Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[G136GREYHOUND]

I've signalled plenty and stopped 2 crashes. RSSB, the ORR, Most TOCs all agree statistically the argument is weak. We can agree to disagree about that if you like and that's fine.

I've watched repeatedly people getting very personal with those that disagree with each other, we need to move beyond that. "You have lead a sheltered life and need a serious sense of humor injection. " is just typical or the sort of language used to divert people from the real issues.

What does a signalman know about driving a DOO train and all that's involved risk wise with it ?

I've been in boxes when there were actually boxes, by the score and had tea and flicked through gentleman's interest mags in them all with your average friendly bobby, but I know zip about signalling other than you pull a few levers and go ding ding, and I would suggest you know equal zip about the reality of DOO -V-guard services as I know about the realities of signalling
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There is tech for to prevent doors opening on the wrong side on some DOO services. Emergency train protection with flags/dets etc very, very rarely happens (I've never know it to happen) it's only if the train crew cannot contact the signaller or the signaller cannot provide protection with signals or radio. Track circuit clips don't work on absolute block lines in general (where guards are normally applied) or on axle-counter lines.

There are a number of issues with "ding-ding" and away with guard operated trains. Moving the guard into the passenger area aiding with revening protection and customer help is an entirely sensible measure. The union should be looking at guarantees for this role, nothing else IMHO.

Once again, a post from someone who knows NOTHING about the realities of actually working DOO as a driver, or a guard, when you have, you'd be less keen to believe the propaganda

 

[Haig paxton]

There is tech for to prevent doors opening on the wrong side on some DOO services. Emergency train protection with flags/dets etc very, very rarely happens (I've never know it to happen) it's only if the train crew cannot contact the signaller or the signaller cannot provide protection with signals or radio. Track circuit clips don't work on absolute block lines in general (where guards are normally applied) or on axle-counter lines.

There are a number of issues with "ding-ding" and away with guard operated trains. Moving the guard into the passenger area aiding with revening protection and customer help is an entirely sensible measure. The union should be looking at guarantees for this role, nothing else IMHO.

Unbelievable. Track circuit clips work in track circuited areas, irrespective of whether there are axle counters or not. Railways are either track circuit block or absolute block, full stop. You fail to grasp that as soon as the Guard's role is diluted they cease to be Guards and cannot assist in emergencies.
Such ignorance...

 

[74A]

Unbelievable. Track circuit clips work in track circuited areas, irrespective of whether there are axle counters or not. Railways are either track circuit block or absolute block, full stop. You fail to grasp that as soon as the Guard's role is diluted they cease to be Guards and cannot assist in emergencies.
Such ignorance...

Track Circuit clips don't operate in axle counter areas. As all new signalling installations are axle counters the placing of Track Circuit clips will probably stop in the next few years. GSMR will become the method of stopping trains in an emergency.
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Why are people forgetting the main issue of a Guard carrying out their EMERGENCY TRAIN PROTECTION in the event of an incident and focussing on DOORS? This is exactly what GTR want people to bring it down to. Plus no one has mentioned my point about DOO trains having doors opened on the wrong side frequently.

People are focusing on the doors as that is all guards do on non DOO routes. All other duties are extra. If they were required then you would not have DOO.

 

[hwl]

Plus no one has mentioned my point about DOO trains having doors opened on the wrong side frequently.

Not all DOO is the same...
If you look back to very early on in this thread you will find this discussed.
Southern 377s have Automatic Selective Door Opening (ASDO) and Correct Side Door Opening (CSDO) using track mounted balises. (Other trains e.g. SN455s and other operators e.g. SE don't have this on their trains so may have issues with wrong side opening).

I and probably many others would be delighted to hear if you have evidence that these safety systems aren't working on 377s.

 

[highdyke]

Unbelievable. Track circuit clips work in track circuited areas, irrespective of whether there are axle counters or not. Railways are either track circuit block or absolute block, full stop. You fail to grasp that as soon as the Guard's role is diluted they cease to be Guards and cannot assist in emergencies.
Such ignorance...

1. Lines are not either track-circuit block or absolute block, there are several signalling systems in use.

2. Track-circuits are not provided everywhere, in TCB or AB areas.

3. OBS can and must assist in emergencies.

 

[hwl]

Track Circuit clips don't operate in axle counter areas. As all new signalling installations are axle counters the placing of Track Circuit clips will probably stop in the next few years. GSMR will become the method of stopping trains in an emergency.

Agree on GSMR but all the Thameslink work is using rather large amount of the newer type of track circuits...

 

[Harbon 1]

1. Lines are not either track-circuit block or absolute block, there are several signalling systems in use.

2. Track-circuits are not provided everywhere, in TCB or AB areas.

3. OBS can and must assist in emergencies.

On your third point, with them not being safety trained or having route knowledge, what help would an OBS be in an emergency other than holding peoples hand when they get off the train somewhere if it comes to that?

 

[SJN]

I'm a guard on a non DOO route and the doors are certainly not the only thing I do. My other duties are not considered as extra either. We are not there just to push a button now and then. We are there for the safety of the train and passengers and also customer service and revenue duties. There's quite a lot involved in the job.

 

[Haig paxton]

Track Circuit clips don't operate in axle counter areas. As all new signalling installations are axle counters the placing of Track Circuit clips will probably stop in the next few years. GSMR will become the method of stopping trains in an emergency.
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People are focusing on the doors as that is all guards do on non DOO routes. All other duties are extra. If they were required then you would not have DOO.

Are you seriously suggesting that in a multiple track layout in an area with axle counters, in the event of de-railment etc that track circuit clips WILL NOT WORK? What? You are saying clips layed on an adjacent line will not stop a train coming the other way because axle counters somehow prevent the clips from turning signals to danger? What utter rubbish.

 

[74A]

I'm a guard on a non DOO route and the doors are certainly not the only thing I do. My other duties are not considered as extra either. We are not there just to push a button now and then. We are there for the safety of the train and passengers and also customer service and revenue duties. There's quite a lot involved in the job.

With respect as a guard on a non DOO route the only thing you are required to be there for is to operate the doors. All the other things are nice extras but if they were required then DOO would not operate.

 

[Dave1987]

There is tech for to prevent doors opening on the wrong side on some DOO services. Emergency train protection with flags/dets etc very, very rarely happens (I've never know it to happen) it's only if the train crew cannot contact the signaller or the signaller cannot provide protection with signals or radio. Track circuit clips don't work on absolute block lines in general (where guards are normally applied) or on axle-counter lines.

There are a number of issues with "ding-ding" and away with guard operated trains. Moving the guard into the passenger area aiding with revening protection and customer help is an entirely sensible measure. The union should be looking at guarantees for this role, nothing else IMHO.

Can I ask what job you do on the railways?

 

[Haig paxton]

I'm a guard on a non DOO route and the doors are certainly not the only thing I do. My other duties are not considered as extra either. We are not there just to push a button now and then. We are there for the safety of the train and passengers and also customer service and revenue duties. There's quite a lot involved in the job.

You will never convince these armchair rail 'experts' on this forum. Their ignorance is breathtaking.

 

[Dave1987]

Track Circuit clips don't operate in axle counter areas. As all new signalling installations are axle counters the placing of Track Circuit clips will probably stop in the next few years. GSMR will become the method of stopping trains in an emergency.

But the GSMR never loses signal does it? Ow wait yes it does! On cloudy days it frequently loses signal.

 

[Harbon 1]

Are you seriously suggesting that in a multiple track layout in an area with axle counters, in the event of de-railment etc that track circuit clips WILL NOT WORK? What? You are saying clips layed on an adjacent line will not stop a train coming the other way because axle counters somehow prevent the clips from turning signals to danger? What utter rubbish.

I'm no expert but as I understand it axle counters work in the same way as track circuits, but the axle counter acts as the track circuit detecting the train, so there is no need for a track circuit.

 

[Haig paxton]

With respect as a guard on a non DOO route the only thing you are required to be there for is to operate the doors. All the other things are nice extras but if they were required then DOO would not operate.

No doubt if you are ever unfortunate enough to be involved in an accident aboard a DOO train where the driver is ten coaches away and dead, you'll be just fine since you seem to know precisely what to do, where to go and how to look after yourself. What about the hundreds of others on board?

 

[Harbon 1]

But the GSMR never loses signal does it? Ow wait yes it does! On cloudy days it frequently loses signal.

Or trips out in the event of an obstruction on the line

 

[philthetube]

On your third point, with them not being safety trained or having route knowledge, what help would an OBS be in an emergency other than holding peoples hand when they get off the train somewhere if it comes to that?

an untrained OBS would just be another body for trained staff to look after.

 

[Dave1987]

1. Lines are not either track-circuit block or absolute block, there are several signalling systems in use.

2. Track-circuits are not provided everywhere, in TCB or AB areas.

3. OBS can and must assist in emergencies.

As an OBS is a glorified RPI they will be more of a hindrance than a help in an emergency with no rules or traction knowledge.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Track Circuit clips don't operate in axle counter areas. As all new signalling installations are axle counters the placing of Track Circuit clips will probably stop in the next few years. GSMR will become the method of stopping trains in an emergency.
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People are focusing on the doors as that is all guards do on non DOO routes. All other duties are extra. If they were required then you would not have DOO.

So that's ALL a guard does on a non DOO route ???????????? Are you actually serious ?

 

[Harbon 1]

With respect as a guard on a non DOO route the only thing you are required to be there for is to operate the doors. All the other things are nice extras but if they were required then DOO would not operate.

Adding 'with respect' in my eyes makes this post no less demeaning that it would already be. Guards are trained to protect the train in the event of an emergency, but no that's just a 'nice little extra.'

 

[highdyke]

I'm no expert but as I understand it axle counters work in the same way as track circuits, but the axle counter acts as the track circuit detecting the train, so there is no need for a track circuit.

Axle counters count axles going in and out of a section, track circuit clips do not work.

Route knowledge for guards is mainly required for train protection. As someone said, this is been superseded by GSM-R. Of course there are other requirements to run DOO.

 

[Haig paxton]

I'm no expert but as I understand it axle counters work in the same way as track circuits, but the axle counter acts as the track circuit detecting the train, so there is no need for a track circuit.

We are talking about the placing of clips on adjacent lines to turn signals to danger. How can an axle counter detect that a train is speeding towards another de-railed train? It can't, hence why track circuit clips must be put down before any other action is taken to prevent something bad getting worse. Axle counters are not relevant here.

 

[Harbon 1]

As an OBS is a glorified RPI they will be more of a hindrance than a help in an emergency with no rules or traction knowledge.

an untrained OBS would just be another body for trained staff to look after.

That's exactly what I'm thinking.

I've been put on an assembly stage at work to 'help out' in the place of people being off work, but I don't know what I'm doing and i end up asking for help all the time.
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We are talking about the placing of clips on adjacent lines to turn signals to danger. How can an axle counter detect that a train is speeding towards another de-railed train? It can't, hence why track circuit clips must be put down before any other action is taken to prevent something bad getting worse. Axle counters are not relevant here.

Yes where there are track circuits that operate the signals. TCs are occupied, on or off, they don't detect speed, they detect occupation, the same as an axle counter.

Anyway, we're off topic.

 

[highdyke]

You will never convince these armchair rail 'experts' on this forum. Their ignorance is breathtaking.

I'm not an armchair expert. How many inquires have you given evidence at?

 

[74A]

Adding 'with respect' in my eyes makes this post no less demeaning that it would already be. Guards are trained to protect the train in the event of an emergency, but no that's just a 'nice little extra.'

Since 1984 when DOO started it has no longer been required to operate a train with a guard on board. Having a driver is sufficient to provide protection for a train in the event of an emergency. So if you have a guard who is trained in protection that that is extra above what it required.

 

[Haig paxton]

Since 1984 when DOO started it has no longer been required to operate a train with a guard on board. Having a driver is sufficient to provide protection for a train in the event of an emergency. So if you have a guard who is trained in protection that that is extra above what it required.

Thanks for clearing that up pal, the RMT and ASLEF should drop it should they?

 

[Dave1987]

Since 1984 when DOO started it has no longer been required to operate a train with a guard on board. Having a driver is sufficient to provide protection for a train in the event of an emergency. So if you have a guard who is trained in protection that that is extra above what it required.

So what about the latest rule book update then?

 

[highdyke]

But the GSMR never loses signal does it? Ow wait yes it does! On cloudy days it frequently loses signal.

It's a damn site better than the days with no mobile communications where the guard had to work out where to lay detonators and run to the nearest fixed telephone or signalbox.
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Thanks for clearing that up pal, the RMT and ASLEF should drop it should they?

They should come to a sensible agreement based on statistical evidence drawn from 30 plus years of operating experience.

 

[SJN]

Well I wish someone would tell my manager that I'm only there to do the doors and nothing else. I am a fully trained safety critical member of staff. I do my rules and PTS every two years and have regular assessments. I am trained in how to handle an emergency, either with the driver, or without if they are unable to do anything because of injury. An OBS would not be able to do any of these things as they are purely customer service and revenue, which is something I am expected to do as well. Its not an optional extra.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Now I know the railway does attract some of the more mentally and physically challenged in society, but whilst the depth of ignorance about what actually is involved in DOO and non DOO train operation is totally understandable, the fact that so many comment on it when they know nothing about it and have never done a guard's or driver's job is just risible if it were not such a serious subject to railwaymen.

I have a PPL, but you don;t find me commenting about commercial pilots practices on the PP Prune forums. I've held numerous severed limb stumps, but I am still not a paramedic and you don't find me telling paramedics on the paramedic forum nonsense from a position of ignorance.

Questions, I can understand, but to talk such drivel about something you have never, and will never do beggars belief !

try evacuating a train in an emergency as a DOO driver in the dark on a 4 track, 100 mile per hour, 3rd rail layout and tell me a guard is useless.

have some drunken thug drying to smash his way into your cab as you do 90 MPH because he thought he was stopping at X station and didn't have a guard to make an announcement to that effect

Try having a screaming woman hammer on your cab door as you pull up to a red shouting that someone's trying to attack her

There is so much more to DOO and doors than you armchair wonders can ever imagine