Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Chrisgr31]

8) Agree, particularly with regard to dispatch, I feel the second member of staff on a train should be moniroring the platform via cctv until the train is fully departed, with access ro an emergency brake, cutting out dragging incidents, which none of currently used dispatch procedures does.

This is something I think I suggested earlier in the thread. The reality is that once a guard or driver has made an error and someone is caught in the doors there is limited opportunity for the guard and no opportunity for the driver to become aware of it. The guard should either be able to see the outside of the train with CCTV or look out a window.

The current system relies on either the person caught in the doors dropping free, or someone on board the train realising something is wrong and using the alarm.

 

[Steveoh]

This is something I think I suggested earlier in the thread. The reality is that once a guard or driver has made an error and someone is caught in the doors there is limited opportunity for the guard and no opportunity for the driver to become aware of it. The guard should either be able to see the outside of the train with CCTV or look out a window.

The current system relies on either the person caught in the doors dropping free, or someone on board the train realising something is wrong and using the alarm.

Perhaps the CCTV can be sent back to GTR HQ and a director could authorise the dispatch. Maybe even the eminent Mr Horton himself.

 

[Fincra5]

GSM-R will be here long long long beyond 2020. The new core section will go over to ATO and in cab signalling is the future. GSM-R is integral to that system. The data sent to the train is is via GSM-R and other onboard systems. GSM-R is across the network.

I agree with you and I know humans are fallible. I do trust technology but I understand its limitations. I also know from personal experience how bad the railway is implementing it. They couldn't even get the rulebook right ffs.

You are also forgetting that Safety Critical systems are designed to be failsafe and are subject to stricter rules and regs. Take a look at the PIS complaints and you see how poor non safety critical systems are.

Understanding and accepting its limitations is very important. Putting all your eggs in one basket is not the best idea. GSM-R big red button is awesome.. but still failed. Not the first incident either. I personally missed a serious incident (by luck) and the Sig wanted to stop me in an emergency. The STOP message sent to my GSM-R failed and I continued. The Sig had to contact me "old school" to stop my train.

Trust the system, yes, that's my job. But I know its not perfect and will accept that. You seemingly cannot.

I've also had signals go back and missed a collision TWICE ! but I still put my faith in the signal system. (one was Signaller error) the other I have no idea and the Signaller just went silent.

We agree that we need BOTH technology and Staff.

I agree completely with that statement. Technology and Staff are both required. One without the other is flawed.

 

[Chrisgr31]

It has been mentioned that the underground is DOO. Thinking about it the most recently constructed line is the extension to the Jubilee line, and at a number (possibly all) of the new platforms have doors on the platform.

Why? Is it related to safety?

 

[Domh245]

It has been mentioned that the underground is DOO. Thinking about it the most recently constructed line is the extension to the Jubilee line, and at a number (possibly all) of the new platforms have doors on the platform.

Why? Is it related to safety?

The JLE's Platform edge doors are supposedly related to draught management. I can't remember the details, but it allowed them to save on costs to prevent the characteristic whoosh of air that you get when a tube enters a station

 

[AlterEgo]

It has been mentioned that the underground is DOO. Thinking about it the most recently constructed line is the extension to the Jubilee line, and at a number (possibly all) of the new platforms have doors on the platform.

Why? Is it related to safety?

A number of reasons.

Firstly it stops suicides in the station, as well as people inadvertently falling between the train and platform.

It also stops rubbish blowing onto the track which can cause delays, or short the live rails. Rubbish is also a fire risk.

It provides clear indication to passengers where the doors will stop.

Those are just a few of the reasons I can remember.

 

[highdyke]

GSM-R will be here long long long beyond 2020. The new core section will go over to ATO and in cab signalling is the future. GSM-R is integral to that system. The data sent to the train is is via GSM-R and other onboard systems. GSM-R is across the network.

http://www.railengineer.uk/2013/04/18/the-future-of-gsm-r-and-its-possible-replacement/

I agree with you and I know humans are fallible. I do trust technology but I understand its limitations. I also know from personal experience how bad the railway is implementing it. They couldn't even get the rulebook right ffs.

You are also forgetting that Safety Critical systems are designed to be failsafe and are subject to stricter rules and regs. Take a look at the PIS complaints and you see how poor non safety critical systems are.

The problem the railway is going to have is product cycles are getting shorter.

Understanding and accepting its limitations is very important. Putting all your eggs in one basket is not the best idea. GSM-R big red button is awesome.. but still failed. Not the first incident either. I personally missed a serious incident (by luck) and the Sig wanted to stop me in an emergency. The STOP message sent to my GSM-R failed and I continued. The Sig had to contact me "old school" to stop my train.

Well I don't think anyone is suggesting putting eggs in one basket!

Trust the system, yes, that's my job. But I know its not perfect and will accept that. You seemingly cannot.

I most definitely do, again, risk! No bridge or dam is risk free, no railway kit is, I could tell you things that would make your hair curl!

I've also had signals go back and missed a collision TWICE ! but I still put my faith in the signal system. (one was Signaller error) the other I have no idea and the Signaller just went silent.

Been there, done that, worn the T-Shirt several times. I know of at least 2 incidents where the signaller would most definitely of gone silent, because it wasn't supposed to happen. I'll PM them to you.

We agree that we need BOTH technology and Staff.

Indeed.

 

[43074]

On a lighter note, Southern have appeared on NewsThump (a spoof news outlet) again: http://newsthump.com/2016/07/27/southern-rail-to-replace-conductors-with-panthers/

Southern Rail to replace conductors with panthers

In a move that is sure to further enrage many passengers, beleaguered train company Southern Rail have announced that they will be replacing all conductors on trains with wild panthers.

“It is important that we continue to make efficiencies,” said Southern Rail chief and minion of Satan – Charles Horton.

“The problem with onboard train staff is that they need reasonable working conditions, consideration in the workplace…wages.

“Panthers don’t need any of that, they just need a ready supply of meat and our early morning commuter services are perfect for that.”

The introduction of onboard panthers continues a programme of changes made over the last ten weeks that includes replacing seats with spikes, putting CCTV in the toilets and sending footage to You’ve Been Framed, and employing an onboard operative to punch all passengers in the face.

Regular passengers weren’t quite sure what to make of the latest announcement.

“Panthers, eh?” said commuter Simon Williams, currently receiving treatment for PTSD after a particularly harrowing 40-hour commute from Streatham to London Victoria last week.

“Well, I suppose – upside, it’ll mean an end to the rambling, profane, and drunken customer service announcements, but downside, I might get mauled to death.”

Questioned as to whether the savings made from the introduction of panthers would be passed on to passengers, Mr Horton was quick to respond.

“Christ, No. I need a new car, so all the money will go towards that – a roller or a lambo or something.

“Otherwise I’d have to catch a train and the service round here is a scandal.”

Love the bit about Charles Horton being a ''minion of Satan'' seems entirely appropriate, and rather kind frankly.

 

[swt_passenger]

A number of reasons.

Firstly it stops suicides in the station, as well as people inadvertently falling between the train and platform.

It also stops rubbish blowing onto the track which can cause delays, or short the live rails. Rubbish is also a fire risk.

It provides clear indication to passengers where the doors will stop.

Those are just a few of the reasons I can remember.

They are all known benefits, but as the earlier poster stated the primary purpose was ventilation management in the stations. I saw a TfL explanation of this back when the extension was about to open.

 

[FordFocus]

http://www.railengineer.uk/2013/04/18/the-future-of-gsm-r-and-its-possible-replacement/

That article is 3 years out of the date. It got an extension to keep the technology supported until 2030 to allow 4G/LTE to roll out from 2023 and update it but is likely to be yet another generation behind (5G) once it's all updated. See http://www.railengineer.uk/2015/11/11/the-future-of-gsm-r/

NRN was an outdated system for many years and was well past its sell by date but lingered on until GSM-R became widespread. I don't think the TPE 185s had GSM-R completely fitted until late 2015 and had to use the NRN system.

I know how the GSM-R works for drivers (unlike an early poster and DSD alarms ) but not the specific technical details with regards to frequencies and packets. I was speaking to a Network Rail man on the western region and he said NR have concerns about when the majority of trains switch to ERTMS Level 2 because of network capacity overloading the signalling system. Other ongoing concerns include 4G from the public networks interfering with the cab to signaller comms. Possibility of costly filters needed to be installed on trains.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

5 Day strike just been announced by the RMT and they are balloting Station Staff. What A lovely company GTR must be to work for!

 

[DarloRich]

It is interesting BBC have turned the female COO of GTR into a man!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-36915027

Chief operating officer Dyan Crowther said all onboard staff had a job with no reduction in salary.

He said: "The sooner we can introduce the essential modernisation that our railways desperately need, the sooner we can stop the RMT from holding passengers to ransom.

"Contrary to the RMT's accusation, we have always been open to talks and remain so."

 

[AlterEgo]

5 Day strike just been announced by the RMT and they are balloting Station Staff. What A lovely company GTR must be to work for!

Or not work for, as it seems.

 

[43074]

The BBC report didn't mention the dates of the strike, which is taking place between 00:01 on Monday 8th August and 23:59 on Friday 12th August.

Link to the RMT's ''Press Release''
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/new-southern-strike-dates-announced/

 

[infobleep]

The BBC report didn't mention the dates of the strike, which is taking place between 00:01 on Monday 8th August and 23:59 on Friday 12th August.

Link to the RMT's ''Press Release''
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/new-southern-strike-dates-announced/

Have RMT had a change of personal I their communications department? That press release is actually well written.

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[physics34]

5 Day strike just been announced by the RMT and they are balloting Station Staff. What A lovely company GTR must be to work for!

can't imagine Guards being able to afford to do that..... maybe just a threat with the assumption that this will force GTRs hand.

 

[PHILIPE]

can't imagine Guards being able to afford to do that..... maybe just a threat with the assumption that this will force GTRs hand.

I don't think they will budge. GTR are being used to do the DFT's "dirty work".

 

[hwl]

can't imagine Guards being able to afford to do that..... maybe just a threat with the assumption that this will force GTRs hand.

RMT is offering strikers £200 but agree that many couldn't afford the loss of 5 days.

 

[physics34]

I don't think they will budge. GTR are being used to do th DFT's "dirty work".

yep. That Wilkinson fella needs to back down from his cranky ideas. I really hope the new Rail Minister sees the light and common sense.

 

[gavin]

Southern have called the 5-day strike by guards next month "unacceptable"

 

[PauloDavesi]

My sympathy is with the customers who won't receive the service they have paid for, who will have their lives inconvenienced and will miss out on valuable family time as a result of this unacceptable politically motivated strike.

I also have sympathy for the businesses who will suffer loss of productivity, disruption and are forced to let their customers down as a result of this activity.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

My sympathy is with the customers who won't receive the service they have paid for, who will have their lives inconvenienced and will miss out on valuable family time as a result of this unacceptable politically motivated strike.

What utter tosh. This strike is about Jobs and Safety Put the blame firmly at GTR and the Dft door like the majority of passengers have.

 

[Wolfie]

Southern have called the 5-day strike by guards next month "unacceptable"

I could say "ah diddums" - Mr Horton doesn't like it - tough! Seriously many people find the actions of him and his vile company unacceptable. He and GTR makes Mike Ashley and Philip Green look like model employers.....

My sympathy is with the customers who won't receive the service they have paid for, who will have their lives inconvenienced and will miss out on valuable family time as a result of this unacceptable politically motivated strike.

I also have sympathy for the businesses who will suffer loss of productivity, disruption and are forced to let their customers down as a result of this activity.

Ah the token Tory....

You may think all of that but you are in a VERY small minority!

I agree that it is a politically motivated strike, caused by a group of politicians who want their "maggie" moment. I realy hope that if they get their way and impose DOO regardless of safety concerns that the first death that can be attributed to that results in said politicians being banged up (in a high security prison not an open prison "country club") together with messrs Wilkinson and Horton. If the drivers face that risk it's only fair - they are taking the decisions and get the big bucks for that so....

 

[AlterEgo]

Seems like an odd time to have a strike - parliament is in recess and a lot of folks will be on holiday anyway.

 

[Wolfie]

Seems like an odd time to have a strike - parliament is in recess and a lot of folks will be on holiday anyway.

I guess they feel that it has to be before the GTR imposition date of 21 Aug and it can't be much if any earlier because of the notice period for strikes legally required.

Won't half screw up access to Gatwick though...

 

[tony6499]

Seems like an odd time to have a strike - parliament is in recess and a lot of folks will be on holiday anyway.

Fits in nicely with 2 Brighton FC home matches

 

[Antman]

What utter tosh. This strike is about Jobs and Safety Put the blame firmly at GTR and the Dft door like the majority of passengers have.

Whatever the rights and wrongs it's not the fault of customers or businesses that have suffered as a result so how is it utter tosh?

It's also rather presumptuous of you to make judgements about who the majority of passengers blame.

 

[Sadsmileyface]

Have RMT had a change of personal I their communications department? That press release is actually well written.

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Seriously? It switches from the third person to the first person in the very second paragraph and they continue to flipflop back and forth throughout.

Every single time I see anything from the RMT, I am always reminded of Michael Scott in The Office dictating a newpaper headline.

 

[Carlisle]

What utter tosh. This strike is about Jobs and Safety Put the blame firmly at GTR and the Dft door like the majority of passengers have.

Can you show us proof that the majority of Southern passengers back these strikes, I'd say that's probably unlikely to be the case but I'm willing to be corrected if you know otherwise ?

 

[infobleep]

Seriously? It switches from the third person to the first person in the very second paragraph and they continue to flipflop back and forth throughout.

Every single time I see anything from the RMT, I am always reminded of Michael Scott in The Office dictating a newpaper headline.

I wasn't looking at the grammar of it but the content in terms of message they need to get out. I. E. safety message and not fat cats message of old.

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