advance tickets require changing stations (B'ham New St to Moor St is one I have done myself), but this is an allowed break of journey.



That doesn't sound like a break of journey. It is prohibited as you are not travelling on the train you were booked on for the entire journey.

FRPP states the following:

Break of journey

Break of Journey, including starting or finishing a journey at an intermediate station between the origin and destination, is generally allowed as stated in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

Break of Journey is not available:-

· with Advance tickets issued from a quota;

· where the restriction code specifically restricts this;

· for any ticket with a validity shown as not available at intermediate stations;

· At London Underground (LU) stations other than at LU stations on a Train Company route where Train Company trains are scheduled to call, and subject to the general terms and conditions of the ticket permitting break of journey. EXAMPLE: with an Off-Peak Day Return from Luton to Brighton, break of journey is permitted at Kentish Town or Farringdon.

These conditions do not apply to:

1. Travelcards, which allow unlimited journeys within their zones of availability.

2. Journeys made on LU tickets between LU-controlled stations on inter-available routes.

Break of journey is always available for changing between trains and stations to continue the journey.



NRCOC defines break of journey as follows:

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company's or Rail Service Company's stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company's staff.

 

[Tom B]

Ticket machines should all be programmed to issue tickets at the minimum fare until the restriction finishes at 1000hrs

There must be some form of override surely? On many occasions I have bought a ticket for a train after 10am, before then, after explaining to the droid that I was intending to catch the 1024 but just wanted to buy my ticket in good time.

Ticket offices should check your railcard before issueing the ticket,

This seems to be very hit 'n' miss - on the occasions I've been asked to produce it I've simply said, I have it, it's at home, and I'll have it with me when I travel, never had a problem. Why ought the ticket office to check, though - since there are staff employed on-board to check that you have the right ticket and railcard?

I've broken my journey many times at Retford - since I would wait 40 minutes on a connecting train, and there are no facilities on the station, I don't see why I shouldn't go out to the corner shop over the road!

 

[yorkie]

Some interchanges on advance tickets require changing stations (B'ham New St to Moor St is one I have done myself), but this is an allowed break of journey.

It's defined as not actually being a break of journey.

 

[dan_atki]

There must be some form of override surely? On many occasions I have bought a ticket for a train after 10am, before then, after explaining to the droid that I was intending to catch the 1024 but just wanted to buy my ticket in good time.

When a fare is selected with the 16-25 discount in the restriction period the clerk has a dialogue come up prompting for whether or not the minimum fare should be applied to that ticket.

So, say I turned up at Doncaster ticket office at 0915 and ask for a 16-25 return to Peterborough. Clerk would select Peterborough (assuming they have it in their list of 'top' destinations) or type it in, select the 16-25 discount option, the system will check the time and suddenly say 'Do you want to apply the 16-25 Railcard minimum fare to this ticket? [Yes] [No]' or similar. The system then calculates the fare accordingly.

 

[djw1981]

There must be some form of override surely? On many occasions I have bought a ticket for a train after 10am, before then, after explaining to the droid that I was intending to catch the 1024 but just wanted to buy my ticket in good time.

By Machine was he in fact meaning TVM as opposed to a human operated ticket office machine / Advantix. the latter relying on the staff member.......

This seems to be very hit 'n' miss - on the occasions I've been asked to produce it I've simply said, I have it, it's at home, and I'll have it with me when I travel, never had a problem. Why ought the ticket office to check, though - since there are staff employed on-board to check that you have the right ticket and railcard?

Indeed, FSR staff at Queen St have before told me that it is only required for travel, not purchase.....when my sister was a student, my Mum used to by ticket at NCL, post them too my sister who used to travel on then from EDB to NCL. And my sister had her railcard. Mum used to by the tickets with no railcard present. Added to which my Mum was clearly out of the 16-25 Railcard age range!

 

[yorkie]

So, say I turned up at Doncaster ticket office at 0915 and ask for a 16-25 return to Peterborough. Clerk would select Peterborough (assuming they have it in their list of 'top' destinations) or type it in, select the 16-25 discount option, the system will check the time and suddenly say 'Do you want to apply the 16-25 Railcard minimum fare to this ticket? [Yes] [No]' or similar. The system then calculates the fare accordingly.

Does it appear for journeys like that, even though the fare is higher than the minimum? (that fare is £23.05; well over the £8.00 minumum)

 

[dan_atki]

To be completely honest - I don't know.

I'm only going on what I'm generally told about how TISs work which was the box appearing for the railcard. Now I could probably work it out but there is good cause for both answers:

Yes, so the system can safeguard the minimum fare at all times (even when the fare is way over the minimum).

No, because it is pointless as you've pointed out.

My fault for choosing an example with stations too far apart like that - but that's the gist of what happens with overriding the minimum.

 

[me123]

Indeed, FSR staff at Queen St have before told me that it is only required for travel, not purchase...

The view by passengers on the SPT network is that the railcard must be present for purchase, but not for travel. Mostly due to two reasons I would imagine:

• The vast majority of SPT tickets are for immediate travel; they are asked in this case to produce a railcard (which is fair enough)
• The on-train staff don't check tickets to the same extent as, say, Virgin

Of course, the SPT network has lots of TVMs. They don't need a railcard to be shown. I reckon you could travel on a 16-25 discount without a railcard quite easily in the SPT area...

 

[glynn80]

The conditions on the 16-25 website (http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/terms_conditions.htm) state the following:

5. Tickets for your journey should be purchased before boarding the train and when buying tickets you must show the Railcard.

I think the general consensus among ticket office staff is that the railcard need not be present if the ticket is being purchased in advance but I doubt many would issue a ticket valid for the same day it was purchased, without the railcard.

 

[First class]

To be completely honest - I don't know.

I'm only going on what I'm generally told about how TISs work which was the box appearing for the railcard. Now I could probably work it out but there is good cause for both answers:

Yes, so the system can safeguard the minimum fare at all times (even when the fare is way over the minimum).

No, because it is pointless as you've pointed out.

My fault for choosing an example with stations too far apart like that - but that's the gist of what happens with overriding the minimum.

Here on Merseyside on the FastTicket, a journey costing £3.90, Liv-Ctr on a yp railcard for a sdr automatically prices it at £16, despite a non-railcard journey being cheaper.

Also, the restriction is enforced by the machines here until 10:00AM exactly, which could be a pain for anyone travelling on a 10:01AM departure.

The machines also won't let you purchase an off-peak ticket (with Y7 restriction) before 6.30am, you have to buy of a human...

I wish self-service machines would let you put PRIV discounts through, get rovers/rangers and any period of season renewals.

 

[rosscbrown]

So, websites that sell tickets. How do they get away with selling tickets with the rail card not present. Surly there can't be a requirement on the rail card being present at time of purchase... just my two cents.

 

[glynn80]

So, websites that sell tickets. How do they get away with selling tickets with the rail card not present. Surly there can't be a requirement on the rail card being present at time of purchase... just my two cents.

I remember reading in a report that when online channels of sales were set up they were given certain dispensations by ATOC and I can only assume this is one of them.

 

[djw1981]

Of course, the SPT network has lots of TVMs. They don't need a railcard to be shown. I reckon you could travel on a 16-25 discount without a railcard quite easily in the SPT area...

Indeed, just as if traveling between non barriered stations, ticketless travel is easy........but getting harder!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the general consensus among ticket office staff is that the railcard need not be present if the ticket is being purchased in advance but I doubt many would issue a ticket valid for the same day it was purchased, without the railcard.

The latter of course, is common sense (thus ATOC will soon outlaw it) and I feel the above sentiment to be a very useful and pragmatic approach for staff to take.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Here on Merseyside on the FastTicket, a journey costing £3.90, Liv-Ctr on a yp railcard for a sdr automatically prices it at £16, despite a non-railcard journey being cheaper.

Surely then the onus is on the purchaser to 'not click the RC button'. On teh S&B FSR machines, in this scenario, it would (IIRC) say that a minimum fare of £16 applied with railcard, or £3.90 without, which option would you like... and then 2 buttons on the touchscreen! It's then your choice

 

[Tom C]

When a fare is selected with the 16-25 discount in the restriction period the clerk has a dialogue come up prompting for whether or not the minimum fare should be applied to that ticket.

Not on all TIS's

Certainly on SHERE and Advantix it is not the case, with SHERE you are given a list of fares which are red for minimum fare and black for otherwise and you have to make a choice. On Advantix there is a Min fare button which appears if you select Y-P as a discount. Both of these are not prompted and its down to the clerk to apply the min fare.

Does it appear for journeys like that, even though the fare is higher than the minimum? (that fare is £23.05; well over the £8.00 minumum)

No

As the fare is over the minimum fare there is no need to apply it so MIN would not appear. MIN or MAX (for AAA or Child PRIV's) will only appear if it is selected by the clerk.

So, websites that sell tickets. How do they get away with selling tickets with the rail card not present. Surly there can't be a requirement on the rail card being present at time of purchase... just my two cents.

When I was trained as a clerk (and I think I am right in saying that Hairyhandedfool was trained by the same person, Millwall fan?) we were told that the checking of discounts were down to the on train/revenue staff and that you should sell any ticket that you are asked for.

Of course, the SPT network has lots of TVMs. They don't need a railcard to be shown. I reckon you could travel on a 16-25 discount without a railcard quite easily in the SPT area...

Down here it is the exact opposite (or a least should be). Y-P's don't really need to be shown to buy a ticket but must be in the possession of the person whilst travelling otherwise its "no supporting document" in a PF area.

 

[djw1981]

It is the opposite in the SPT area. I think he was making the point that since you do not needto show a Y-P RC at point of purchase when using a TVM (though I guess a future smart card may require it), and the ticket checks are often cursory or may not occur if a short journey, then you may not be required to show it, thus could buy Y-P RC tickets and only have to pay the excess when caught.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Certainly on SHERE and Advantix it is not the case, with SHERE you are given a list of fares which are red for minimum fare and black for otherwise and you have to make a choice. On Advantix there is a Min fare button which appears if you select Y-P as a discount. Both of these are not prompted and its down to the clerk to apply the min fare....

Fastis will not list the minimum fare if it is more than the original fare, it will give the option for a fully discounted fare, but illustrates which trains it is not valid on.

....When I was trained as a clerk (and I think I am right in saying that Hairyhandedfool was trained by the same person, Millwall fan?) we were told that the checking of discounts were down to the on train/revenue staff and that you should sell any ticket that you are asked for....

I do seem to remember him being a Millwall fan, quite a few relatives in the company aswell, as I recall. He might have mentioned it, long time ago now, to be fair though most of the passengers were quite willing to show their railcards without asking. But the instructions up here were quite specific, infact I nearly got in hot water for not checking a railcard, when the passenger carried it on them almost religiously (apparently wearing a different coat that day!).

 

[janb]

This seems to be very hit 'n' miss - on the occasions I've been asked to produce it I've simply said, I have it, it's at home, and I'll have it with me when I travel, never had a problem. Why ought the ticket office to check, though - since there are staff employed on-board to check that you have the right ticket and railcard?

Exactly. You could show it to the booking office, but forget to take it on your journey. The responsibility to have it is the customers, and the responsibilty to check is the guards.

If the customer is travelling straight away I will insist on seeing it, but if they are buying in advance I won't push the point.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Not on all TIS's

Certainly on SHERE and Advantix it is not the case, with SHERE you are given a list of fares which are red for minimum fare and black for otherwise and you have to make a choice. On Advantix there is a Min fare button which appears if you select Y-P as a discount. Both of these are not prompted and its down to the clerk to apply the min fare.

On STAR you would select X to Y, Y-P, Get Fares, and then it will display the discounted fare and the minimum fare, and it is up to the operator to know which is correct (or neither if the undiscounted fare is cheaper than the minimum).