Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[highdyke]

Now I know the railway does attract some of the more mentally and physically challenged in society, but whilst the depth of ignorance about what actually is involved in DOO and non DOO train operation is totally understandable, the fact that so many comment on it when they know nothing about it and have never done a guard's or driver's job is just risible if it were not such a serious subject to railwaymen.

I have a PPL, but you don;t find me commenting about commercial pilots practices on the PP Prune forums. I've held numerous severed limb stumps, but I am still not a paramedic and you don't find me telling paramedics on the paramedic forum nonsense from a position of ignorance.

Questions, I can understand, but to talk such drivel about something you have never, and will never do beggars belief !

try evacuating a train in an emergency as a DOO driver in the dark on a 4 track, 100 mile per hour, 3rd rail layout and tell me a guard is useless.

have some drunken thug drying to smash his way into your cab as you do 90 MPH because he thought he was stopping at X station and didn't have a guard to make an announcement to that effect

Try having a screaming woman hammer on your cab door as you pull up to a red shouting that someone's trying to attack her

There is so much more to DOO and doors than you armchair wonders can ever imagine

What on earth are you on about?

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

It's a damn site better than the days with no mobile communications where the guard had to work out where to lay detonators and run to the nearest fixed telephone or signalbox.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


There should come to a sensible agreement based on statistical evidence drawn from 30 plus years of operating experience.

So passenger numbers have not climbed in the last 30 years have they ? The railway is the same as it was, and society and risk acceptance and the legal consequences of incident are the same as they were even 10 years ago ??

 

[Haig paxton]

What on earth are you on about?

He's on about something you blatantly know nothing about.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

What on earth are you on about?

I'm on about something you simply don't understand, clearly, have you ever been the driver in any of the situations listed above ? I have, when you have, I'll think you know something about it

 

[Flamingo]

Well I wish someone would tell my manager that I'm only there to do the doors and nothing else. I am a fully trained safety critical member of staff. I do my rules and PTS every two years and have regular assessments. I am trained in how to handle an emergency, either with the driver, or without if they are unable to do anything because of injury. An OBS would not be able to do any of these things as they are purely customer service and revenue, which is something I am expected to do as well. Its not an optional extra.

Don't bother. It's all been said before. The one's who know it know it, the others don't care, as they think standing on the end of a platform with a notebook (or sitting safely in a signal box miles from a passenger, or an incident) equips them to give an "expert opinion".

As far as they are concerned, those of us doing the job don't know what we are talking about, and are obviously just brainwashed by the RMT.

 

[74A]

We are talking about the placing of clips on adjacent lines to turn signals to danger. How can an axle counter detect that a train is speeding towards another de-railed train? It can't, hence why track circuit clips must be put down before any other action is taken to prevent something bad getting worse. Axle counters are not relevant here.

In axle counter area if you place Track Circuit clips down it will not put the signals to danger.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Don't bother. It's all been said before. The one's who know it know it, the others don't care, as they think standing on the end of a platform with a notebook (or sitting safely in a signal box miles from a passenger, or an incident) equips them to give an "expert opinion".

As far as they are concerned, those of us doing the job don't know what we are talking about, and are obviously just brainwashed by the RMT.

I wouldn't put it nearly so politely ! But then again, I am a driver, not a guard, or a brainwashed OBS whatever the heck that is

 

[74A]

So passenger numbers have not climbed in the last 30 years have they ? The railway is the same as it was, and society and risk acceptance and the legal consequences of incident are the same as they were even 10 years ago ??

I don't really understand the issue with risk acceptance. Weather you have a guard or driver someone has to take the risk.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I don't really understand the issue with risk acceptance. Weather you have a guard or driver someone has to take the risk.

I agree, you really DON'T understand

 

[313103]

I am not going to answer all of your points as it would be digressing to what we are talking about but i would like to take you to task in this comment and one other.

In the grand scheme of things it is a relatively simple change. For more complex changes have happened in the past with other grades.

In the Grand scheme of things the railways have been reducing staff year on year since i started in 1980 and probably before that.

I agree that more complex things have occurred in other grades on the railway, however i must say the grades that have taken the biggest hit is in the train building and manufacturing areas and Guards.

When i started we had massive workshops dotted around the UK, now we just have a token gesture.

Guards are going the same way, when i started all trains had a guard, now especially in London area its about 60/40 swing to Driver Only Operation, this will only get worse if Southern get there way it will be open season on my former grade, GWR, Merseyrail, Scotrail & Northern are companies are watching where this dispute goes, should the Guards lose expect to see those companies mentioned above start the process of getting rid of the guard with haste.

Despite what Southern have said and what other companies are saying the sole reason to rid the Guard is to reduce staff numbers, expect all the Guards to be put in roles that will not be used after that companies franchise ends or by methods to make it withdrawn during that franchise or forced to take redundancy. You and others may say i am speculating and making wild claims, but take a look around those areas that have had DOO for years, the original Midland electrics none left and the current Thameslink has well certainly when i have used it in the past no on train staff presence other then the driver. The same could be said about every other DOO operated route. Also thirty+ years of DOO has shown me its all about reducing numbers and not about improving the comfort of passengers.

Once they have got rid of the guards and then realise that they have to make more savings what will be the next grade to fall? The ticket office cull has already started so it wont be them, dispatchers like myself this will happen on GWR when the new Hitachi sets are up and running here in South Wales.
So where will it end?

The other issue is this one below

Will you dump your loans, credit cards, savings accounts, pension, sell your property too? It's all part of the capitalist system.

I dont have or intend to have a loan in what is left of my life (mostly because i cant afford to have one).

Credit cards, once i have paid off my credit card it will be destroyed and i will not take another one out.

My savings account has about £30 in it so its going to brake the bank.

I have been involved in a pension scheme since i started work, it was conditional to contribute as part of my employment.

If i sell my property where would then live? So i have no intentions of selling my house.

We live in a capitalist system so there is no way can get out of that,

 

[Flamingo]

I'm not an armchair expert. How many inquires have you given evidence at?

Ok, you know about signalling. It's your job, you should do.

However, you obviously know nothing about working on a train, and are not prepared to listen to those that do.

You are another one falling into the trap of thinking a train is a little blue box with a headcode in it on a screen, and working a train means getting the blue box moving...

 

[highdyke]

Ok, you know about signalling. It's your job, you should do.

However, you obviously know nothing about working on a train, and are not prepared to listen to those that do.

You are another one falling into the trap of thinking a train is a little blue box with a headcode in it on a screen, and working a train means getting the blue box moving...

You've not done half the jobs I've done (which includes signaller, controller etc), given evidence at public inquiries, dealt with crashes, been on loads of cab rides, been a passenger on virtually the whole network etc etc. Done loads of other jobs, far more skilled to boot.

Don't be so insulting, and debate the issues at hand.

 

[Haig paxton]

In axle counter area if you place Track Circuit clips down it will not put the signals to danger.

You don't know what you are talking about.

 

[highdyke]

You don't know what you are talking about.

Nor do you.

 

[74A]

You don't know what you are talking about.

Yes I do. Track Circuit clips will not put signals to danger in axle counter areas. Thats why you have to have GSMR to stop trains.

 

[bengley]

You don't know what you are talking about.

I agree with everything you're saying but you're wrong about track circuit clips.

In axle counter areas there are NO track circuits. The track circuit clips will have no effect on the signalling system as there is no track circuit for the clip to occupy.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

You've not done half the jobs I've done (which includes signaller, controller etc), given evidence at public inquiries, dealt with crashes, been on loads of cab rides, been a passenger on virtually the whole network etc etc. Done loads of other jobs, far more skilled to boot.

Don't be so insulting, and debate the issues at hand.

And you STILL don't know anything about the realities of being a guard and a driver on DOO, who's being insulting here ?

I know the rulebook, but I'm NOT a signaller and would not presume to pretend that I am qualified to discuss it on the signaling forum

Lot's of Cab rides ? What does THAT prove ?, Anyone can sit on the 2nd man's side looking at the view. I've been a passenger on the whole network, hell I have been a passnger on aircraft all over the world, I can actually fly, but as a PPL I'm not going to even think it qualifies me to tell a commercial, multi engine, jet pilot that he should fly POO
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree with everything you're saying but you're wrong about track circuit clips.

In axle counter areas there are NO track circuits. The track circuit clips will have no effect on the signalling system as there is no track circuit for the clip to occupy.

But they still have to be banged down !

 

[Haig paxton]

Nor do you.

Can you confirm that if a Guard or driver places a track circuit clip down in an area with axle counters then it will do absolutely nothing and the next train along the line cannot be stopped?

 

[bengley]

But they still have to be banged down !

Indeed, but this is only to prevent confusion - you may just be over the boundary of an axle counter area and within a TC area, so rather than wasting time checking your sectional appendix to find out you just lay the clips
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can you confirm that if a Guard or driver places a track circuit clip down in an area with axle counters then it will do absolutely nothing and the next train along the line cannot be stopped?

I can confirm this is the case. In an axle counter area a TC clip will do nothing.

 

[highdyke]

And you STILL don't know anything about the realities of being a guard and a driver on DOO, who's being insulting here ?

I know the rulebook, but I'm NOT a signaller and would not presume to pretend that I am qualified to discuss it on the signaling forum

Lot's of Cab rides ? What does THAT prove ?, Anyone can sit on the 2nd man's side looking at the view. I've been a passenger on the whole network, hell I have been a passnger on aircraft all over the world, I can actually fly, but as a PPL I'm not going to even think it qualifies me to tell a commercial, multi engine, jet pilot that he should fly POO

And according to you senior management, the DFT, ORR, RSSB are all mentally challenged.

Signallers rules cover all the sections of the rule book you are on about. Having actually dealt with far more incidents that you. yes I am better qualified. You are talking utter rubbish, one of your mates doesn't even know the basics of how axle counters work, let alone the intricacies of the signalling system.

 

[Flamingo]

You've not done half the jobs I've done (which includes signaller, controller etc), given evidence at public inquiries, dealt with crashes, been on loads of cab rides, been a passenger on virtually then whole network etc etc. Done loads of other jobs, far more skilled to boot.

Don't be so insulting, and debate the issues at hand.

The issue at hand, to remind you, is who is safer to control the doors of a train, and if a second safety critical member of staff is necessary on board a train.

I'm aproaching it from the point of view of knowing first-hand what that member of staff does, and potentially is needed to do.

You are aproaching it from the position of somebody who knows people who do the job, and obviously think what they do is unimportant.

This is probably because your job involves looking at a screen moving boxes around.

Mine involves looking out the window of those trains, interacting with all the people inside them, looking at everybody on the train and their requirements from the point of view of helping and protecting them.

When have you ever done that on a train? It's a whole different ball-game from sitting as a passenger (on a pass) looking at the other people sitting either side of you wondering when the First Class trolley is coming through.

If you find my posts insulting, I find yours patronising and arrogant. I don't tell you how to do your job - don't presume to tell me mine is worthless, as you have no idea what it is.

 

[74A]

Can you confirm that if a Guard or driver places a track circuit clip down in an area with axle counters then it will do absolutely nothing and the next train along the line cannot be stopped?

Yes that is correct. The next train along can only be stopped by use of GSMR emergency call.

 

[FordFocus]

Several points....

I think we've established that highdyke has done every job on the railway except actually work a train, let alone dispatch a train be it a DOO driver or a guard. So despite his protests, he has no experience of the risks of the platform train interface at first hand. I've had many signal box visits, doesn't mean I know how to signal or regulate trains...

GSM-R is needed for axle counter areas as there are no track circuits. GSM-R isn't perfect though, we went through this a couple of months ago. Remember the long discussion with one member that took many pages for him to admit he was 'mistaken' when the GSM-R system has no power to it (after the SE train hit a cow), it cannot send a DSD message nor stop trains with an emergency call despite his protests?

No one knows what the OBS job description will be. Is it a guard minus the door duties? Or an RPI with basic first aid training? One aim of the McNulty report and subsequent DfT statements is for TOCs to reduce the safety critical headcount i.e. cut staff and save money. OR in this case, change their job description and decrease the staff numbers. No need for spares any more?

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Indeed, but this is only to prevent confusion - you may just be over the boundary of an axle counter area and within a TC area, so rather than wasting time checking your sectional appendix to find out you just lay the clips
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I can confirm this is the case. In an axle counter area a TC clip will do nothing.

I will confirm this, You have to get the old TC clips, flags and dets and bang the clips down first on all affected lines, BUT they will do nothing in an axle counter area. Imagine sitting there thinking : "uMM do I put them down or not HERE ? "

 

[Domeyhead]

I agree, you really DON'T understand

Every job has elements that are not experienced by anyone not doing that job - there are aspects to being a milkman or a bus driver that you or I know nothing about, but pretending that passenger commentators know nothing at all - absolutely nothing whatsoever - about the workings of the railway or an on train worker's job and duties is asinine and arrogant. Many of those commentating will be regular rail users and will understand the difficulties when the unexpected occurs. This contempt of anyone who doesn't happen to be a guard (or driver) is particulalry galling when listening to the RMT's desire to cite "passenger safety" as a bargaining chip while treating those passengers with the such didain in their actions. I for example travelled on four separate Southern trains two weekends ago and on all the journeys I did not see the guard at all and two of these trains were only 4 coaches long. Perhaps if he or she was relieved of the onerous task of supervising the doors at every station they would have a more reassuring presence on the rest of the train where they were so conspicuously absent. My "safety" was neither here nor there with regard to the doors. If anything the mundane task of having to deal with them every 5 minutes probably compromised it for more vulnerable travellers.

 

[FordFocus]

I will confirm this, You have to get the old TC clips, flags and dets and bang the clips down first on all affected lines, BUT they will do nothing in an axle counter area. Imagine sitting there thinking : "uMM do I put them down or not HERE ? "

Ah I see what you mean Greyhound now. I'm taught in the same way, just put the clips down regardless. Hit the red button on your way out though

 

[highdyke]

If you find my posts insulting, I find yours patronising and arrogant. I don't tell you how to do your job - don't presume to tell me mine is worthless, as you have no idea what it is.

Well I've not told you your job is worthless nor to my knowledge have I been patronising or arrogant, just put an alternative point of view across mainly about line protection and dealing with incidents which I do know about.

I said a few posts back we need to move beyond insults, as it appears we can't there is no point in continuing.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

And according to you senior management, the DFT, ORR, RSSB are all mentally challenged.


Signallers rules cover all the sections of the rule book you are on about. Having actually dealt with far more incidents that you. yes I am better qualified. You are talking utter rubbish, one of your mates doesn't even know the basics of how axle counters work, let alone the intricacies of the signalling system.

Your words, not mine, I've had some superb managers, who have also been friends, railwaymen to the core, who started at teh bottom and worked their way up, doing ( almost, but clearly not quite ) as many jobs as you have done on the railway

Who's my mate ????????????????????????????????????????????? What DRIVING or GUARD incidents have you dealt with as a driver or guard ? I'm betting as many as I've dealt with a a signaller, yet I don't pretend to know it all

 

[Flamingo]

Well I've not told you your job is worthless nor to my knowledge have I been patronising or arrogant, just put an alternative point of view across mainly about line protection and dealing with incidents which I do know about.

I said a few posts back we need to move beyond insults, as it appears we can't there is no point in continuing.

If you find people pointing out the deficiencies in your knowledge base insulting, then there is not much point you continuing.

And I see you ignored the rest of my post - including the bit about sticking to the point...

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Every job has elements that are not experienced by anyone not doing that job - there are aspects to being a milkman or a bus driver that you or I know nothing about, but pretending that passenger commentators know nothing at all - absolutely nothing whatsoever - about the workings of the railway or an on train worker's job and duties is asinine and arrogant. Many of those commentating will be regular rail users and will understand the difficulties when the unexpected occurs. This contempt of anyone who doesn't happen to be a guard (or driver) is particulalry galling when listening to the RMT's desire to cite "passenger safety" as a bargaining chip while treating those passengers with the such didain in their actions. I for example travelled on four separate Southern trains two weekends ago and on all the journeys I did not see the guard at all and two of these trains were only 4 coaches long. Perhaps if he or she was relieved of the onerous task of supervising the doors at every station they would have a more reassuring presence on the rest of the train where they were so conspicuously absent. My "safety" was neither here nor there with regard to the doors. If anything the mundane task of having to deal with them every 5 minutes probably compromised it for more vulnerable travellers.

I've ridden on many a bus - next to the driver often, I worked on a milkround as a young lad until the milkman started mentioning me tasting his special cream at 0400 in the morning. BUT I don't pretend to tell bus drivers or milkmen that I know the merits of single deckers over double deckers and semi skimmed over full cream

You seriously wonder why you didn't see a Southern guard as a passenger on 4 trains this week ? Come on ? Put yourself in their position at the moment . Oh wait, that's de rigueur on this forum isn't it ?

Putting yourself in the position of people who actually have real experience of a role, and telling them you know the reality of it better than they do ?

And if you think we don't have passenger safety right at the very top of this whole flippin' argument, you know even less. I am seriously concerned about your safety on my train at all times, above anything else. It;s my profession and my ethos and my pride