Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[bnm]

And no Train Operating Company that operates DOO services is systematically breaking the law in regard to The Equality Act. All make the 'reasonable adjustments' required by the legislation.

 

[Domh245]

Ultimately, there are a number of ways the train company could provide access for mobility impaired customers such as yourself; it doesn't have to be provided by guards.

Sure, but having a guard means that there will be a second member of staff on board, whereas with the system that Southern had proposed, it'd be something of a lottery as to whether or not there will be the second member of staff there.

 

[Carlisle]

Yet people seek to blame managers for everything. Perhaps they could have managed things better as well, but who knows what really has gone on.

Yes the very senior ones should defiantly shoulder quite a bit of the blame, these guys have been perfectly content to take what will in all likelihood have been very very good salaries for many years now, whilst not daring to challenge their unions on DOO or other controversial modernisation issues for. many years until the government has literally forced their hand very recently

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes the very senior ones should defiantly shoulder quite a bit of the blame, these guys have been perfectly content to take what will in all likelihood have been very very good salaries for many years now, whilst not daring to challenge their unions on DOO or other controversial modernisation issues for. many years until the government has literally forced their hand very recently

How defiant should they be?

 

[Robertj21a]

How defiant should they be?

I definitely think they should be defiant if they aren't that definite.

 

[Carlisle]

How defiant should they be?

They're bosses, who in my experience generally try to make up/ doctor their own rules for as long as can get away with it

 

[philthetube]

My bold. How can you claim this if, as you precede this statement, you don't know the figures?

The calculation for Southern and other companies does not take into account people's tax liabilities and other factors you mention. The railway franchise companies are not a national institution and the calculations are not a BCR, such as is done for capital expenditure by NR (which is a national institution) where factors not directly related to the bottom line are so evaluated.

If you read my post you will see the first two words are I think.

I suspect that the numbers have not been worked out either way, as for the rest of your comment, what you say is correct but maybe it is not the best way of doing things, and as the dft is part of the government, spending tax payers money perhaps the whole issue should be looked at.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Unless the system is completely infallible you will never get rid of detonator protection. It's a very simple way of protecting the line. It should never ever need to be used but it is the last line of defence. Once we start trying to go down that route you end up with unthinkable scenarios happening and people get killed or injured. With TCOC's you shouldn't need detonators but you still have them!

I really don't get how GPS is supposed to replace route knowledge for guards.

And ETCS is not going to replace route knowledge for drivers.

One only needs to mention Clapham Junction to understand why detonators will always be necessary. Should any part of the signalling system fail they are essential.

 

[Antman]

Do you think DOO services contravene the Equality Act?

I don't see how quite honestly.

 

[MrCub]

http://www.brightonandhovenews.org/...t-to-make-way-home-while-service-in-meltdown/

The gates to Brighton Station have reportedly been locked to people coming in tonight to deal with a huge influx of passengers at the station as commuters and tourists try to make their way home.



The Brighton mainline has already been severely hit by delays caused by a collapsed sewer opening a sinkhole at Forest Hill, leading to the cancellation of trains from Brighton to London Bridge until tomorrow.

This, combined with large numbers of daytrippers making the most of the hottest day of the year and signal failures at Gatwick, has led to what people at the station are describing as “dangerous overcrowding” and “carnage”.

People are advised to avoid the station if possible....

Apparently Brighton station is in meltdown. How much of this is to do with the strike, just sheer numbers of people, the weather, etc...?

 

[maniacmartin]

Brighton station's overcrowding is due collapsed sewer "sinkhole" causing all 4 tracks to be closed on the main route between Croydon and London Bridge, and also an evening peak signal failure at Gatwick.

 

[sarahj]

Brighton station's overcrowding is due collapsed sewer "sinkhole" causing all 4 tracks to be closed on the main route between Croydon and London Bridge, and also an evening peak signal failure at Gatwick.

Yep, Gatwick issues just trashed to whole main line with heat issues and points issues. My 17.06 from Vic was 58 mins late into Brighton, which meant my next train up was late, which meant my next train from Bridges to Horsham was late, and so and so on. Delays were adding to delays, Drivers, Guards and stock were all in the wrong place. and then added to a very sunny day, holidays and the magnetic attractions for a day out by the sea, then all heading home around the same time = chaos.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

http://www.brightonandhovenews.org/...t-to-make-way-home-while-service-in-meltdown/


Apparently Brighton station is in meltdown. How much of this is to do with the strike, just sheer numbers of people, the weather, etc...?

I knew it was very hot on the area of the South Coast, but it must be worrying for both passengers and train crews alike when the actual station begins to liquefy before your very eyes...

 

[Deepgreen]

I knew it was very hot on the area of the South Coast, but it must be worrying for both passengers and train crews alike when the actual station begins to liquefy before your very eyes...

Acknowledging your literal interpretation of these statements (and with some empathy), the on-call Station Manager is one S. Dali.

 

[maniacmartin]

Back to the Southern DOO topic.

During the major disruptions yesterday I was on a Horsham-bound train that had a scheduled change of conductor at East Croydon, however the new conductor was displaced. The station announcer announced the train would be cancelled, but then the driver made an announcement to the effect that he had agreed to run the service as far as Horley as DOO due to the disruptions.

In this case it was relatively easy to do given that the line was already cleared for DOO, the train was equipped the technology that DOO services use and most (all?) calling stations that the train was scheduled to call at have dispatch staff and meant that many passengers didn't have a long wait on a hot platform. From a customer services point of view, it came across very well and we got to stay on a nice air-conditioned train with minimal delay, so its easy to see how there is support from some sections for the OBS role to not be made mandatory.

I do wonder whether the driver was obliged to continue the service DOO given it was originally planned to have a guard, or could have some grounds to refuse it? If the latter is true, I assume that running the service might not be fostering the best driver-guard relations right now

 

[14sutton]

Rail minister now live in front of transport select group

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/c1459be0-b90b-46f8-87d3-1d5258acb5ef

 

[ComUtoR]

Sitting suspended right on the cusp of a crucial moment. They are very non comittal.

 

[Dave1987]

Well Peter Wilkinson said specifically that the trains were designed for DOO, he cannot guarantee the jobs in future franchises (believe in reference to OBS), he was not interested in having two members of safety critical staff onboard.

 

[ComUtoR]

Whilst in the same breath promising that there should be investment in quality staff and that passenger numbers are increasing and that staffing should also increase to engage with passengers... but cant guarantee more staff or onboard staff...

 

[14sutton]

From the session

The nice Mr Wilkinson clearly did not want to be there, and every question looked a major hassle! Rather embarrassed when asked about the comments made at the infamous Croydon meeting!

The new rail minister looks like he has spent the last 3 days memorising lots of preprared stsements, the way he replied parrot fashion! (yes I know it must be very difficult if you have only been in a job a few days)

I think the MPs have realised that having lots of meetings between GTR and the RMT is pointless and will solve nothing. The DfT hold the key in this, but they don't see it this way.

 

[Fincra5]

Whilst in the same breath promising that there should be investment in quality staff and that passenger numbers are increasing and that staffing should also increase to engage with passengers... but cant guarantee more staff or onboard staff...

Guy is a complete tool.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think the MPs hace realised that having lots of meetings between GTR and the RMT is pointless and will solve nothing. The DfT hold the key in this, but they don't see it this way.

This is maybe true, but the situation is constrained by contract law and the DfT may well have had legal advice that they should not intervene (the MPs will know that).
It does seem that GTR is in franchise breach (from before the cancellations), but the DfT is not taking contractual action for now, beyond demanding an improvement plan.

I didn't see Pete Wilkinson's answers to the personal questions posed just as the meeting was suspended for a vote, but again the legal eagles may well have forced him to say very little.
But I have to say he didn't come over well at all (nor his boss alongside) in later questioning.
They seemed less than informed about the specific issues.

By contrast I thought Paul Maynard did splendidly, and clearly knows his way round franchising, the fares system, and rail disability issues.
Hopefully some good decisions to come from him in the future.
One of his first jobs is to decide on the East Anglia award.

 

[maniacmartin]

Rail minister now live in front of transport select group

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/c1459be0-b90b-46f8-87d3-1d5258acb5ef

For anyone watching after the fact, the video starts 11 minutes in.

 

[HH]

So, what did this tell us? Well, that Wilkinson is more slippery than a slippery eel covered in chip fat. But not slippery enough; he was spiked on several occasions. It emerged that DfT had deliberately let GTR off. They didn't quite pin down the Department's role in the problem; the de gras remained uncouped.

 

[Antman]

Guy is a complete tool.

Who is Guy?

 

[Fincra5]

Who is Guy?

I meant it as in "That Guy" Peter Wilkinson.

He's probably back in Vienna now.

 

[bnm]

He's probably back in Vienna now.

Huh? This means nothing to me.

 

[infobleep]

And no Train Operating Company that operates DOO services is systematically breaking the law in regard to The Equality Act. All make the 'reasonable adjustments' required by the legislation.

So are they allowed to make less reasonable adjustments by not providing a service they once did?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
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One only needs to mention Clapham Junction to understand why detonators will always be necessary. Should any part of the signalling system fail they are essential.

Why Clapham Junction? Because it's so busy or did something happen where detonators were used?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Deepgreen]

Southern held a 'Meet the Managers' event at Victoria this morning. I decided to avoid the pointless effort of conversing with them, but noted the obvious police presence very nearby!
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So are they allowed to make less reasonable adjustments by not providing a service they once did?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why Clapham Junction? Because it's so busy or did something happen where detonators were used?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I think it's a reference to the 1988 Clapham Junction crash, where an approaching ECS down train ploughed into the wreckage of the first two crashed up trains, the collision of which resulted from the incorrect wiring of a signal during overnight engineering work, where detonators would possibly have helped to reduce the death toll of 35 if it had been possible to deploy them in time.

I appeared on the front page of the 'Independent' newspaper the next morning in a photo taken on the evening of the crash day by journalists who boarded a Victoria to Dorking train at Victoria and stood on the seats to get a shot of people standing on a crowded commuter train (it was 8EPB) and happened to get me in the middle of the shot. The piece was apparently intended to highlight the 'danger' of people standing on trains in the rush hour in the event of a crash. The Cannon Street crash was also used to show the same issue.

 

[physics34]

Southern held a 'Meet the Managers' event at Victoria this morning. I decided to avoid the pointless effort of conversing with them, but noted the obvious police presence very nearby!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I think it's reference to the 1988 Clapham Junction crash, where an approaching ECS down train ploughed into the wreckage of the first two crashed up trains, the collision of which resulted from the incorrect wiring of a signal during overnight engineering work, where detonators would possibly have helped to reduce the death toll of 35 if it had been possible to deploy them in time.

I appeared on the front page of the 'Independent' newspaper the next morning in a photo taken on the evening of the crash day by journalists who boarded a Victoria to Dorking train at Victoria and stood on the seats to get a shot of people standing on a crowded commuter train (it was 8EPB) and happened to get me in the middle of the shot. The piece was apparently intended to highlight the 'danger' of people standing on trains in the rush hour in the event of a crash. The Cannon Street crash was also used to show the same issue.

if thats about detonators being deployed on the down line to stop the ECS being involved in the collision, it all happened simultaneously within a few seconds of the initial collision, so wouldve been impossible for dets to have been placed down in time.

People tend to stand up anyway on approach to a terminus station even when trains are not busy so its a little bit of folly. The one death was really as a result of the poor structural integrity of the SR-type EPBs.

Not sure ive posted this a bit out of context, but ive added my view anyway