The North of England - where does it start?

[backontrack]

That's only if you include Stourbridge and Halesowen (its metropolitan area). I think you'll find Coventry is the second-largest, good Sir.

Ah, I was going by metropolitan areas. I'll probably stick to that for clarity, but still, many thanks, good Sir.

 

[Harbornite]

Ah, I was going by metropolitan areas. I'll probably stick to that for clarity, but still, many thanks, good Sir.

If we go by metropolitan areas, the top four for population are London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds/Bradford.

 

[DasLunatic]

Even if you do include its metropolitan area, Coventry is still larger, by circa 29,000 inhabitants.

 

[Harbornite]

But Yorkshire beats the West Midlands. I believe that that is what we were talking about?

No it doesn't.

The west mids had a larger population than Yorkshire in 2011.

 

[backontrack]

This is my list: http://www.citymayors.com/gratis/uk_topcities.html

In any case, quality not quantity! I don't think there are any 'Harborne Dales', 'Coventry Wolds' or 'Dudley Moors' (except for the obvious one).

 

[PaxVobiscum]

In the "pecking order" who is the highest between the Duke of Lancaster and the Duke of York?

"Higher", please – but do carry on, this is fun.

 

[Harbornite]

This is my list: http://www.citymayors.com/gratis/uk_topcities.html

In any case, quality not quantity! I don't think there are any 'Harborne Dales', 'Coventry Wolds' or 'Dudley Moors' (except for the obvious one).

The surrounding areas have their fair share of natural attractions. Let's ignore the 1974 borders and look to the counties that over the years have lost territory to Birmingham- Warwickshire, Worcestershire and Staffordshire. We have attractions (in no particular order) like Cannock chase, the Clent Hills etc. Further afield in shropshire we have the world's first cast iron bridge. Not too bad.

 

[Lankyline]

I wouldn't be that proud of Harold Wilson. Oh and they lost the war of the Roses. I'm sure someone here could draw up a list for Lancashire. Also I recommend splitting your post into paragraphs, it's a bit tiresome reading a wall of text.

Working on it !

 

[Harbornite]

Working on it !

Good man!

 

[Lankyline]

Good points. In fairness to Yorkshire, they have quite a few strings to their bow. I was going to say that Manchester and Liverpool also have fine musical heritage, but the former is no longer in Lancs and the latter never was.)

Nice to see Yorkies aren't perfect, I think you'll find both were part of the might Red Rose county, so that gives us the Beatles (unfortunately)

As much as it pains me to say so, liked the rant, response is in it's way, may take a while as there is just so much to list

 

[Harbornite]

Nice to see Yorkies aren't perfect, I think you'll find both were part of the might Red Rose county, so that gives us the Beatles (unfortunately)

As much as it pains me to say so, liked the rant, response is in it's way, may take a while as there is just so much to list

I understand. As for your stance on the beatles, I'm not even going there!

 

[Altrincham]

For me, this depends on which side of the Pennines you're viewing the north.

I place the start of the north at Junction 16 of the M6, which also happens to be close to the Staffordshire/Cheshire border. Plus, on a clear night it's the most southerly point that I've ever seen the mast lights of Winter Hill from.

However, I wouldn't use the same latitude on the M1 as the starting point for the north. The M1/M18 junction always feels like the start of the north.

This would result in a south-west/north-easterly line running from somewhere just above Stoke to an area just above Worksop (with the Stoke end of the invisible line heading due west, and the Worksop end of the invisible line heading due east).

Towns & villages that lie at the northern extremities of Staffordshire, Derbyshire, and Nottinghamshire feel like they should be part of the north. Most certainly the very northern parts of Derbyshire such as Glossop, Hadfield, Chapel-en-le-Frith, Buxton and Whaley Bridge (amongst others) should definitely be part of the north as historically they've had closer associations with Manchester than Derby.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Duke of Cornwall is visiting my adopted home on Monday: I'm otherwise engaged, so shan't be seeking an audience, but I think I read somewhere he's got a bit more status than those two - I stand to be corrected, I don't have an intense interest in the subject.

The current incumbent holding the title of the Duke of Lancaster is H.M.The Queen and she would "not be amused" to hear that she does not have as much status than the Duke of Cornwall, her son H.R.H. the Prince Charles.

 

[alexjames]

If I might repeat a time worn saying of my invention, "Geordies begin at Radlett". That is, of course, stated from a South of Radlett perspective.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Not many people know that the Duchy of Lancaster has been merged into the crown, and Oliver Letwin is probably one of them.

Let's have none of this false modesty. Both of us also knew that fact...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is my list: http://www.citymayors.com/gratis/uk_topcities.html

In any case, quality not quantity! I don't think there are any 'Harborne Dales', 'Coventry Wolds' or 'Dudley Moors' (except for the obvious one).

Where do you place Staffordshire, as this has the "Staffordshire Moorlands"?

 

[Senex]

In the "pecking order" who is the highest between the Duke of Lancaster and the Duke of York?

The sovereign is always Duke of Lancaster, whereas the York dukedom is just one of those handed out to royal offspring, so no contest there.

On the ecclesiastical side, throughout the Middle Ages North Lancashire was all in the Archdeaconry of Richmond in the Diocese of York, and thus under the Archbishop of York.

(OT I have a dim memory that the reason why the first Crown Courts were set up in Liverpool and Manchester, before the legislation that extended the system to the rest of the country, was that it could be done under Palatinate jurisdiction. May be wrong ...)

 

[kevjs]

I would have said north starts roughly along a line from the Dee to the Humber, although a small area north of the Dee is in Wales (due to the Dee having changed its course since the border was first defined.) - finishing at the Scottish border.

I am surprised that the "official" map describes Oxford, Portsmouth & Southampton as being part of "South East". They would be better regarded as part of a "South Central" region.

I always used to find it funny as a kid when we went to my Aunties in Oxfordshire and the news was BBC Newsroom South East on BBC ONE and Central News on Central. Kinda sums that region up somewhat!

As for the North South line - it's certainly possible to see why places like Nottingham get considered Northern, but as a Preston lad Manchester is down south while still being a Northern city....

I'd say G. Manc, Merseyside, and Yorkshire are the North, and everything below the south... Heck the Geographical centre of the UK is at Dunsop Bridge in Lancashire

 

[Senex]

I always used to find it funny as a kid when we went to my Aunties in Oxfordshire and the news was BBC Newsroom South East on BBC ONE and Central News on Central. Kinda sums that region up somewhat!

As for the North South line - it's certainly possible to see why places like Nottingham get considered Northern, but as a Preston lad Manchester is down south while still being a Northern city....

I'd say G. Manc, Merseyside, and Yorkshire are the North, and everything below the south... Heck the Geographical centre of the UK is at Dunsop Bridge in Lancashire

The broadcasters do some funny things! Here in Central York my regional television services from both BBC and ITV come from Newcastle, so that I hear all about the Tyne Valley, Cumberland, etc. However, my neighbour across the road gets the Leeds product and so gets a totally different perspective on northern life. If, however, I choose the ITV HD service, then my regional news (and all the accompanying adverts) comes from Manchester, with the BBC just giving me a blank screen.

As a broad definition of the North, I'd try the Pennine Chain and the lands west and east of it. And for the southern boundary, I think the southern border of Yorkshire is fine in the east, but there isn't nearly such a clear line in the west. I'd modify your Greater Manchester and Merseyside slightly to say those areas that look to Manchester and Liverpool as their metropolitan centres. I think Macclesfield looks towards Manchester but Congleton really doesn't, for example. Buxton is a difficult one, but I'd suggest that is in the Manchester ambit rather than the Derby ambit. (Even if Derby was the furthest south that Bonny Prince Charlie managed to get!)

 

[yorksrob]

The sovereign is always Duke of Lancaster, whereas the York dukedom is just one of those handed out to royal offspring, so no contest there.

On the ecclesiastical side, throughout the Middle Ages North Lancashire was all in the Archdeaconry of Richmond in the Diocese of York, and thus under the Archbishop of York.

(OT I have a dim memory that the reason why the first Crown Courts were set up in Liverpool and Manchester, before the legislation that extended the system to the rest of the country, was that it could be done under Palatinate jurisdiction. May be wrong ...)

I went on a fascinating tour around Lancaster castle recently and the guide was extremely knowledgeable on the origin of the Palatine and the Courts system.

Lancashire was apparently the last shire to be formed (under King John) having previously been a sort of wild west/north/south of Yorkshire/Cheshire/Cumberland.

 

[Lankyline]

Yorkies can only envy us Lankies because we gave them everything they have, because we created the industrial revolution, your railways, your industry, your Sheffield steel, all down to us, so take a knee and bow to the might of the Red Rose.
You've got abbeys, cathedrals, a few hills, so have we, but we didn't have to split our county into sections just to claim bragging rights on size, now there is no such thing as Yorkshire, you don't exist anymore!
You have Tetley's, we have a proper beer, I give you Lancaster Bomber, to wash down our world famous Lancashire cheese, or maybe our pies, Eccles cake, black pudding, tripe, famous Yorkshire food recipes can be found on the back of a box of matches.
I also offer for your envy, the first team to do the league and cup double Preston North End or how about the most famous player in English football, Sir Tom Finney !
The list is endless, but if Yorkies don't bow in allegiance, we will dig up Excalibur from Martin mere, set loose the witches and launch a 5 day bombardment of Halifax with tripe and black pudding.
And when we take over, we will ban songs about bits of wasteland near Ilkley and help sheep stop feeling scared !

 

[northwichcat]

You have Tetley's, we have a proper beer, I give you Lancaster Bomber, to wash down our world famous Lancashire cheese, or maybe our pies, Eccles cake, black pudding, tripe, famous Yorkshire food recipes can be found on the back of a box of matches.

Yorkshire has world famous Wensleydale cheese and plenty of pies too. Although I'm not sure what the Yorkshire equivalent of Thwaites is.

Eccles cake, black pudding and tripe sound like a list of foods most people don't like. I'd much prefer Lancashire Hotpot followed by Manchester Tart instead.

 

[fowler9]

Why is Yorkshire so bad at Football?

 

[yorksrob]

Yorkshire has world famous Wensleydale cheese and plenty of pies too. Although I'm not sure what the Yorkshire equivalent of Thwaites is.

Eccles cake, black pudding and tripe sound like a list of foods most people don't like. I'd much prefer Lancashire Hotpot followed by Manchester Tart instead.

Yorkshire has an endless supply of excellent breweries, from the old dependables such as Timothy Taylor and Theakstons to the new kids on the block, such as the Otley brewery, the Ilkley brewery, the Leeds brewery, the York brewery, the black sheep brewery, the copper dragon brewery and I'm sure some that I've forgotten !

That said Lancashire does have Daniel's Hammer as well as the very good Burscough brewery to keep them going.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Eccles cake, black pudding and tripe sound like a list of foods most people don't like. I'd much prefer Lancashire Hotpot followed by Manchester Tart instead.

I have always preferred Chorley Cakes to Eccles Cakes, as they have a far better pastry, are flatter but with a bigger diameter.

Black pudding is an essential part of a mixed grill....far more preferable to the idea of "hash browns".

Tripe is something less well known to the younger generation who most probably would not know that it can be served cooked or cold in a salad with a good vinergar dressing liberally applied.

I better stop here or I will start discussing the overnight infusion of senna pods to drink, caraway seed cake to eat and the application of Condy's Crystals in the bath water in the zinc bath off the hook in the back yard that turns the water a nice shade of reddish-purple.....:roll:

 

[Bevan Price]

Why is Yorkshire so bad at Football?

1. Because many people prefer games with an oval ball and 13 players in each team.

2. Historically, because some of them spent more money on the ground than on the team.


3. Now, in common with other "less wealthy" teams, whenever they discover good players, these are often "plundered" by richer teams.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I would not consider Sandbach or Scunthorpe as Midlands towns but the easiest way to determine where to draw the line is to ask people in borderline towns if they consider themselves Midlanders or Northerners.

Chesterfield is somewhere I'm not sure about - although it is in Derbyshire (a Midlands county) it often seems closer to Sheffield (a Northern city). Maybe someone from the town can clarify as to what they believe themselves to be.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I would not consider Sandbach as Midlands but the easiest way to determine where to draw the line is to ask people in borderline towns if they consider themselves Midlanders or Northerners.

Heavens above, you were good at Geography at school...

Sandbach lies north of Crewe in the southern reaches of our blessed split-in-twain county of what is currently known as Cheshire East.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Heavens above, you were good at Geography at school...

Sandbach lies north of Crewe in the southern reaches of our blessed split-in-twain county of what is currently known as Cheshire East.

Someone earlier mentioned it as being in the Midlands and you have graciously confirmed in your post that it isn't - however if someone asked me what part of the country it was in I would say the North-West (of England that is).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why is Yorkshire so bad at Football?

Hang on there, we gave the World Jamie Vardy... and Ray Wilson... and David Seaman...

Also, Denis Law and Bill Shankly served their apprenticeships in HD1... and we STILL hold the record for successive league championships, we've been matched but never bettered!

As for other sports, we invented Rugby League and had Yorkshire been an independent country in 2012 we'd have been something like 8th in the medals table...

NB: At this point I should mention that I disown that noisy lot in white that play in a big skip next to the M621!

 

[Blamethrower]

Yes it's funny saying that places like cov don't have moors but the point of fact is this:

We were asked where the north started, no mention of the Midlands, basically where is the north/south divide.

It's nowt to do with geography or geology, it's about the social makeup of those towns. In the middle of the country, you could argue forever about where it starts but in reality, the north starts wherever they say grass instead of grarss.

This starts in a line underneath Rugby, Coventry and Birmingham.

Technically yes, they are the Midlands, but if you were to draw a binary line across the country to separate north and south, it would be across here. North and south is an ideal, not a geographical certainty