GWR/BR(WR) Loco Uses

[TheEdge]

Something I'm struggling to fully understand so looking for some help.

I've always assumed the crack expresses of the GWR/WR was always the domain of the Kings and Castles and branch services were for the Prairies, Panniers and Autotanks.

What about the rest? Cross country services and long distance stoppers (e.g. Plymouth - Exeter), what sort of loco would they get? Were the likes of the Halls, Granges, Manors, Counties fairly interchangeable (barring the Manor on lighter routes) in their duties?

And freight locos, were the 28xx family ubiquitous on freights or did they stick to the mineral trains with the mixed traffic 4-6-0s on faster lighter freights?

 

[Harbornite]

Single manors or pairs of them were used to haul the Cambrian Coast express between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth and Pwllheli. Kings would have hauled the train as far as Wolverhampton or Shrewsbury. On the GWML, I don't think Kings were used past Plymouth due to their weight.

 

[TheEdge]

The expresses I'm okay with, there's lots of photos and write ups on them. Things like the Cambrian and Royal Albert Bridge weight issues are well known.

Its the rarely photoed "normal" services, the all shacks stopped from Plymouth to Exeter for example. Looking at Carriage Working Plans they seem to have mostly been rostered as 4 or 5 coach formations. It seems like they are too long distance and arduous for a tank engine (except maybe the large prairies) but too light to demand the power of a big 4-6-0.

 

[Harbornite]

What I do know is that Birmingham local services were 56xxs and likely 41xxs as well, with auto trains and GWR railcars for services to Dudley via Old Hill and Bumble Hole.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

What I do know is that Birmingham local services were 56xxs and likely 41xxs as well, with auto trains and GWR railcars for services to Dudley via Old Hill and Bumble Hole.

Some of the more classy trains out to Leamington and Stratford had Hall class engines ......

 

[Cowley]

I think the Grange class were used quite a lot in the south west on secondary passenger and freight as they were excellent hill climbers, Counties too and they were also used on expresses. Some of the local trains were in the hands of large Prairies and 2-6-0s like the 73XX class, of course summer Saturdays could produce all kinds of things including 47XX class locos. It's worth looking on the Cornwall Railway Society site as there's some excellent old photos on there.

 

[30907]

Its the rarely photoed "normal" services, the all shacks stopped from Plymouth to Exeter for example. Looking at Carriage Working Plans they seem to have mostly been rostered as 4 or 5 coach formations. It seems like they are too long distance and arduous for a tank engine (except maybe the large prairies) but too light to demand the power of a big 4-6-0.

Offhand: post war there were two return workings daily diagrammed for SR light Pacifics (route retention purposes) and 2 returns on the LSW route diagrammed for 43xx. However, that's because nothing heavier was allowed over Meldon. Not being old enough to remember, I would hazard a guess at Halls for the whole route, perhaps 61xx for Torbay stoppers.

 

[Harbornite]

Some of the more classy trains out to Leamington and Stratford had Hall class engines ......

Halls and even Kings occasionally turned up on shorter distance locals in the Birmingham area as steam declined between 1964 and 1966, following the introduction of DMUs in 1957.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Offhand: post war there were two return workings daily diagrammed for SR light Pacifics (route retention purposes) and 2 returns on the LSW route diagrammed for 43xx. However, that's because nothing heavier was allowed over Meldon. Not being old enough to remember, I would hazard a guess at Halls for the whole route, perhaps 61xx for Torbay stoppers.

There was an article in the railway magazine about a chap who spent 13 or so hours at Exeter St Davids on a summer saturday in 1956. I should dig it out.

 

[Taunton]

The general main line stoppers did indeed have a range of power, sometimes whatever the foreman had to hand. Taunton to Bristol stoppers, which I can just remember before the dmus took over, were most commonly a Hall, but if all Taunton's quite large allocation had gone out on overnight freights a 41xx would substitute. However on the Exeter stopper a 43xx was the norm, arriving at Taunton on the Up Relief such trains were indistinguishable from a Barnstaple arrival. Part of the interest was that you never quite knew what was going to turn up on main line locals. Castles were by no means unknown on the stoppers.

Taunton to Minehead was normally a Prairie, either a 45xx, 41xx, or 82xxx (the less said about the crew's comments to the foreman when they got one of the latter, the better) but a Pannier probably substituted one or more services per day. Taunton, like many GW depots, had a few of each type, we even got some 61xx sent down from London towards the end, which were indeed favourites for their power. Barnstaple was almost always a 43xx, a couple of Taunton's would outstation overnight at Barnstaple, but if for any reason one was failed overnight a Southern N would turn up, a not unknown sight at Taunton. 31840 seems to stick in my memory as having made repeated visits. It also wasn't unknown for the N to continue down the Yeovil line, normally 41xx territory.

The 28xx were used on various through freights, one of the notable things about them, and it was even more pronounced with the 47xx, was that they were often on shed all day and not seen, but would all turn out overnight. I recall a magazine article noting that the entire 47xx fleet was on shed at 3pm, and equally the entire fleet was out on the line 12 hours later. One of the 28xx's special turns was the "loco coal" which ran every week or two, servicing the "83" loco depots, Taunton being the nearest 83 depot would pick it up at Severn Tunnel Junction and work it through, dropping a few coal wagons at each shed.

 

[TheEdge]

So it sounds like, with the exception of the Kings which seem sacred up until dieselisation, the 4-6-0s were fairly interchangable on main line stoppers, but I assume Castles would be rarer than the others?

So freight wise, again, I'm guessing the 4-6-0s could appear on anything with very few trains that were always in the hands of specialist freight locos? Also, that loco coal train sounds interesting, you know where I can get anymore info on it?

 

[Cowley]

The 28xx were used on various through freights, one of the notable things about them, and it was even more pronounced with the 47xx, was that they were often on shed all day and not seen, but would all turn out overnight. I recall a magazine article noting that the entire 47xx fleet was on shed at 3pm, and equally the entire fleet was out on the line 12 hours later. One of the 28xx's special turns was the "loco coal" which ran every week or two, servicing the "83" loco depots, Taunton being the nearest 83 depot would pick it up at Severn Tunnel Junction and work it through, dropping a few coal wagons at each shed.

Would 28xx's ever turn up on passenger turns in summer due to loco shortages or would their wheel size completely count that out?

 

[TheEdge]

I know the 47xx's saw fairly regular use on holiday relief. And my grandad has a favourite story of finding a very tired looking 28xx that had been making excellent time on the head of a passenger service at Paddington. Evidence seems that 28xx's were used but were less than desirable.

 

[Cowley]

That's great. My father remembers the queue of steam trains along the sea wall on a summer Saturday at all the various signals waiting to come into Dawlish or Teignmouth station while he was building sandcastles on the beach in the 50s. I remember doing the same in the late 70s early 80s but it was Peaks and 50s by then. Would have loved to have seen the steam though.

 

[Harbornite]

The general main line stoppers did indeed have a range of power, sometimes whatever the foreman had to hand. Taunton to Bristol stoppers, which I can just remember before the dmus took over, were most commonly a Hall, but if all Taunton's quite large allocation had gone out on overnight freights a 41xx would substitute. However on the Exeter stopper a 43xx was the norm, arriving at Taunton on the Up Relief such trains were indistinguishable from a Barnstaple arrival. Part of the interest was that you never quite knew what was going to turn up on main line locals. Castles were by no means unknown on the stoppers.

Taunton to Minehead was normally a Prairie, either a 45xx, 41xx, or 82xxx (the less said about the crew's comments to the foreman when they got one of the latter, the better) but a Pannier probably substituted one or more services per day. Taunton, like many GW depots, had a few of each type, we even got some 61xx sent down from London towards the end, which were indeed favourites for their power. Barnstaple was almost always a 43xx, a couple of Taunton's would outstation overnight at Barnstaple, but if for any reason one was failed overnight a Southern N would turn up, a not unknown sight at Taunton. 31840 seems to stick in my memory as having made repeated visits. It also wasn't unknown for the N to continue down the Yeovil line, normally 41xx territory.

The 28xx were used on various through freights, one of the notable things about them, and it was even more pronounced with the 47xx, was that they were often on shed all day and not seen, but would all turn out overnight. I recall a magazine article noting that the entire 47xx fleet was on shed at 3pm, and equally the entire fleet was out on the line 12 hours later. One of the 28xx's special turns was the "loco coal" which ran every week or two, servicing the "83" loco depots, Taunton being the nearest 83 depot would pick it up at Severn Tunnel Junction and work it through, dropping a few coal wagons at each shed.

As usual, an informative post. Thanks.

 

[Taunton]

Surprisingly there were few "mineral" goods through Taunton in those times, the majority of freights, even on the main line, were mixed. There was a lot of mineral traffic down the line, at a time when most houses, businesses, gasworks and power stations still used coal, there wasn't a lot to come back in Opens so there was a good amount of empties going back.

Also, that loco coal train sounds interesting, you know where I can get anymore info on it?

I believe it wasn't in the freight timetable, it just ran on Control orders when needed. It was likely organised by the Locomotive Department rather than the Running Department. My hunch would be that the other 8 WR loco districts had similar arrangements. The most spectacular thing was what happened after it had left, for one of the station pilots, in a mid-morning lull, would come to shunt the coal stage. As may still be seen at Didcot, this had a ramp of about 1 in 10 up to the top, and I'm sure the one at Taunton was steeper than that at Didcot. There wasn't much space behind to get a run at it, but a sudden blast of full regulator and the Pannier, pushing maybe two coal wagons, would go for it, generally losing it's footing towards the top with a roar that could be heard across half the town. If they didn't make it, back down and try again, they never closed the regulator until there was definitely no more forward motion. Sparks from the wheels? Definitely. Some crews were better at it than others. As you can imagine it was enhanced if it was raining! Of course once over the top there was space for a few wagons, and then the bufferstops, which had progressively acquired a revised shape over time from the opposite situation, coming over the top a bit better than anticipated.

The Western also had a substantial network of part-fitted fast freights, generally overnight, for which the Halls were first choice, and which the few 47xx spent most of their time on. Granges were a bit rough riding at speed, they were fine with their smaller wheels west of Newton Abbot, and common in Cornwall, but you wouldn't want one up to Bristol or London.

One of the Taunton pilots was also often a Hall, alongside the Panniers, because if anything needed substituting all of a sudden, a Hall was pretty much go-anywhere. 4932 Hatherton Hall was sufficiently often on this duty that there must have been some reason for it.

There weren't enough Kings to go round properly, they were apparently (dim recollection of descriptions) notably more powerful even than they would have appeared on paper, and equally a far greater challenge for the fireman. It apparently really showed it climbing Whiteball, west of Taunton, a Castle might be under 40mph at the top where a King would go over at 60. Although Taunton never had them on allocation, they did a lot of work on them being a good halfway crew-change point between Paddington and Plymouth; the Western had few lodging turns, and Taunton to Paddington or to Plymouth and back, on a loco from either end's depot, was a good day's work in a single shift on a steam loco, I think they got good mileage payments for such turns.

There weren't a lot of 28xx around in the daytime, but I'll just add that the very last "proper" (ie non-railtour) steam service I ever saw there was one. There was a train of Presflo cement wagons which came I believe from around Westbury from time to time, generally with a Warship, but one lazy summer afternoon, likely 1965, all the down main boards had come off, and through at a considerable speed came a 38xx, very much linked up and with such short exhaust beats it almost sounded like a diesel ... I can still recall it passing me at the old footbridge west of the station with that curious exhaust note, heading off westwards and vanishing under Staplegrove Road bridge. And that, little though I realised at the time, was the end of steam at Taunton.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I remember doing the same in the late 70s early 80s but it was Peaks and 50s by then.

Class 25's, 31's and 33's also ran during that period if I remember correctly. I certainly remember seeing class 33's at Bristol Bath Road in the early 1980's and I'm pretty certain that I saw class 25's running along the sea wall in the mid 1970's.

 

[Bevan Price]

I was on a family hoilday in Devon circa 1960, just after Class 42 Warships were built. Most traffic was still steam. West Country branch lines were mostly 4500 class or Pannier tanks, or 1400 class 0-4-2T - the latter often on one coach "auto trains" (push-pull).

Only a few Kings were seen in use. Most of the (non-diesel) express services would be a Castle, County or Hall. Secondary passenger services would be a Hall, Grange, 4300 class 2-6-0, or a 4100/5100 class prairie tank.

Further north, at Chester, I saw Castles, Counties or Halls on services from Shrewsbury/Paddington (Kings did not normally work north of Wolverhampton Low Level).

Chester to Birkenhead workings were shared by ex GWR & LMSR locos, the GW locos being mainly 4100 class prairies. 4700 class worked an overnight freight between London & Birkenhead, the loco then spending most of the day on Birkenhead shed. 4300 class 2-6-0 also appeared, mainly on freight I think.

Ruabon to Barmouth, and Cambrian coast lines west of Shrewsbury were mostly shared by Manors and BR standard classes (75000, 78000, 80000, 82000 classes, for example). Freights and some light passenger services might use a 2251 Class 0-6-0.

 

[Cowley]

Fascinating stuff Taunton and Beven thank you.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Class 25's, 31's and 33's also ran during that period if I remember correctly. I certainly remember seeing class 33's at Bristol Bath Road in the early 1980's and I'm pretty certain that I saw class 25's running along the sea wall in the mid 1970's.

I saw a 25 across the river at Bideford once when I was a kid, probably about 1981, a common occurrence then but not for much longer.

 

[70014IronDuke]

My experience in what might be called 'nearly full' steam days was limited to Goring (ie between Reading and Didcot) in late 61 (just a few hours) 1962 – 66, by which time, of course, it was fully diesel. Plus a few visits to Reading/Didcot.

Referring to early 1962, there were only Warships (D8xx type) on the main line. D6xx types were already Plymouth area only, I think. Maybe D1000 came out in 1961, but I didn't see it in sand colour – but I do remember seeing D1002 off works in green. I guess that would have been May or so, 62. It was running light.

My recollection (sorry, lost all the spotting books) was:

I saw not one King working (sob). I think the Kings were largely restricted to PDN – Wolves and West of England trains. Whatever, I never even saw one, even when I went to Reading.

I think most of the scheduled expresses were Castles or D8xx. I can't be sure, but sometimes Halls (or Modified Halls) – were used on summer extras.

Counties were quite scarce (two were at Didcot, but I think they worked the early morning commuter trains, and back after I'd gone home for tea.!)

Granges too, were not common at all, and Manors at that time – well, I never saw one. My impression was that these were kept for the restricted routes in Wales - Cambrian and maybe some in the south.

The relief lines were pretty heavily used, either with local DMU workings or goods. All local workings were DMU by 1962 except, for some strange reason, a Sunday up train (it's a long time ago, I think it was about 10.30 through Goring) which was a Banbury 41xx tank. This returned from Reading at around 12.25 (ex Reading) IIRC. I caught it once and we 'raced' a D8xx Warship starting away from Reading on the fast.

Good traffic was especially heavy in the evening, around 20.00. I think most goods was 28xx, maybe 43xx Moguls and Halls. I don't think we got any of the tanks, neither the big ones (eg 72xx) or the o-6-2Ts (56xx, 66xx) – except sometimes from the Banbury direction, perhaps.
I did see some of the 47xx though, I assume these were on fast freights towards Bristol in the evenings, but can't swear to it. But they were not common.

By late 1963-64, things were changing. Diesels displaced Castles, of course, but funnily enough, I think Counties became a bit more common (even as steam was being replaced), I certainly remember seeing 1000, 1010 and 1011. I can't remember Granges becoming more common, but Manors certainly began to appear now and then – some were shedded at Reading, and one (was it Frilford?) had GWR on the tender. It was sometimes station pilot at Reading, facing Paddington.

I assume the Manors arrival was because, eg the Cambrian was “LMSed” with Standard 4s, and the WR did not want to just scrap the 78xx en mass.

Sad to say, I can't really recollect how steam was replaced on freight. I do remember that D63xx were rare, very rare, at Goring in the early days, but then became quite common, probably around 1966.

The memory is muddied, because by around 65 I think GWR steam on the WR workings was dead – but steam seemed alive and well, at least in summer, because of the increased number of inter-regional trains with Bulleid pacific haulage from Bournemouth/Poole. Some Saturdays there seemed to be 4 or 5 such workings, which livened up the day no end.

When I first went to Reading, I think it was a Sunday around Easter 62, the shed was stuffed – from memory there were about 70 locos there, almost all steam, from Castles and Halls via 43xx and 28xx to pannier tanks. There may even have been the odd 14xx, not sure now. (That may have been Banbury.)

I remember going again in to Reading shed, I think, early January 1965, and there were just 3 or 4 steam in store. The Berkshire paper (Reading Mercury?) that week had a photo of these being towed away from the shed – I think it was around noon on the very Sunday I had been there.

 

[Taunton]

It does seem to have been GW and WR policy to have a few of each type at a depot. This was not the fitter's nightmare that might be first thought, because from Churchward's time through to the end of construction of GW types in the early 1950s there was considerable standardisation of parts, and a number of later GW types were just various combinations of earlier components, and items such as spring plates, piston rings or footplate fittings which needed regular replacement had long been standardised. In part this was why the Standards, when they arrived, were particularly disliked on the Western, quite apart from the fact that they had issues that Churchward had cracked 50 years beforehand, everything was just different - starting with being driven from the opposite side of the footplate to that which the WR signals were laid out for (if the 1955 Milton accident report had been less obsequious then Standards would have been banned from the WR forthwith).

 

[Bevan Price]

If you can find a copy of BR Steam Motive Power Depots - Western Region (Book Law Publications) by Paul Bolger, that shows depot allocations of steam locos, usually for 1950, 1959 and just before closure. Of course, each area was visited by locos from other depots, but the allocations will give a good idea of which locos worked in an area.

So -in 1959, Devon & Cornwall depots had a lot of Granges, others were in the Bristol area, West Midlands & South Wales, but Old Oak Common had none - the nearest allocations were at Oxford & Banbury.

In 1959, Manors were common on Cambrian lines & West Wales (e.g. Oswestry, Shrewsbury, Carmarthen depots) . Didcot got a few by 1965, but they were not common in the London area.

 

[Cowley]

I can't imagine how many locos there must have been to spot in those days. Did you folks that were around back then ever come across people that had cleared BR? Or even particular regions?

 

[Harbornite]

It does seem to have been GW and WR policy to have a few of each type at a depot. This was not the fitter's nightmare that might be first thought, because from Churchward's time through to the end of construction of GW types in the early 1950s there was considerable standardisation of parts, and a number of later GW types were just various combinations of earlier components, and items such as spring plates, piston rings or footplate fittings which needed regular replacement had long been standardised. In part this was why the Standards, when they arrived, were particularly disliked on the Western, quite apart from the fact that they had issues that Churchward had cracked 50 years beforehand, everything was just different - starting with being driven from the opposite side of the footplate to that which the WR signals were laid out for (if the 1955 Milton accident report had been less obsequious then Standards would have been banned from the WR forthwith).

Wasn't Cardiff Canton an exception to this, because they actually liked their Britannias?

 

[TheEdge]

What would be the "smallest" locos you would see on long distance express services? Not the named ones but the secondary long distance stopping ones? Anything smaller than a Hall? Even as small as a Manor?

 

[FGW_DID]

Have a read of the books by Harold Gasson (Firing Days, Footplate Days & Nostalgic Days??) who used to be a Fireman at Didcot, that will give you a good idea of what used to work the 'everyday' passenger and goods trains radiating out from Didcot in the 40s/50s.

 

[Taunton]

What would be the "smallest" locos you would see on long distance express services? Not the named ones but the secondary long distance stopping ones? Anything smaller than a Hall? Even as small as a Manor?

The Cambrian Coast Express had a Manor from Shrewsbury to Pwllheli. Couldn't have anything larger.

The Cheltenham Spa Express, fastest train in Britain in the 1930s (from Swindon to Paddington) started off from Cheltenham behind a 45xx tank. It had to reverse at Gloucester and was a Castle from there, It was a very limited formation, only about 7 coaches, which suited the high speed dash but also the use of a tank on the first leg.

The truth is that before the 1960s there weren't a lot of secondary services at all. There were the major expresses, mainly from Paddington, and there were the all stations stoppers, generally from one major point to the next, and that was it. Semi-fasts are a relatively recent innovation. Outside summer Saturdays there were only a handful of through NE-SW services, the Devonian from Bradford to Paignton, and the Cornishman from Wolverhampton LL to Penzance (and thus on Western tracks all the way), and little else. We started to go between Taunton and Liverpool, there was just one practical day service a day, via Hereford. By the time we first used it, it was a Warship to Crewe, but had previously been a Castle, one of the few Western lodging turns, a Newton Abbot crew worked to Shrewsbury and came back next day. One other service category was a notable number of daily overnight services, generally Castle (and later Western) hauled because they could be notably heavy with mail and parcels as well as much seating accommodation.

 

[coppercapped]

Wild Swan Publishing issue a printed quarterly journal called the "Great Western Journal" which covers all sorts of such workings. I'm sure you can buy back copies and/or find library copies.

Over the years it has covered all sorts of fascinating by-ways in the lore of the GW.

 

[TheEdge]

Well this is interesting and really is letting me ask questions to those that know. This is all for Railsimulator and trying to built realistic scenarios.

So, next thing is about adding and detaching portions. I've got the an early formation for the Mayflower (from 1955, so I know a tad early but still the 0830 Plymouth - Paddington), 4 coaches from Paignton and 7 from Plymouth. The Plymouth portion has a Slip for Reading as its last vehicle so obviously has to be the last vehicle after attaching the Paignton portion at Newton Abbot. The order of the carriage working plan also gives the 4 Paignton coaches as leading the formation.

So how would this sort of thing be done? The Paignton portion is timed to arrive (0915) at Newton Abbot about 6 minutes before the Plymouth one (0921). The whole train is meant to leave at 0930. Would the loco from Plymouth detach from its train, shunt to collect the Paignton portion and then back that onto the Plymouth portion? Or would the Plymouth loco shunt out the way, the Paignton loco (or a pilot) back that portion onto the Plymouth one and then the Plymouth loco reattach? Or would the Paignton loco take the whole thing on?

 

[Bevan Price]

Well this is interesting and really is letting me ask questions to those that know. This is all for Railsimulator and trying to built realistic scenarios.

So, next thing is about adding and detaching portions. I've got the an early formation for the Mayflower (from 1955, so I know a tad early but still the 0830 Plymouth - Paddington), 4 coaches from Paignton and 7 from Plymouth. The Plymouth portion has a Slip for Reading as its last vehicle so obviously has to be the last vehicle after attaching the Paignton portion at Newton Abbot. The order of the carriage working plan also gives the 4 Paignton coaches as leading the formation.

So how would this sort of thing be done? The Paignton portion is timed to arrive (0915) at Newton Abbot about 6 minutes before the Plymouth one (0921). The whole train is meant to leave at 0930. Would the loco from Plymouth detach from its train, shunt to collect the Paignton portion and then back that onto the Plymouth portion? Or would the Plymouth loco shunt out the way, the Paignton loco (or a pilot) back that portion onto the Plymouth one and then the Plymouth loco reattach? Or would the Paignton loco take the whole thing on?

One of the Newton Abbot station pilots would shunt the Paignton (or Kingswear) portions onto the rear of trains from Penzance / Plymouth. This was a Class 03 (D2129) or 08 (D3511) diesel circa 1960 during my holidays, but presumably a Pannier Tank before the diesels arrived.

 

[Taunton]

Now I seem to recall the Paignton portions were at the London end. Added in front on the Up journey, and left behind on the Down when the Plymouth portion left. I never saw the attach, but there were mid-platform crossovers with the outside lines in both directions, so the most straightforward way would be Torbay portion arrives first, Plymouth comes in behind. Loco moves forward via the crossover, front pushes back and couples.

Through loco from Paignton rather than Plymouth ? Don't forget that Newton loco had a substantial main line allocation, in 1950 they had 12 Castles to Laira's 16, and even when the Warships and D63xx came along, their allocation was equally divided between Laira and Newton.

The Western seemed to favour adding portions to the front going Up to Paddington which could be left behind on the Down journey. The same approach was done at Oxford where through services from Worcester used to have extra vehicles (either from Birmingham or locally strengthened) added for the onward trip to London.