Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[NSEFAN]

Mr Horton cannot be vindicated. Someone of his capabilities should not be in charge of a railway franchise again. First Connex and now Southern, this guy has the Midas touch of turning everything rotten.

I didn't know that Horton was involved in Connex, so I googled "Connex South Central Horton", and this article from 2001 is the first result.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1337138/Secret-rail-dossier-of-commuter-chaos.html

It would seem that a lot of that article could have "Connex" replaced with "GTR" and be completely believeable!

 

[highdyke]

He does love railways. Someone of his capabilities could easily get a job away from the rails with much more money & zero flack.
Look at his grilling on the select committee website. There was a little smile of pure pleasure & pride when he was at last able to talk about something positive,the new 700 units. And you can spot a similar little smile of delight when he talked about the 4th down track coming back soon at Bermondsey junc. He is a rail enthusiast through & through. This must have been a terrible time for him & his family. Hopefully he will be vindicated in late August! We even had a savage saying he wouldn't deter thugs from beating Mr Horton up in a dark alley.

I feel very sorry for railway management at times. This was a fairly simple change, no redundancies, no pay cuts, met with outright resistance from a hostile (often thuggish) union.

All businesses have to change with the times, money has to be spent efficiently and responsibly. Thus to attract investment from stakeholders such as shareholders, partners, local or central government. It has to be cost effective from a users point of view too, else consumers switch to other products and services.

The outright hostility to shareholders is symptomatic of an ideological union like the RMT. Who on earth invests money is something that produces no return? Do you buy a house and expect it never to gain value, or put money into a savings account and lose money? Of course you don't.

The whole situation is incredibly sad and upsetting. I keep telling myself most railwaymen and women are incredibly decent, understanding, intelligent people. The minority of ideologues are going to spoil it for everyone. There is no magic money tree. Nationalisation resulted in decades of traffic loss, strikes, and a slow moving industry that was just not able to take on the challenges from other modes in the post war era.

If you really love the railway, decent thinking people should link together and find a way forward.

 

[DarloRich]

He does love railways. Someone of his capabilities could easily get a job away from the rails with much more money & zero flack.
Look at his grilling on the select committee website. There was a little smile of pure pleasure & pride when he was at last able to talk about something positive,the new 700 units. And you can spot a similar little smile of delight when he talked about the 4th down track coming back soon at Bermondsey junc. He is a rail enthusiast through & through. This must have been a terrible time for him & his family. Hopefully he will be vindicated in late August! We even had a savage saying he wouldn't deter thugs from beating Mr Horton up in a dark alley.

ah - the GTR house elf

He got a very easy ride from the select committee compared to some I have seen. Consider the grilling the former head of the ORR got. Horton and co got off lightly.

I feel very sorry for railway management at times. This was a fairly simple change, no redundancies, no pay cuts, met with outright resistance from a hostile (often thuggish) union.

All businesses have to change with the times, money has to be spent efficiently and responsibly. Thus to attract investment from stakeholders such as shareholders, partners, local or central government. It has to be cost effective from a users point of view too, else consumers switch to other products and services.

The outright hostility to shareholders is symptomatic of an ideological union like the RMT. Who on earth invests money is something that produces no return? Do you buy a house and expect it never to gain value, or put money into a savings account and lose money? Of course you don't.

The whole situation is incredibly sad and upsetting. I keep telling myself most railwaymen and women are incredibly decent, understanding, intelligent people. The minority of ideologues are going to spoil it for everyone. There is no magic money tree. Nationalisation resulted in decades of traffic loss, strikes, and a slow moving industry that was just not able to take on the challenges from other modes in the post war era.

If you really love the railway, decent thinking people should link together and find a way forward.

I don't feel sorry for them. They take home a fortune, carry little personal responsibility and seem to be on a merry go round of similar jobs and nice remuneration packages.

Of course change is a part of life and especially business. The problem is how the management of GTR ( and thier DfT puppet masters) implement and manage that change. They have done so in the most inept, supercilious and cack handed fashion which makes things much worse than need be! Sensible, mature, open talks (on both sides) with a view to seeking a consensus are so much better.

It never ceases to amaze me how few senior managers need the be made redundant during re orgainsations. The main issue is that pain and stress of changes rarely seems to reach or impact on them. If it did they might understand the suspicion, cynicism and hostility they then face from people under them. People simply don't believe that there will not be job cuts, reductions in terms or detrimental changes to T&C. I have no connection with this dispute and I don't believe them! Trains will run more often with no staff on them except the driver, no matter what promises are given. Once this start the OBS role becomes an additional role and therefor ripe for cuts.

BTW I assume your way forward for "decent thinking people" means that employees should know thier place and not dare to question senior managers or, god forbid, seek to defend thier rights!

 

[highdyke]

ah - the GTR house elf

He got a very easy ride from the select committee compared to some I have seen. Consider the grilling the former head of the ORR got. Horton and co got off lightly.



I don't feel sorry for them. They take home a fortune, carry little personal responsibility and seem to be on a merry go round of similar jobs and nice remuneration packages.

Of course change is a part of life and especially business. The problem is how the management of GTR ( and thier DfT puppet masters) implement and manage that change. They have done so in the most inept and cack handed fashion

It never ceases to amaze me how few senior managers need the be made redundant during re orgainsations. The main issue is that pain and stress rarely seems to reach or impact on them. If it did they might understand the suspicion, cynicism and hostility they then face from people under them.

BTW I assume your way forward for "decent thinking people" means that employees should know thier place and not dare to question senior managers or, god forbid, seek to defend thier rights!

Well put it like this, the railway is generally not a good investment and would collapse if there was no government input for the most part. Are you seriously arguing the DFT should not seek to limit tax payers exposure, or should we just throw good money after bad? Over 50% of the public never use railways, outside the major metropolitian railways play a very minor role indeed in our transport provision. The DFT have to be seen to be spending OUR money in a cost effective manner. BRT, LRT and roads all compete for cash.

Employees are employees. They should be consulted and respected, they are not there to run businesses. There is nothing to stop them starting one of their own!

I don't feel sorry for them. They take home a fortune, carry little personal responsibility and seem to be on a merry go round of similar jobs and nice remuneration packages.

Apply for the job yourself. I don't fancy running a large business like GTR, especially in a really difficult industry like Rail. It's a huge responsibility.

I admire business people, creatives, engineers, people who make things, bring products to market.

I also respect people with hugely responsible jobs, turning out all hours like many railways staff.

That's why it's so sad!

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

He does love railways. Someone of his capabilities could easily get a job away from the rails with much more money & zero flack.
Look at his grilling on the select committee website. There was a little smile of pure pleasure & pride when he was at last able to talk about something positive,the new 700 units. And you can spot a similar little smile of delight when he talked about the 4th down track coming back soon at Bermondsey junc. He is a rail enthusiast through & through. This must have been a terrible time for him & his family. Hopefully he will be vindicated in late August! We even had a savage saying he wouldn't deter thugs from beating Mr Horton up in a dark alley.

Do you know, I had to read this 4 times to actually believe what you've actually written and when it had sunk in, almost need to reach for a bowl to be sick in ! Your tongue must be brown right back to your epiglottis, I have never read such blind sychophancy before, a "small smile of pleasure " ?

FFS !

 

[Flamingo]

He does love railways. Someone of his capabilities could easily get a job away from the rails with much more money & zero flack.
Look at his grilling on the select committee website. There was a little smile of pure pleasure & pride when he was at last able to talk about something positive,the new 700 units. And you can spot a similar little smile of delight when he talked about the 4th down track coming back soon at Bermondsey junc. He is a rail enthusiast through & through. This must have been a terrible time for him & his family. Hopefully he will be vindicated in late August! We even had a savage saying he wouldn't deter thugs from beating Mr Horton up in a dark alley.

If he could get a job away from the railways, he would and should have. The fact that he didn't means he can't.

His capabilities and record is that he is good at passing the buck up, down or sideways - we have all worked with (and for) managers that appear to be Teflon-coated. He is obviously one of them. It usualy involves a personality verging on the sociopathic. I have never met him, but have had the misfortune to meet and work for similar.

I hope it has been a terrible time tor him and his family, they deserve it, and he's paid enough to take it. God knows, it's been a terrible time for enough other people, his unfortunate staff and unfortunate customers, none of whom asked for the **** he has been responsible for putting them through, so don't dare come here all hollier-than-thou about the nasty people being horrible to your little diddums. He's a big boy and brought it on himself, and doubtless he has a few cushy quangos lines up for services rendered by his mares in the DfT. He can take the money from them as consolation, although I seriously doubt if he has trouble sleeping at night. His sort never do.

I'm afrad I save all my sympathy for the "collateral damage" in this disute, the workers and customers, as I'm sure most right-thinking people do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well put it like this, the railway is generally not a good investment and would collapse if there was no government input for the most part. Are you seriously arguing the DFT should not seek to limit tax payers exposure, or should we just throw good money after bad? Over 50% of the public never use railways, outside the major metropolitian railways play a very minor role indeed in our transport provision. The DFT have to be seen to be spending OUR money in a cost effective manner. BRT, LRT and roads all compete for cash.

Employees are employees. They should be consulted and respected, they are not there to run businesses. There is nothing to stop them starting one of their own!



Apply for the job yourself. I don't fancy running a large business like GTR, especially in a really difficult industry like Rail. It's a huge responsibility.

I admire business people, creatives, engineers, people who make things, bring products to market.

I also respect people with hugely responsible jobs, turning out all hours like many railways staff.

That's why it's so sad!

If the government want the best return on tax-payers money, they should be looking at the safest, highest quality service that can be provided. Not on the cheapest short-cuts that can be made.

You are right, managers are there to manage - and employees have the right to be managed in an effective and responsible manner, not ****ed about from pillar to post on a whim, and made scapegoat for management failures.

And if you want huge responsibility, try working a train, knowing that one mistake or misjudgement could result in the death or injury of one or dozens of people, and at the very least, you losing your livelihood and/or liberty. I haven't seen many TOC directors being done for manslaughter when it all goes wrong.

 

[Antman]

I feel very sorry for railway management at times. This was a fairly simple change, no redundancies, no pay cuts, met with outright resistance from a hostile (often thuggish) union.

All businesses have to change with the times, money has to be spent efficiently and responsibly. Thus to attract investment from stakeholders such as shareholders, partners, local or central government. It has to be cost effective from a users point of view too, else consumers switch to other products and services.

The outright hostility to shareholders is symptomatic of an ideological union like the RMT. Who on earth invests money is something that produces no return? Do you buy a house and expect it never to gain value, or put money into a savings account and lose money? Of course you don't.

The whole situation is incredibly sad and upsetting. I keep telling myself most railwaymen and women are incredibly decent, understanding, intelligent people. The minority of ideologues are going to spoil it for everyone. There is no magic money tree. Nationalisation resulted in decades of traffic loss, strikes, and a slow moving industry that was just not able to take on the challenges from other modes in the post war era.

If you really love the railway, decent thinking people should link together and find a way forward.

I think you make some very good points and I don't always go along with the notion that management are 'the enemy'!

 

[Dave1987]

I feel very sorry for railway management at times. This was a fairly simple change, no redundancies, no pay cuts, met with outright resistance from a hostile (often thuggish) union.

All businesses have to change with the times, money has to be spent efficiently and responsibly. Thus to attract investment from stakeholders such as shareholders, partners, local or central government. It has to be cost effective from a users point of view too, else consumers switch to other products and services.

The outright hostility to shareholders is symptomatic of an ideological union like the RMT. Who on earth invests money is something that produces no return? Do you buy a house and expect it never to gain value, or put money into a savings account and lose money? Of course you don't.

The whole situation is incredibly sad and upsetting. I keep telling myself most railwaymen and women are incredibly decent, understanding, intelligent people. The minority of ideologues are going to spoil it for everyone. There is no magic money tree. Nationalisation resulted in decades of traffic loss, strikes, and a slow moving industry that was just not able to take on the challenges from other modes in the post war era.

If you really love the railway, decent thinking people should link together and find a way forward.

Why did it take them so long to "guarantee" the OBS for the period of the franchise? Why did it take so long for them to say they don't want to run without an OBS onboard? Is it because of the media pressure and that they don't really want this OBS role to survive but had to give some good sound bites to the media?

 

[HowardGWR]

I think you make some very good points and I don't always go along with the notion that management are 'the enemy'!

I've been thinking of the late Bob Crow. He was quite capable of the hyperbolic rhetoric, of course, yet I can't help feeling that under his leadership, both drivers and OBS'ers (were guards) would now be a lot better off.

Just a hunch and I wonder if any of you have had a similar feeling.

 

[highdyke]

If he could get a job away from the railways, he would and should have. The fact that he didn't means he can't.

His capabilities and record is that he is good at passing the buck up, down or sideways - we have all worked with (and for) managers that appear to be Teflon-coated. He is obviously one of them. It usualy involves a personality verging on the sociopathic. I have never met him, but have had the misfortune to meet and work for similar.

I hope it has been a terrible time tor him and his family, they deserve it, and he's paid enough to take it. God knows, it's been a terrible time for enough other people, his unfortunate staff and unfortunate customers, none of whom asked for the **** he has been responsible for putting them through, so don't dare come here all hollier-than-thou about the nasty people being horrible to your little diddums. He's a big boy and brought it on himself, and doubtless he has a few cushy quangos lines up for services rendered by his mares in the DfT. He can take the money from them as consolation, although I seriously doubt if he has trouble sleeping at night. His sort never do.

I'm afrad I save all my sympathy for the "collateral damage" in this disute, the workers and customers, as I'm sure most right-thinking people do.

I'm not making any judgements about Charles Horton I don't know the man at all and I happen to think he's in a difficult position. Are are indeed his customers and staff.

I have a serious question?

What would you do? We have a tightening public purse, you are competing to run a franchise, or sign an agreement with the DFT who mainly write the rules.

The DFT have to balance spending on all transport modes, but want a greater return from rail. The DFT sees cost savings and enhanced customer service and revenue protection with DOO and writes it into the spec.

Two Trade unions issue public statements saying no more DOO, in fact we want guards on every train. Technology is moving on all the time.

The industry returns about £350 million "profit" a year, staff costs are directly £3 billion.

You have the tools of productivity, innovation, marketing.

We have several competing groups: Shareholders who want a return else they will invest elsewhere, Passengers want decent services and value for mone,y staff want decent pay and conditions and the DFT want value for money.

How would you play it?

I've thought about it a lot, and I really don't know.

 

[philthetube]

I feel very sorry for railway management at times. This was a fairly simple change, no redundancies, no pay cuts, met with outright resistance from a hostile (often thuggish) union.

All businesses have to change with the times, money has to be spent efficiently and responsibly. Thus to attract investment from stakeholders such as shareholders, partners, local or central government. It has to be cost effective from a users point of view too, else consumers switch to other products and services.

The outright hostility to shareholders is symptomatic of an ideological union like the RMT. Who on earth invests money is something that produces no return? Do you buy a house and expect it never to gain value, or put money into a savings account and lose money? Of course you don't.

The whole situation is incredibly sad and upsetting. I keep telling myself most railwaymen and women are incredibly decent, understanding, intelligent people. The minority of ideologues are going to spoil it for everyone. There is no magic money tree. Nationalisation resulted in decades of traffic loss, strikes, and a slow moving industry that was just not able to take on the challenges from other modes in the post war era.

If you really love the railway, decent thinking people should link together and find a way forward.

I can't feel sorry for the management, because they are either lying about the effect of the changes or they are making changes for the sake of it

You would not ruin a business for months for the sake of minor alterations which would have little or no effect on the service provided and save pennies.

 

[LBSCR Times]

I think you make some very good points and I don't always go along with the notion that management are 'the enemy'!

This is one of the problems with industrial relations in this country.
Instead of working together for the good of the company AND the workers, it's a 'them and us' all the time.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not making any judgements about Charles Horton I don't know the man at all....

I've known him since Connex days, and I've always found him approachable and fair.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm not making any judgements about Charles Horton I don't know the man at all and I happen to think he's in a difficult position. Are are indeed his customers and staff.

I have a serious question?

What would you do? We have a tightening public purse, you are competing to run a franchise, or sign an agreement with the DFT who mainly write the rules.

The DFT have to balance spending on all transport modes, but want a greater return from rail. The DFT sees cost savings and enhanced customer service and revenue protection with DOO and writes it into the spec.

Two Trade unions issue public statements saying no more DOO, in fact we want guards on every train. Technology is moving on all the time.

The industry returns about £350 million "profit" a year, staff costs are directly £3 billion.

You have the tools of productivity, innovation, marketing.

We have several competing groups: Shareholders who want a return else they will invest elsewhere, Passengers want decent services and value for mone,y staff want decent pay and conditions and the DFT want value for money.

How would you play it?

I've thought about it a lot, and I really don't know.

Well, for a start I would look at the elephant in the room that is Network Rail. I would then look at maximising revenue by clamping down on fare evasion, fare avoidance, and exploitation of loopholes.

Both of these would be politically unpopular, Network Rail as both it is the DfT's baby, so to speak, and also because the vast sums it spends on outside contractors have got nothing like the oversight that TOC's have (and somebody, somewhere, is taking that money).

And as regards increasing revenue, that upsets voters. A token effort is made, but serious efforts are not, which I witness day after day. A serious investment in rebenue protection would pay for itself several times over - but will never happen.

 

[313103]

I feel very sorry for railway management at times. This was a fairly simple change, no redundancies, no pay cuts, met with outright resistance from a hostile (often thuggish) union.

All businesses have to change with the times, money has to be spent efficiently and responsibly. Thus to attract investment from stakeholders such as shareholders, partners, local or central government. It has to be cost effective from a users point of view too, else consumers switch to other products and services.

The outright hostility to shareholders is symptomatic of an ideological union like the RMT. Who on earth invests money is something that produces no return? Do you buy a house and expect it never to gain value, or put money into a savings account and lose money? Of course you don't.

The whole situation is incredibly sad and upsetting. I keep telling myself most railwaymen and women are incredibly decent, understanding, intelligent people. The minority of ideologues are going to spoil it for everyone. There is no magic money tree. Nationalisation resulted in decades of traffic loss, strikes, and a slow moving industry that was just not able to take on the challenges from other modes in the post war era.

If you really love the railway, decent thinking people should link together and find a way forward.

I dont feel sorry for railway management, they on the whole are not people who love the railway, they are handsomely rewarded with 6 figure salaries, a golden pot of a pension, and unlimited free rail travel in first class. They also know when they go into railway management they aint going to treat people like they have just stepped into some dog muck on the floor.

Wow are speaking of a trade union dispute of the 1970s or one of 21st century? because what you have put up i thought i was being transferred back to the 1970s and in some of what you say your ignorance or naivety shows that!

First you say its a fairly simple change, then you say money has to be saved, in this case to save money it isnt going to be a simple change. The only way to save money in the modern world which you seem to like is to either put all your staff on a zero hours contract or get rid of them, simples really or is it simple?

Why if businesses have to change is it the staff who pay the highest price?

Why is it also that when a union does the job its members elected them to and that is to protect there jobs and terms and conditions, they are then regarded as hostile and thuggish? Never met any thuggish management yet have you?, i have on numerous occasions throughout my career, they are worse then what your so called thuggish and hostile trade unions can do.

I bought a house to live in it not to sell it, mind you and no doubt XDM will let you know that London Overground payed for the deposit i couldnt care if the value decreases or increases anyway, its over the top money anyway. If i wanted to buy a house to sell i would go into property development.

I would like to think that i am a nice railwayman despite what ive been through, i still have soft spot for it, i do my job professionally again though XDM might have a different opinion on that, i enjoy the job i currently do, even though its a struggle and means working long hours, because i work the average railway workers wage which is £22,000 PA.

I think you will find most railway trade unionist's like myself love the railway to, but of course you dont hear that do you, you think we go round a back alley and beat up the local manager or shareholder.

I suppose what your really saying to those who work in and love the railway, is to accept your lot in life and do what management want at a whim or get out.

See simple when you put like that.

 

[Dave1987]

Modern day management see the unions as the enemy and not the staff representatives. It's very sad when you listen to the old boys say they hate the industry they have worked in for decades and they cannot wait to retire. Modern day managers haven't worked their way up the food chain but are uni grads fast tracked into management. Staff are just a payroll number, a resource to be used or got rid according to the business case.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I dont feel sorry for railway management, they on the whole are not people who love the railway, they are handsomely rewarded with 6 figure salaries, a golden pot of a pension, and unlimited free rail travel in first class. They also know when they go into railway management they aint going to treat people like they have just stepped into some dog muck on the floor.

Wow are speaking of a trade union dispute of the 1970s or one of 21st century? because what you have put up i thought i was being transferred back to the 1970s and in some of what you say your ignorance or naivety shows that!

First you say its a fairly simple change, then you say money has to be saved, in this case to save money it isnt going to be a simple change. The only way to save money in the modern world which you seem to like is to either put all your staff on a zero hours contract or get rid of them, simples really or is it simple?

Why if businesses have to change is it the staff who pay the highest price?

Why is it also that when a union does the job its members elected them to and that is to protect there jobs and terms and conditions, they are then regarded as hostile and thuggish? Never met any thuggish management yet have you?, i have on numerous occasions throughout my career, they are worse then what your so called thuggish and hostile trade unions can do.

I bought a house to live in it not to sell it, mind you and no doubt XDM will let you know that London Overground payed for the deposit i couldnt care if the value decreases or increases anyway, its over the top money anyway. If i wanted to buy a house to sell i would go into property development.

I would like to think that i am a nice railwayman despite what ive been through, i still have soft spot for it, i do my job professionally again though XDM might have a different opinion on that, i enjoy the job i currently do, even though its a struggle and means working long hours, because i work the average railway workers wage which is £22,000 PA.

I think you will find most railway trade unionist's like myself love the railway to, but of course you dont hear that do you, you think we go round a back alley and beat up the local manager or shareholder.

I suppose what your really saying to those who work in and love the railway, is to accept your lot in life and do what management want at a whim or get out.

See simple when you put like that.

Here, here

 

[FordFocus]

Horton did a sideways move from Southeastern, a franchise that's steady enough as it's towards the end of the franchise to something that's too big and in a mess before it even started. He's had years of experience and should have learnt from Connex days about the dangers of running on too little staff and known infrastructure constraints. If I was in his position, I would have politely declined the offer from the chaps from Newcastle and stuck at Southeastern.

I'm sure he was aware of what he was taking on as First left Great Northern and Thameslink with a lack of drivers and a future training backlog from resignalling schemes and new fleets. This coupled with Govia bidding for an enhanced weekend service like Moorgate made things very stretched, see other topics on the subject. Can't blame Horton for this but that's his superiors and the DfT for not foreseeing problems.


Any railway manager with any experience knows if you propose to remove operational duties away from guards, the RMT will be in immediate dispute. Southern left vacancies unfilled for guards and relied on overtime. When the guards walked out, GTR banned overtime and shot themselves spectacularly in the foot. They then turned the gun to their head and pulled the trigger again, by destroying whatever morale the staff had left by withdrawing their passes and car parking. That's Horton and Crowther's doing and that part can be blamed on them.

Obviously the DfT are pulling a lot of strings. Someone posted in another topic about the new Transport Secretary Chris Grayling mentioning the DfT having their fingers all over of what should be the business of a private company on their day to day running.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I feel very sorry for railway management at times. This was a fairly simple change, no redundancies, no pay cuts, met with outright resistance from a hostile (often thuggish) union.

All businesses have to change with the times, money has to be spent efficiently and responsibly. Thus to attract investment from stakeholders such as shareholders, partners, local or central government. It has to be cost effective from a users point of view too, else consumers switch to other products and services.

The outright hostility to shareholders is symptomatic of an ideological union like the RMT. Who on earth invests money is something that produces no return? Do you buy a house and expect it never to gain value, or put money into a savings account and lose money? Of course you don't.

The whole situation is incredibly sad and upsetting. I keep telling myself most railwaymen and women are incredibly decent, understanding, intelligent people. The minority of ideologues are going to spoil it for everyone. There is no magic money tree. Nationalisation resulted in decades of traffic loss, strikes, and a slow moving industry that was just not able to take on the challenges from other modes in the post war era.

If you really love the railway, decent thinking people should link together and find a way forward.

A very simple change ? A very simple change ? DOO is a very simple change ? For who ? Only thing you have right is that we really do care for the railway, care enough not to want to see safety degraded with DOO and no guards

 

[Flamingo]

I've known him since Connex days, and I've always found him approachable and fair.

I'm sure his family love him dearly, he's kind to stray animals, and he donates to his local school choir when they are carol-singing at Christmas.

However, he is ultimatly responsible for all this (or least for doing the DfT's bidding).

One salient point - if he's that good at his job and as knowledgable about the railway as you (and XDM) claim, he must know that there is much more to having a guard on a train than who is "pushing a button", as he calls it.

Therefore he is either a liar or a fool. You pick.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

I'm sure his family love him dearly, he's kind to stray animals, and he donates to his local school choir when they are carol-singing at Christmas.

However, he is ultimatly responsible for all this (or least for doing the DfT's bidding).

One salient point - if he's that good at his job and as knowledgable about the railway as you (and XDM) claim, he must know that there is much more to having a guard on a train than who is "pushing a button", as he calls it.

Therefore he is either a liar or a fool. You pick.

Did you miss an "R" out of that ?

 

[highdyke]

I dont feel sorry for railway management, they on the whole are not people who love the railway, they are handsomely rewarded with 6 figure salaries, a golden pot of a pension, and unlimited free rail travel in first class. They also know when they go into railway management they aint going to treat people like they have just stepped into some dog muck on the floor.

My experience is some are very good, some are terrible. The railway is not alone in that.

Wow are speaking of a trade union dispute of the 1970s or one of 21st century? because what you have put up i thought i was being transferred back to the 1970s and in some of what you say your ignorance or naivety shows that!

Ignorance? I have lived all over the country, worked for the railways, worked for big companies, small companies, franchises, ran businesses. Lived in some of the best off places in the UK, and some of the worst. Sat at dinners with millionaires, had takeaways with some of the poorest people. I've been on strike, been a member of several trade unions.

I'd argue have a a much more rounded view of the world than many.

First you say its a fairly simple change, then you say money has to be saved, in this case to save money it isnt going to be a simple change. The only way to save money in the modern world which you seem to like is to either put all your staff on a zero hours contract or get rid of them, simples really or is it simple?

People are not being put on zero hours contacts, nor do I agree with them. I've actually been on a zero hours contract too.

In the grand scheme of things it is a relatively simple change. For more complex changes have happened in the past with other grades.

Why if businesses have to change is it the staff who pay the highest price?

Because businesses have to change, else they go out of business, without business there is no economy, unless you subscribe to the horribly inefficient planned economy. Most business are extremely small, 99.3% in fact, are classed as small businesses in the UK. Nobody really wants to make people redundant, change, or reduce salaries, but things change, sometimes not for the better.

Why is it also that when a union does the job its members elected them to and that is to protect there jobs and terms and conditions, they are then regarded as hostile and thuggish? Never met any thuggish management yet have you?, i have on numerous occasions throughout my career, they are worse then what your so called thuggish and hostile trade unions can do.

Both the RMT and ASLEF put a line in the sand and on some TOCs balloting for strike action, rather than sit around the table and discuss changes. RMT press releases are universally hostile to railway management, private industry, certain political parties, etc. Some people here wish bad things would happen to their colleagues simply for making changes, which most businesses have to make from time-to-time.

I bought a house to live in it not to sell it, mind you and no doubt XDM will let you know that London Overground payed for the deposit i couldnt care if the value decreases or increases anyway, its over the top money anyway. If i wanted to buy a house to sell i would go into property development.

Will you dump your loans, credit cards, savings accounts, pension, sell your property too? It's all part of the capitalist system.

I would like to think that i am a nice railwayman despite what ive been through, i still have soft spot for it, i do my job professionally again though XDM might have a different opinion on that, i enjoy the job i currently do, even though its a struggle and means working long hours, because i work the average railway workers wage which is £22,000 PA.

I'm 100% sure you are.

II think you will find most railway trade unionist's like myself love the railway to, but of course you dont hear that do you, you think we go round a back alley and beat up the local manager or shareholder.

No I'm not that black and white, the vast majority are decent people protecting their pay and conditions.

I suppose what your really saying to those who work in and love the railway, is to accept your lot in life and do what management want at a whim or get out.

You know that's not the case at all. But you also know, at some point, with all things, people will have to talk through problems, and come to a sensible solution in the interests of (hopefully) everyone.

See simple when you put like that.

Except it's not black and white nor simple. BTW this is not leading anywhere, I'm genuinely interested why people think mangers are the root of all evil, and there cannot be a better solution.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A very simple change ? A very simple change ? DOO is a very simple change ? For who ? Only thing you have right is that we really do care for the railway, care enough not to want to see safety degraded with DOO and no guards

Well there is going to be people on trains (maybe there should be more guarantees) and the safety argument is weak.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Did you miss an "R" out of that ?

This is typical of the sort of bullying on forums and behind the scenes in trade unions in real life.

 

[Robertj21a]

My experience is some are very good, some are terrible. The railway is not alone in that.



Ignorance? I have lived all over the country, worked for the railways, worked for big companies, small companies, franchises, ran businesses. Lived in some of the best off places in the UK, and some of the worst. Sat at dinners with millionaires, had takeaways with some of the poorest people. I've been on strike, been a member of several trade unions.

I'd argue have a a much more rounded view of the world than many.



People are not being put on zero hours contacts, nor do I agree with them. I've actually been on a zero hours contract too.

In the grand scheme of things it is a relatively simple change. For more complex changes have happened in the past with other grades.



Because businesses have to change, else they go out of business, without business there is no economy, unless you subscribe to the horribly inefficient planned economy. Most business are extremely small, 99.3% in fact, are classed as small businesses in the UK. Nobody really wants to make people redundant, change, or reduce salaries, but things change, sometimes not for the better.



Both the RMT and ASLEF put a line in the sand and on some TOCs balloting for strike action, rather than sit around the table and discuss changes. RMT press releases are universally hostile to railway management, private industry, certain political parties, etc. Some people here wish bad things would happen to their colleagues simply for making changes, which most businesses have to make from time-to-time.



Will you dump your loans, credit cards, savings accounts, pension, sell your property too? It's all part of the capitalist system.



I'm 100% sure you are.



No I'm not that black and white, the vast majority are decent people protecting their pay and conditions.



You know that's not the case at all. But you also know, at some point, with all things, people will have to talk through problems, and come to a sensible solution in the interests of (hopefully) everyone.



Except it's not black and white nor simple. BTW this is not leading anywhere, I'm genuinely interested why people think mangers are the root of all evil, and there cannot be a better solution.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well there is going to be people on trains (maybe there should be more guarantees) and the safety argument is weak.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This is typical of the sort of bullying on forums and behind the scenes in trade unions in real life.

Thank you for all that, one of the best posts on this thread.
.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

My experience is some are very good, some are terrible. The railway is not alone in that.



Ignorance? I have lived all over the country, worked for the railways, worked for big companies, small companies, franchises, ran businesses. Lived in some of the best off places in the UK, and some of the worst. Sat at dinners with millionaires, had takeaways with some of the poorest people. I've been on strike, been a member of several trade unions.

I'd argue have a a much more rounded view of the world than many.



People are not being put on zero hours contacts, nor do I agree with them. I've actually been on a zero hours contract too.

In the grand scheme of things it is a relatively simple change. For more complex changes have happened in the past with other grades.



Because businesses have to change, else they go out of business, without business there is no economy, unless you subscribe to the horribly inefficient planned economy. Most business are extremely small, 99.3% in fact, are classed as small businesses in the UK. Nobody really wants to make people redundant, change, or reduce salaries, but things change, sometimes not for the better.



Both the RMT and ASLEF put a line in the sand and on some TOCs balloting for strike action, rather than sit around the table and discuss changes. RMT press releases are universally hostile to railway management, private industry, certain political parties, etc. Some people here wish bad things would happen to their colleagues simply for making changes, which most businesses have to make from time-to-time.



Will you dump your loans, credit cards, savings accounts, pension, sell your property too? It's all part of the capitalist system.



I'm 100% sure you are.



No I'm not that black and white, the vast majority are decent people protecting their pay and conditions.



You know that's not the case at all. But you also know, at some point, with all things, people will have to talk through problems, and come to a sensible solution in the interests of (hopefully) everyone.



Except it's not black and white nor simple. BTW this is not leading anywhere, I'm genuinely interested why people think mangers are the root of all evil, and there cannot be a better solution.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Well there is going to be people on trains (maybe there should be more guarantees) and the safety argument is weak.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---




This is typical of the sort of bullying on forums and behind the scenes in trade unions in real life.

The safety argument is weak ? When you have driven a DOO train, come back and tell me about weak safety arguments

You consider that bullying ? My you have lead a sheltered life and need a serious sense of humor injection. Anyway, I don't bully, and certainly not on forums, I 'll stand in front of people and call them a knob

 

[Haig paxton]

Which companies in and around London are DOO and which use Guards? Did Horton have any issues ar Southeastern regarding DOO?

 

[yorkie]

Which companies in and around London are DOO and which use Guards? Did Horton have any issues ar Southeastern regarding DOO?

Many are a mixture, e.g. GTR, Southeastern, Greater Anglia in the London area are DOO except for the Mk3 sets, and I believe it's a similar situation with Chiltern & GWR.

c2c is probably exclusively DOO these days (I do recall they had Guards on their 12-car trains but I know they were trying to change this... I am sure someone can confirm either way what the current situation is), and I believe London Overground is also.

SWT & LM are exclusively Guard operated.

 

[highdyke]

The safety argument is weak ? When you have driven a DOO train, come back and tell me about weak safety arguments

You consider that bullying ? My you have lead a sheltered life and need a serious sense of humor injection. Anyway, I don't bully, and certainly not on forums, I 'll stand in front of people and call them a knob

I've signalled plenty and stopped 2 crashes. RSSB, the ORR, Most TOCs all agree statistically the argument is weak. We can agree to disagree about that if you like and that's fine.

I've watched repeatedly people getting very personal with those that disagree with each other, we need to move beyond that. "You have lead a sheltered life and need a serious sense of humor injection. " is just typical or the sort of language used to divert people from the real issues.

 

[yorkie]

I've watched repeatedly people getting very personal with those that disagree with each other, we need to move beyond that.

Agreed.

I ask people to please respect the Forum Rules and if you have any concerns please use the report button (

in bottom-left of each post) and don't re-publish any content you are unhappy with.

 

[Haig paxton]

Why are people forgetting the main issue of a Guard carrying out their EMERGENCY TRAIN PROTECTION in the event of an incident and focussing on DOORS? This is exactly what GTR want people to bring it down to. Plus no one has mentioned my point about DOO trains having doors opened on the wrong side frequently.

 

[highdyke]

Why are people forgetting the main issue of a Guard carrying out their EMERGENCY TRAIN PROTECTION in the event of an incident and focussing on DOORS? This is exactly what GTR want people to bring it down to. Plus no one was mentioned my point about DOO trains having doors opened on the wrong side frequently.

There is tech for to prevent doors opening on the wrong side on some DOO services. Emergency train protection with flags/dets etc very, very rarely happens (I've never know it to happen) it's only if the train crew cannot contact the signaller or the signaller cannot provide protection with signals or radio. Track circuit clips don't work on absolute block lines in general (where guards are normally applied) or on axle-counter lines.

There are a number of issues with "ding-ding" and away with guard operated trains. Moving the guard into the passenger area aiding with revening protection and customer help is an entirely sensible measure. The union should be looking at guarantees for this role, nothing else IMHO.

 

[HowardGWR]

Here, here

Or there, there?