Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Deepgreen]

if thats about detonators being deployed on the down line to stop the ECS being involved in the collision, it all happened simultaneously within a few seconds of the initial collision, so wouldve been impossible for dets to have been placed down in time.

People tend to stand up anyway on approach to a terminus station even when trains are not busy so its a little bit of folly. The one death was really as a result of the poor structural integrity of the SR-type EPBs.

Not sure ive posted this a bit out of context, but ive added my view anyway

Absolutely, which is why I wrote; "if it had been possible to deploy them in time".

 

[physics34]

Absolutely, which is why I wrote; "if it had been possible to deploy them in time".

yeh cheers

 

[infobleep]

Southern passengers confront rail boss over service problems

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...tation?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

From The Guardian:

Southern passengers confront rail boss over service problems
Commuters meet chief executive Charles Horton at London Victoria station to voice their frustration at delays and cancellations
Charles Horton meets Southern passengers
Charles Horton, the chief executive of Govia Thameslink Railway, meets passengers at London Victoria station. Photograph: Scott D'Arcy/PA
Press Association
Published: 10:04 BST Thu 21 July 2016
Commuters have met the chief executive of train operator Southern at London Victoria station to express their frustration with its service.

Charles Horton, who heads Southern’s parent company, Govia Thameslink Railway, faced anger from passengers on Thursday morning at a “meet the managers” event.

There have been months of disruption on Southern routes, which are some of the busiest in the country, and include lines between London and the south coast, East Sussex, West Sussex and Surrey.

All aboard the Southern chaos train: the commuters caught in a war on rails
Horton has also come under pressure from MPs and met the new rail minister, Paul Maynard, to discuss the problems on Monday. Claire Perry stepped down as rail minister last week.

Passengers who attended the event had been very honest, Horton said, and he had apologised to many of them. “They reflected their frustration with the service over the last few weeks,” he said. “Our customers are very reasonable and very patient.”

Earlier this month, Southern cancelled 341 trains a day when it introduced an emergency timetable aimed at providing a more reliable service.

Diana Vetesse, 52, from Billingshurst, West Sussex, was among those who confronted Horton, complaining that delays to the service had meant she once missed her son’s nativity play. “I’m generally frustrated and I was saying there’s an occasion where I did not manage to get home,” she said.

“They were very nice [at the event] and actually for me, the trains have been working better, but overall I think it’s appalling. We are paying so much for tickets and it’s so unreliable.”

Southern Rail protest at Victoria station in London earlier this month
Southern Rail protest at Victoria station in London earlier this month. Photograph: Matthew Chattle/Rex/Shutterstock
Rona Hunnisett, 40, a charity worker who commutes from Brighton to London Victoria every day, attended the event on her way to work but was left shaking her head after meeting a manager responsible for quality control.

She said that when she asked for a definitive time by when services would improve, she only received “waffle and more evasion”. “I’m sick of the constant excuses and blame,” she said. “It’s never their fault, it’s always somebody else’s fault.”

Hunnisett said she felt “physically scared for the first time in 20 years of commuting” on Monday night during severe congestion at Brighton station.

“I pay them £4,000 a year for a service and I don’t get it,” she said. “I don’t think there is any excuse in this day and age to take that kind of money and not provide a service or a meaningful compensation package.”

Navneet Jha, 32, an IT contractor who commutes from South Croydon to London Victoria, claimed Southern was “exploiting” passengers by making the refund process for delays cumbersome and running trains with fewer carriages than normal, which means people are left on platforms, unable to board.

He said he was told by a Southern manager that “all the problems will go in a month”. But following the meeting, he said: “I highly doubt that.”

Jha described his first five and a half years of commuting on Southern trains as pleasant but said of the past six months: “Things have gone haywire.”

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[JamesTT]

Any update on East, West Coast and Arun Valley not being signed off as suitable for DOO(P)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Regarding disabled passengers does it not state on the company website about booking 24 hours in advance? yes pain in the proverbial and I would not want to be in that situation and I sympathise and empathise. However if that had contravened the DDA would Southern not have been pulled up and told that they could not tell disabled passengers they need to book 24 hours ahead if assistance was required? As far as I am aware the official assisted travel system will still be in place.

 

[AlterEgo]

Any update on East, West Coast and Arun Valley not being signed off as suitable for DOO(P)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Regarding disabled passengers does it not state on the company website about booking 24 hours in advance? yes pain in the proverbial and I would not want to be in that situation and I sympathise and empathise. However if that had contravened the DDA would Southern not have been pulled up and told that they could not tell disabled passengers they need to book 24 hours ahead if assistance was required? As far as I am aware the official assisted travel system will still be in place.

24 hours is not a requirement, it's a recommendation. The railway must accommodate disabled passengers (within reasonable adjustments) even if they turn up on the day unannounced. This is made clear in the DPPP for each TOC.

 

[JamesTT]

24 hours is not a requirement, it's a recommendation. The railway must accommodate disabled passengers (within reasonable adjustments) even if they turn up on the day unannounced. This is made clear in the DPPP for each TOC.

OK thank you for explaining that to me. Is there a guideline as to what constitutes a reasonable adjustment?

 

[AlterEgo]

OK thank you for explaining that to me. Is there a guideline as to what constitutes a reasonable adjustment?

Not specifically no. Here's an explainer. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/d...e-reasonable-adjustments-for-disabled-people/

What is reasonable and what is not varies from person to person and ultimately a court would decide in individual discrimination cases.

As an example, reasonable would be allocating and reserving a wheelchair space on a train. Unreasonable would be the demolition of the entire Tube system and starting again to ensure every single station had step free access from the street.

 

[JamesTT]

Not specifically no. Here's an explainer. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/d...e-reasonable-adjustments-for-disabled-people/

What is reasonable and what is not varies from person to person and ultimately a court would decide in individual discrimination cases.

As an example, reasonable would be allocating and reserving a wheelchair space on a train. Unreasonable would be the demolition of the entire Tube system and starting again to ensure every single station had step free access from the street.

Ok how about this. OBS is on a train doing tickets in coach 1 of a 12 car train it pulls into a station. Wheelchair user is waiting on the platform where the rear disabled carriage will stop. The train is running X minutes late and a number already on board including disabled passengers are concerned about missing connections. What should the OBS do?

 

[AlterEgo]

Ok how about this. OBS is on a train doing tickets in coach 1 of a 12 car train it pulls into a station. Wheelchair user is waiting on the platform where the rear disabled carriage will stop. The train is running X minutes late and a number already on board including disabled passengers are concerned about missing connections. What should the OBS do?

The OBS should do what he considers reasonable, it's as simple as that.

If it were me, I would board the disabled passenger. The railway can sort out missed connections (including passengers needing assistance) in line with the Equality Act fairly easily.

 

[Anvil1984]

Ok how about this. OBS is on a train doing tickets in coach 1 of a 12 car train it pulls into a station. Wheelchair user is waiting on the platform where the rear disabled carriage will stop. The train is running X minutes late and a number already on board including disabled passengers are concerned about missing connections. What should the OBS do?

Simple.. The timetable goes out of the window and the disabled passenger gets accommodated. However as there's probably no requirement for the OBS to look out of the door at a station as he has no dispatch involvement the train will get a minute or two later.... However there'll be more than one wheelchair accessible coach per 12 car train

 

[LowLevel]

That's no different to any other train at the minute. It's perfectly acceptable to delay a train to assist a wheelchair user or other disabled person to board, there's a delay attribution code for it and the crew won't be penalised. All that's asked is that they turn up in a reasonable time for any arrangements to be made, a few minutes before the train is fine - if the train is subsequently late it's the train operator's problem. If they arrive as the dispatch procedure is starting it won't be interrupted though, same for anyone else.

 

[infobleep]

Simple.. The timetable goes out of the window and the disabled passenger gets accommodated. However as there's probably no requirement for the OBS to look out of the door at a station as he has no dispatch involvement the train will get a minute or two later.... However there'll be more than one wheelchair accessible coach per 12 car train

So what they need to do is advise the disabled passenger in advance where he should position himself o the platform in advance. Perhaps they could have a system that tells stations where the guard is on the train. So as well as announcing the trains be, it announces were the guard is and the guard agrees not to move from the carriage once the last track circuit or other trigger has been passed for the announcement to be made at the station.

Of course that does seem rather cumbersome and not workable just so a wheelchair user is in the right place.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[JamesTT]

Simple.. The timetable goes out of the window and the disabled passenger gets accommodated. However as there's probably no requirement for the OBS to look out of the door at a station as he has no dispatch involvement the train will get a minute or two later.... However there'll be more than one wheelchair accessible coach per 12 car train

Someone told me about part of southern's dispatch training. The trainer say's look at this little old lady she is walking slowly up the platform do you hold the train for her. The trainees all go yes of course. Trainer then goes to second slide and says look at all the people you are going to inconvenience.

 

[Anvil1984]

Someone told me about part of southern's dispatch training. The trainer say's look at this little old lady she is walking slowly up the platform do you hold the train for her. The trainees all go yes of course. Trainer then goes to second slide and says look at all the people you are going to inconvenience.

Was the old lady on the platform at the time the train was due and was on the platform? If so you hold the train.

Are you now saying we should dispatch trains under any system and leave old grannies and disabled passengers behind for the sake of 60 seconds!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So what they need to do is advise the disabled passenger in advance where he should position himself o the platform in advance. Perhaps they could have a system that tells stations where the guard is on the train. So as well as announcing the trains be, it announces were the guard is and the guard agrees not to move from the carriage once the last track circuit or other trigger has been passed for the announcement to be made at the station.

Of course that does seem rather cumbersome and not workable just so a wheelchair user is in the right place.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I didn't allude to having to do that but ok

 

[maniacmartin]

So what they need to do is advise the disabled passenger in advance where he should position himself o the platform in advance. Perhaps they could have a system that tells stations where the guard is on the train. So as well as announcing the trains be, it announces were the guard is and the guard agrees not to move from the carriage once the last track circuit or other trigger has been passed for the announcement to be made at the station.

That system sounds expensive to implement and would be a fare evader's dream come true

 

[Taunton]

Things now seem to be coming to a head on Southern. The Mayor of London is taking the headlines demanding that he takes over responsibility for Southern Metro services, some of which are now effectively useless. MPs all along the lines up in arms with constituent pressure. Rail minister resigned. Once the PM gets back from more pressing matters in Europe it is only going to take a brief and exasperated word to "sort it out" and it's going to be curtains for GTR top management, and quite possibly for some of the civil servants at DfT as well.

 

[Sprinter153]

Are you now saying we should dispatch trains under any system and leave old grannies and disabled passengers behind for the sake of 60 seconds!

Not specifically grannies and the disabled, but post the Martin Zee / CPS debacle, it now says in our professional train working policy that we must not commence the dispatch procedure in any way if there is any person or object who might possibly enter the 'dispatch corridor' - basically anything from the cantrail down within a distance of 1.5m to 2m of the train.

If we followed this, a heck of a lot of trains wouldn't move, I suspect.

 

[the sniper]

Not specifically grannies and the disabled, but post the Martin Zee / CPS debacle...

I've just noticed his case goes to Court on Monday, unless something has changed since May.

 

[bengley]

Any update on East, West Coast and Arun Valley not being signed off as suitable for DOO(P)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Regarding disabled passengers does it not state on the company website about booking 24 hours in advance? yes pain in the proverbial and I would not want to be in that situation and I sympathise and empathise. However if that had contravened the DDA would Southern not have been pulled up and told that they could not tell disabled passengers they need to book 24 hours ahead if assistance was required? As far as I am aware the official assisted travel system will still be in place.

I've noticed multiple stations have had new LED lighting installed in the last week or so - Polegate and Cooksbridge are two of the ones I noticed - the lighting is now of the type used at DOO stations on the Brighton Main Line and is a lot brighter and more even than the other lighting style

 

[sarahj]

On the OBS and a wheelchair, there is the small fact that the OBS has nothing to do with dispatch, so you could end up with this:

Train pulls into station. Wheelchair on platform. Driver does not notice as they are concentrating on their stopping point.
OBS notices, and get off train.
'Hello, where are you going?
Oh, so and so'
OBS goes and gets ramp.
Meanwhile drivers looks at screen in cab with narrow viewpoint. All clear, time to go.
Closes doors.
Train pulls out with OBS and Wheelchair still on platform.

Or:

OBS busy doing OBS things in coach 8. Train pulls into 4 car station with wheelchair. OBS not trained on routes anymore and the PIS is out.
Train pulls out. Wheelchair still on platform.

 

[speedy_sticks]

I am in San Francisco at the momentat a driverless vehicle technology conference, I can tell you that we are starting to look like a laughing stock to other Countries, they can't work out why Southern are worsening accessibility standards for disabled and vulnerable folks, not improving it.

I suggest very strongly that some here try to book EVERY journey 24 hours in advance (maybe even in a wheelchair) before suggesting that the OBS Policy isn't discrimination.

I spoke to a former revenue protection officer who is retraining as an OBS, he says that platform duties will be vulantary. So spontaneous travel for the first time for me in 25 years is very much in doubt.

Don't forget if somebody does load me up in London Victoria, they may not no, so what happens if communication fails between stations and there isn't anybody on the platform to meet me at Three Bridges platform 5 or Crawley (Horsham bound)? Answers please!?

Does it really take 24 hours to phone a train station?

Any update on East, West Coast and Arun Valley not being signed off as suitable for DOO(P)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Regarding disabled passengers does it not state on the company website about booking 24 hours in advance? yes pain in the proverbial and I would not want to be in that situation and I sympathise and empathise. However if that had contravened the DDA would Southern not have been pulled up and told that they could not tell disabled passengers they need to book 24 hours ahead if assistance was required? As far as I am aware the official assisted travel system will still be in place.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the OBS and a wheelchair, there is the small fact that the OBS has nothing to do with dispatch, so you could end up with this:

Train pulls into station. Wheelchair on platform. Driver does not notice as they are concentrating on their stopping point.
OBS notices, and get off train.
'Hello, where are you going?
Oh, so and so'
OBS goes and gets ramp.
Meanwhile drivers looks at screen in cab with narrow viewpoint. All clear, time to go.
Closes doors.
Train pulls out with OBS and Wheelchair still on platform.

Or:

OBS busy doing OBS things in coach 8. Train pulls into 4 car station with wheelchair. OBS not trained on routes anymore and the PIS is out.
Train pulls out. Wheelchair still on platform.

My main worry is that the OBS won't know they are on or off the train, just another step towards destaffing the railway.

 

[Skimble19]

As someone who works on the GN side of the GTR network that has been DOO for many years now, I do find the conversation about what will happen to disabled passengers quite interesting.. On our side, generally most passengers are more than happy to book through the system as it means they're guaranteed to be met, staff will be aware they're coming so can make sure they aren't doing other duties when the passengers are due to arrive, and it generally works well for everyone involved. Plus there are now more stations than ever staffed, and many are now staffed 24 hours a day.

Very few don't book, not all of them even know they can book in advance, however once they're told 99% say they'll do it next time, purely because whilst they were met that time if they book it guarantees they'll be met the next time.

 

[Lincoln]

Very few don't book, not all of them even know they can book in advance, however once they're told 99% say they'll do it next time, purely because whilst they were met that time if they book it guarantees they'll be met the next time.

Why *should* passengers with reduced mobility etc have to "be told"? When DOO first came about the attitude to disabled people was markedly different, a good example of this attitude was the formation of 153s where the non-accessible toilet is at the opposite end of the carriage to the space for the wheelchair.

Today is a different world where many industries have become much more aware and accommodating… either through legislation or simply just a general understanding that quite a bit of money can be made simply through looking after their disabled customers.

By not guaranteeing a second person on every train it becomes a backwards step and casual discrimination by forcing passengers to book for help, rather than striving towards a "turn up and go" railway which is enjoyed by every other passenger who is able to look after themselves.

Another argument which crops up is that having the second person on board is allegedly nothing more than job creation despite them collecting plenty in revenues, and that is costs too much for the taxpayer, yet we are quite happy to fund Trident replacement as a nation, as it "creates jobs"!

One rule for one industry and another for the railways it seems.

 

[Antman]

Why *should* passengers with reduced mobility etc have to "be told"? When DOO first came about the attitude to disabled people was markedly different, a good example of this attitude was the formation of 153s where the non-accessible toilet is at the opposite end of the carriage to the space for the wheelchair.

Today is a different world where many industries have become much more aware and accommodating… either through legislation or simply just a general understanding that quite a bit of money can be made simply through looking after their disabled customers.

By not guaranteeing a second person on every train it becomes a backwards step and casual discrimination by forcing passengers to book for help, rather than striving towards a "turn up and go" railway which is enjoyed by every other passenger who is able to look after themselves.

Another argument which crops up is that having the second person on board is allegedly nothing more than job creation despite them collecting plenty in revenues, and that is costs too much for the taxpayer, yet we are quite happy to fund Trident replacement as a nation, as it "creates jobs"!

One rule for one industry and another for the railways it seems.

So what happens now on the many services that have no second person on board?

Trident has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread!

 

[Lincoln]

So what happens now on the many services that have no second person on board?

Trident has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread!

If you take the time to actually read what I put rather than being selective then it will become apparent.

Nowadays casual discrimination against disabled groups is unlawful, which is completely different to how things used to be. However that said, there are currently derogations for none accessible rolling stock but the deadline for compliance is fast approaching. Staff will still be needed even on complaint rolling stock to provide the necessary service.

With regards to Trident, it is funded and specified by the same government which funds and specifies what the railway delivers. So therefore an apt analogy.

 

[infobleep]

That system sounds expensive to implement and would be a fare evader's dream come true

Of course it would be and wouldnt be worth implementing but how else would the disabled passenger know where to position themselves if that was required. I don't think it should be implemented mind you.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Was the old lady on the platform at the time the train was due and was on the platform? If so you hold the train.

Are you now saying we should dispatch trains under any system and leave old grannies and disabled passengers behind for the sake of 60 seconds!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I didn't allude to having to do that but ok

Well it was stated that there were multiple disabled spaces but how would a disabled person know which one to go to? They are not mind readers.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am in San Francisco at the momentat a driverless vehicle technology conference, I can tell you that we are starting to look like a laughing stock to other Countries, they can't work out why Southern are worsening accessibility standards for disabled and vulnerable folks, not improving it.

I suggest very strongly that some here try to book EVERY journey 24 hours in advance (maybe even in a wheelchair) before suggesting that the OBS Policy isn't discrimination.

I spoke to a former revenue protection officer who is retraining as an OBS, he says that platform duties will be vulantary. So spontaneous travel for the first time for me in 25 years is very much in doubt.

Don't forget if somebody does load me up in London Victoria, they may not no, so what happens if communication fails between stations and there isn't anybody on the platform to meet me at Three Bridges platform 5 or Crawley (Horsham bound)? Answers please!?

Does it really take 24 hours to phone a train station?

You ring up whilst on the platform and then wait 24 hours for someone to come. In the mean time no one is allowed to move you as it's more than their jobs worth.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Antman]

If you take the time to actually read what I put rather than being selective then it will become apparent.

Nowadays casual discrimination against disabled groups is unlawful, which is completely different to how things used to be. However that said, there are currently derogations for none accessible rolling stock but the deadline for compliance is fast approaching. Staff will still be needed even on complaint rolling stock to provide the necessary service.

With regards to Trident, it is funded and specified by the same government which funds and specifies what the railway delivers. So therefore an apt analogy.

The word discrimination is ridiculously overused these days, accessibility for disabled people has improved over recent years and that can only be a good thing but we are never going to have perfection.

I'm not here to defend the government but reality has to come into this at some point and it's difficult to justify a second member of staff when there is very little for them to do, much the same as conductors on buses.

 

[infobleep]

The word discrimination is ridiculously overused these days, accessibility for disabled people has improved over recent years and that can only be a good thing but we are never going to have perfection.

I'm not here to defend the government but reality has to come into this at some point and it's difficult to justify a second member of staff when there is very little for them to do, much the same as conductors on buses.

Well then the government need to come out and publicly say, we do not think the benefits for disabled people are enough to justify a second mwmbw of staff or if they are far to scared to do that then get Govia Thameslink Railway to do it for them.

Just admit to it if that is what they think.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[AlterEgo]

Today is a different world where many industries have become much more aware and accommodating… either through legislation or simply just a general understanding that quite a bit of money can be made simply through looking after their disabled customers.

Quite right, but:

1) Do the railways make more money in profit from fares from disabled people than the cost of the reasonable adjustments?

Probably not, so

2) Legislation is required to ensure accessibility.

Nobody has yet been able to show that DOO is contrary to the Equality Act.

 

[Chrisgr31]

I'm not here to defend the government but reality has to come into this at some point and it's difficult to justify a second member of staff when there is very little for them to do, much the same as conductors on buses.

You can say that about many jobs though, security guards, train hosts on DLR, ushers in cinemas lifeguards in swimming pools etc Many doing jobs where the main part of their role is only required very occasionally, but when their primary role is needed it is needed.

A guards primary role is safety, much of the time that role may be able to be covered by someone else, but there will come an occasion when they are required, and that is when the problem will come.