Scotrail Turbostars moving to Southern

[class387]

I saw 171402 at London Bridge this morning. It looked immaculate - is this one of the Scotrail conversions? Photo attached.

Yes, you can tell by the different headlights.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes, you can tell by the different headlights.

I suspected so, but I hadn't thought any were yet in service.

 

[class387]

171202 was the first to enter service on Monday. I hadn't thought that 171402 was in service untill I saw your photograph though.

 

[Chrisgr31]

171202 was the first to enter service on Monday. I hadn't thought that 171402 was in service untill I saw your photograph though.

Was it just being tested?
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Yes it was mentioned, but what level of rumour might that have been on a scale of 1 to 10?

Where 1 is the platform cat, and 10 is a TOC or Rosco rolling stock manager's signature?

What level is the agenda of a Crowborough Town Council meeting? http://www.crowboroughtowncouncil.g...tees/env/2016-2/1729-env-agenda-26-07-16/file 2nd page states that after the 4 new ones no more will be added as it is not financially viable and there is no depot space.

 

[swt_passenger]

What level is the agenda of a Crowborough Town Council meeting? http://www.crowboroughtowncouncil.g...tees/env/2016-2/1729-env-agenda-26-07-16/file 2nd page states that after the 4 new ones no more will be added as it is not financially viable and there is no depot space.

That's a good find, I'd say that must be about a 9+.

Finding the conversion is costly after completing a few is sort of understandable, but it's rather odd that they would find they'd run out of depot space after already taking 9 on lease...

 

[Class377/5]

That's a good find, I'd say that must be about a 9+.

Finding the conversion is costly after completing a few is sort of understandable, but it's rather odd that they would find they'd run out of depot space after already taking 9 on lease...

Selhurst is already a busy depot that's about to get even more busy. Can't give details yet but some re-arranging of stuff to to cascades meaning more diesels will push the depot over its max capacity.

 

[Deepgreen]

Was it just being tested?
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What level is the agenda of a Crowborough Town Council meeting? http://www.crowboroughtowncouncil.g...tees/env/2016-2/1729-env-agenda-26-07-16/file 2nd page states that after the 4 new ones no more will be added as it is not financially viable and there is no depot space.

Possibly, but it seems a bit risky to do so into London Bridge in the morning peak.

 

[swt_passenger]

Selhurst is already a busy depot that's about to get even more busy. Can't give details yet but some re-arranging of stuff to to cascades meaning more diesels will push the depot over its max capacity.

Reading between the lines here, I expect you are referring to the overall cascades resulting from likely changes in the plans for 377/x as a result of the recent changes to 387/1 deployment/ordering?

So the position regarding allocation and stabling at Selhurst has changed significantly since the original DMU plans were made, and something has had to give?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Reading between the lines here, I expect you are referring to the overall cascades resulting from likely changes in the plans for 377/x as a result of the recent changes to 387/1 deployment/ordering?

So the position regarding allocation and stabling at Selhurst has changed significantly since the original DMU plans were made, and something has had to give?

I'm guessing this is why a small fleet of IPEMU converted stock is being considered for Marshlink then, it potentially allows Southern to utilise the Class 171 units currently operating on the line on Uckfield services instead without having to acquire additional DMU stock on lease.

If the EMU fleet that Southern will have post Class 387 reshuffle and Class 377 movement can be stretched to cover Marshlink without materially requiring additional stock, then the battery pack leasing costs are probably not significantly different to the leasing costs of additional DMU stock, it might even be cheaper depending on how it all works out.

 

[hwl]

I'm guessing this is why a small fleet of IPEMU converted stock is being considered for Marshlink then, it potentially allows Southern to utilise the Class 171 units currently operating on the line on Uckfield services instead without having to acquire additional DMU stock on lease.

If the EMU fleet that Southern will have post Class 387 reshuffle and Class 377 movement can be stretched to cover Marshlink without materially requiring additional stock, then the battery pack leasing costs are probably not significantly different to the leasing costs of additional DMU stock, it might even be cheaper depending on how it all works out.

An extra 29x 4 car units but Southern will probably have to cover the Caterham and Tattenham Corner services and probaly sub lease a few extra 377s to SE so it should be do-able.

The Marshlink units also do quite bit of ECS milage going back to Selhurst to that might be significantly reduced with IPEMU.

In term of potential 377 units for conversion probably not the dual voltage /2s /5s /7s due to less space and more weight, Not the 5 cars /6s /7s due to 10 car metro use. Probably not 3 car /3s due to lack of space for batteries and being required for 3+3+4 to make 10 car metro. Which leaves /1s or /4s with some /1s pencilled into go to SE.

The question is whether the older 377s can be adapted as easily as new ones or 387s [or would a small batch of 387s be the easiest if there had been some abortive work done for GWRs units?]




Selhurst Full...

Additional sidings but this take time but is the crunch area heavier maintenance.

Stewart Lane how full these days?

Southern looking after the 377/1 going to SE?





Really crazy option joint effort with SE and run them beyond Ashford to CST/CHX?

 

[D365]

The Class 377 transfer to Southeastern still isn't confirmed, and is looking less likely since the Thameslink 2018 timetable recast now looks like it will be taking over Southeastern routes instead.

 

[hwl]

The Class 377 transfer to Southeastern still isn't confirmed, and is looking less likely since the Thameslink 2018 timetable recast now looks like it will be taking over Southeastern routes instead.

1. Read 377/5's recent posts on the subject. Hint more than 25 377/1s.

2. SE need more units for beginning of 2018 regardless of any potential TL service take overs, the question is just the number of extra units they need.

3. The TL via Greenwich is far from confirmed as they hadn't run the idea by NR or DfT in detail before showing the idea at the stakeholder conference. After the putting the 442s on the BML escapade ORR had recommendations about NR being able to veto any bright ideas that destroy the ability to produce and run to a viable timetable...

4. There isn't much time for that consultation left to start in July as promised hence GTR might have discovered a few issues...

 

[JamesRowden]

I'm guessing this is why a small fleet of IPEMU converted stock is being considered for Marshlink then, it potentially allows Southern to utilise the Class 171 units currently operating on the line on Uckfield services instead without having to acquire additional DMU stock on lease.

If the EMU fleet that Southern will have post Class 387 reshuffle and Class 377 movement can be stretched to cover Marshlink without materially requiring additional stock, then the battery pack leasing costs are probably not significantly different to the leasing costs of additional DMU stock, it might even be cheaper depending on how it all works out.

There is also the issue of the 7 minutes worth of CP5 Hastings-Ashford speed enhancements combined with the single track Ore-Appledore section. This combination means that the East Coastway timetable might need to change by the end of the GTR franchise to extract the full benefits of the upgrade. I expect that a decision on a future Marshlink service has to await an official decision with regards to the proposal to operate HS1 services along the Marshlink.

 

[physics34]

Selhurst is already a busy depot that's about to get even more busy. Can't give details yet but some re-arranging of stuff to to cascades meaning more diesels will push the depot over its max capacity.

please dont give anymore stock to Stewarts Lane....... the 455s have been awful since theyve maintained them!

I guess the 377/5s will be based at selhurst?
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How about the spare 365s to Southern to replace 455s.....?? Maybe thats a plan

 

[D365]

How about the spare 365s to Southern to replace 455s.....?? Maybe thats a plan

21 units is not going to be enough, unless you somehow combine with more Electrostars.

 

[Deepgreen]

Back to Turbostars - a ten car down formation passed my train at East Croydon this morning with 171202 and 171402 in the lead.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Back to Turbostars - a ten car down formation passed my train at East Croydon this morning with 171202 and 171402 in the lead.

I saw it too heading into Selhurst depot with 804 at the rear. I'm really out of touch with the Turbostars so need to catch up
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On the subject of Selhurst depot capacity, shame the old Norwood Down sidings fell into disuse, these could have been resurrected to stable a few additional units....

 

[Chrisgr31]

Back to Turbostars - a ten car down formation passed my train at East Croydon this morning with 171202 and 171402 in the lead.

I was on it this morning, sitting in 171402, the seating format is slightly different to the original 171s. The fabric on the seats also appears ruffled, almost as if it has expanded, then travelled on one of the 2 coach ones this evening. Again seats had that ruffled look. Except I was in the declassified first class which did not have that look. Also was empty with people standing in the foyer, think they thought it was first class.

 

[physics34]

I was on it this morning, sitting in 171402, the seating format is slightly different to the original 171s. The fabric on the seats also appears ruffled, almost as if it has expanded, then travelled on one of the 2 coach ones this evening. Again seats had that ruffled look. Except I was in the declassified first class which did not have that look. Also was empty with people standing in the foyer, think they thought it was first class.

I think the seat covers are new but the cushions themselves are not and are compressed/warn.

 

[physics34]

171401 was out yesterday (maybe for the first time).....

havent seen 171201 in service yet though.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Its just as well Southern have these extra units, as they have had so many 171 failures they wouldnt have any trains left! Have extra unita and cant match the original train lengths let alone the increaded ones!

 

[03_179]

171401 was out yesterday (maybe for the first time).....

havent seen 171201 in service yet though.

201 is still in the shed here as Selhurst

 

[tsr]

Its just as well Southern have these extra units, as they have had so many 171 failures they wouldnt have any trains left! Have extra unita and cant match the original train lengths let alone the increaded ones!

To be fair some, maybe most, of the issues with the 171s over the last couple of the weeks have been to do with the new ones having weird faults. Unfortunately it looks as if a bit too much reliance has been placed on having them in service!

171401 has had to have quite extensive examinations as it was required by controllers to return to depot on Tuesday after being heavily delayed by a series of faults and failures in the early hours of the morning. Meanwhile there have also been issues with all the units due to the mechanical-only cab doors (the original 171 variants have air-assisted cab doors which gain interlock much more easily). Lastly, at least one was withdrawn from service earlier this week due to loss of aircon in heatwave conditions (unfortunately the new 171 conversions do not have opening hopper windows, and they're pretty few and far between on the old ones anyway, so it can quickly become unsuitable for passengers in hot weather).

All most regrettable and something which all levels of operational staff are very much aware of - but probably a variant of the "bathtub curve" of reliability/failure for newly-introduced equipment.

 

[physics34]

201 is still in the shed here as Selhurst

its seems yesterday all of them had issues.
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To be fair some, maybe most, of the issues with the 171s over the last couple of the weeks have been to do with the new ones having weird faults. Unfortunately it looks as if a bit too much reliance has been placed on having them in service!

171401 has had to have quite extensive examinations as it was required by controllers to return to depot on Tuesday after being heavily delayed by a series of faults and failures in the early hours of the morning. Meanwhile there have also been issues with all the units due to the mechanical-only cab doors (the original 171 variants have air-assisted cab doors which gain interlock much more easily). Lastly, at least one was withdrawn from service earlier this week due to loss of aircon in heatwave conditions (unfortunately the new 171 conversions do not have opening hopper windows, and they're pretty few and far between on the old ones anyway, so it can quickly become unsuitable for passengers in hot weather).

All most regrettable and something which all levels of operational staff are very much aware of - but probably a variant of the "bathtub curve" of reliability/failure for newly-introduced equipment.

yeo, i had issues with 171402 and its air con last week. Like you say, without the windows one carriage was like an oven. There is no way people should be in there. UNfortunately the fitter i spoke too didnt really take it seriously and kept the train in service.

Drove 171402 today though and it was fine.

 

[D365]

yeo, i had issues with 171402 and its air con last week. Like you say, without the windows one carriage was like an oven. There is no way people should be in there. UNfortunately the fitter i spoke too didnt really take it seriously and kept the train in service.

I've been unlucky in finding quite a few different carriages without working air-con recently, so it's not a problem limited to a certain area.

 

[physics34]

I've been unlucky in finding quite a few different carriages without working air-con recently, so it's not a problem limited to a certain area.

companies need to up their game in hot weathr

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Meanwhile there have also been issues with all the units due to the mechanical-only cab doors (the original 171 variants have air-assisted cab doors which gain interlock much more easily).

I saw a clip on youtube of a 172 that had trouble gaining interlock, in that case the can door wasn't quite shut properly. Is there a microswitch in the doorway that only a properly closed door will close?

 

[physics34]

I saw a clip on youtube of a 172 that had trouble gaining interlock, in that case the can door wasn't quite shut properly. Is there a microswitch in the doorway that only a properly closed door will close?

yeh, you literally have to slam the door closed.

 

[47271]

Okay, Scotland's quite a bit cooler than a heatwave SE England but Scotrail 170s don't tend to have a lot of aircon problems in my daily experience (don't start me on their 158s) so I'm not sure why they're giving so much trouble now.

 

[scotraildriver]

Okay, Scotland's quite a bit cooler than a heatwave SE England but Scotrail 170s don't tend to have a lot of aircon problems in my daily experience (don't start me on their 158s) so I'm not sure why they're giving so much trouble now.

Or cab door interlock problems. Never had a problem in 16 years!