Will leaving the EU change legislation regarding coach speeds?

[Antman]

Mods' note: split from Could the Oxford Tube Work for Other Towns?

Coaches are legally allowed to do 70mph on the motorway, but are also legally required to have a 100km/h limiter. Which is at best bizarre.

Hopefully that will change when we leave the EU?

 

[Statto]

Hopefully that will change when we leave the EU?

I think that's UK law, not EU law.

 

[Antman]

I think that's UK law, not EU law.

Speed limiters are an EU requirements on coaches and lorries.

 

[notadriver]

Speed limiters are an EU requirements on coaches and lorries.

I thought Britain introduced them in 1987 before the EU mandated their use ?


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[Bletchleyite]

Speed limiters are an EU requirements on coaches and lorries.

Most EU law comes into force by the passing of a relevant UK law.

FWIW, if companies do become entitled to remove them by the repeal of that law (which I would doubt, as current political views tend towards improved, not reduced, road safety and reduction, not increase, of speed limits), I expect they will be mandatory if the coach enters the EU.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Most EU law comes into force by the passing of a relevant UK law.

FWIW, if companies do become entitled to remove them by the repeal of that law (which I would doubt, as current political views tend towards improved, not reduced, road safety and reduction, not increase, of speed limits), I expect they will be mandatory if the coach enters the EU.

Exactly. There may be some exemption or modification in some areas but not in terms of speed limiters and I'd be surprised on drivers hours legislation.

Speed limiters were brought in after a number of high profile coach crashes involving notably a United DD Metroliner at Bradbury where one person was killed and an Eastern Scottish SD Metroliner on the M6 where (despite it having a limiter) there was a serious accident with 13 people being killed.

For that, you can thank Lynda Chalkner NOT Jacques Delors. The latter accident was 1986 so introduction of limiters by the UK Government in 1987 sounds about right

 

[Bletchleyite]

Didn't think of hours legislation. I can see that being harmonised so all operations that don't leave the UK are on domestic hours, but retaining the requirement for tachographs. I could also see CPC being abolished, as it's utterly pointless in its current implementation - without ongoing assessment on the job it is a cost to the industry that is not justified - anybody can sit through a course for 5 days and twiddle with their phone.

But it's low priority.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Didn't think of hours legislation. I can see that being harmonised so all operations that don't leave the UK are on domestic hours, but retaining the requirement for tachographs. I could also see CPC being abolished, as it's utterly pointless in its current implementation - without ongoing assessment on the job it is a cost to the industry that is not justified - anybody can sit through a course for 5 days and twiddle with their phone.

But it's low priority.

I don't see EU hours legislation being unpicked really for operations wholly within the UK. One thing for drivers on relatively local work but you have coach drivers and think of all the LGV drivers as well. On that side, the unions would be up in arms!!

However, DCPC may well be an area that is reviewed and revised

 

[Antman]

Exactly. There may be some exemption or modification in some areas but not in terms of speed limiters and I'd be surprised on drivers hours legislation.

Speed limiters were brought in after a number of high profile coach crashes involving notably a United DD Metroliner at Bradbury where one person was killed and an Eastern Scottish SD Metroliner on the M6 where (despite it having a limiter) there was a serious accident with 13 people being killed.

For that, you can thank Lynda Chalkner NOT Jacques Delors. The latter accident was 1986 so introduction of limiters by the UK Government in 1987 sounds about right

The current speed limiter's on coaches and lorries, which prevent them even reaching maximum speed, come from the EU as does the totally pointless CPC course mentioned in another post.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The current speed limiter's on coaches and lorries, which prevent them even reaching maximum speed, come from the EU as does the totally pointless CPC course mentioned in another post.

Speed limiters per se were a UK stipulation.

The later move on speed limiters reflects the use of coaches from the UK to the continent which is something that they may well be expected to do.

They could revise speed limiters for "UK only coaches" but that gets messy and difficult for operators to police especially in NI.

 

[Deerfold]

The current speed limiter's on coaches and lorries, which prevent them even reaching maximum speed, come from the EU as does the totally pointless CPC course mentioned in another post.

The EU regulation reduced the speed limiter settings from 65 mph to 62 mph.

If we stop conforming to EU regulations that's not going to make a huge difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They could revise speed limiters for "UK only coaches" but that gets messy and difficult for operators to police especially in NI.

With Brexit, that isn't really our problem, rather it's the problem of the police in the EU.

To be fair 3mph is hardly going to make much difference, though it does seem bizarre that the limiter isn't required to be set to, er, the speed limit.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

With Brexit, that isn't really our problem, rather it's the problem of the police in the EU.

To be fair 3mph is hardly going to make much difference, though it does seem bizarre that the limiter isn't required to be set to, er, the speed limit.

As with many aspects, there is the view that Brexit is going to magically free us from the requirements of the EU. However, because of the links in many ways, we will still be bound by their requirements, not least if you travel there.

It will need to be policed by the authorities. However, let's say we elected to adopt UK domestic rules for drivers hours. Fine but what happens if a driver gets caught in France without a tacho? Or has a tacho and has driven for 5.5 hours without a break? Drivers and operators will be liable.

Also, the EU limiter rule is reflective of the different speed limits across the EU http://www.coach-driver.co.uk/page12.html

 

[Busaholic]

I visited Shetland, Unst in fact, just the once in 1971, before we joined the Common Market. The only bus/coach on the island was an old Bedford OB and, if you were walking along one of the roads and it approached, the advice was to throw yourself into the adjoining hedge (if available) or otherwise avoid it, because its steering was imprecise and its brakes decidedly dodgy. No motor vehicle on Shetland in those days was required to pass a MOT, as no testing station existed. I would suggest that the situation today from the point of view of 'health and safety' is many times better, with or without the EU to guide us.

 

[freetoview33]

The most likely is all EU legislation will remain as current for the time being, but then I guess if there is political will to change any laws then that might be done as per any other changes.

 

[Rich McLean]

All laws will remain the same when we leave. As all EU directives and laws are also passed into UK law, it will need to go through the Bill process in both houses for any law to be removed. That takes many months as it will require votes in both houses, and unless completely unnecessary unlikely to be voted on. Even then the House of Lords can block its removal.

I imagine a few laws etc maybe reviewed and may be successful taken out of UK law, purely down to the fact that they won't be relevant any more.

 

[radamfi]

If we, sensibly, stay in the EEA, hardly anything will change.

 

[Rich McLean]

If we, sensibly, stay in the EEA, hardly anything will change.

From the latest noises being made from the Government, that is not looking very likely. Especially as under EEA rules, we are not permitted to strike trade deals with anyone outside of the EU, which is currently being planned, and deals drawn up ready to be signed and coming into effect following exit.

I think I am right in saying that EEA would prevent this

However, this is about coaches and speed restrictions. Personally I don't think it will change at all.

 

[Antman]

With Brexit, that isn't really our problem, rather it's the problem of the police in the EU.

To be fair 3mph is hardly going to make much difference, though it does seem bizarre that the limiter isn't required to be set to, er, the speed limit.

Exactly, a speed limiter set at the limit would be difficult to argue against, then again you might ask why if they have prevented so many accidents why haven't they been fitted to cars? If police vehicles were exempt then there would be far fewer high speed pursuits! Might not go down to well with the motoring lobby though.

I know it's 'only a few mph' but it does all add up, not least of all because drivers are often reluctant to overtake on a motorway for fear of being stuck in the middle lane unable to get past and of course the problem is even worse on a two lane motorway.

 

[Deerfold]

I know it's 'only a few mph' but it does all add up, not least of all because drivers are often reluctant to overtake on a motorway for fear of being stuck in the middle lane unable to get past and of course the problem is even worse on a two lane motorway.

How much 2 lane motorway is there in this country?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

How much 2 lane motorway is there in this country?

There's a few of the "secondary" motorways (e.g. A66M, M50, M58) though suspect the vast, vast majority of motorway coach miles are undertaken on 3/4 lane motorways

 

[Antman]

How much 2 lane motorway is there in this country?

Off the top of my head there's a lengthy section of the M2 and the M26.

 

[radamfi]

Most of the motorways in Scotland are 2 lanes each way. Other than in the vicinity of Glasgow and on the M74/A74(M) I think it is all or nearly all 2 lanes each way. The M11 north of Stansted is also 2 lanes each way.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Most of the motorways in Scotland are 2 lanes each way. Other than in the vicinity of Glasgow and on the M74/A74(M) I think it is all or nearly all 2 lanes each way. The M11 north of Stansted is also 2 lanes each way.

I don't see the speed limiters changing. There's a fair number of vehicles that will be heading over to the continent (or from NI to ROI) and they'll have to conform to the 100kph limit anyway. Having a separate rule for solely UK based vehicles seems to be a bit more hassle for relatively little benefit.

As for the rationale and benefit of speed limiters, excess speed has been shown to be a major factor in accidents and, as has been said, there were a number of incidents in the 1980s that led to the government (not the EU, mind) introducing limiters.

Why not fit limiters to cars? Well, as has been said, it would be politically uber-toxic (despite safety benefits etc)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why not fit limiters to cars?

A great many newer cars have them, it's just their use is optional.

FWIW, if there was to be a plan to implement limiters on cars I would want to see them set to 80mph and the motorway limit increased as originally planned. There is a recognition than 70mph is too low - even Smart Motorways don't appear to enforce against people doing 80mph when the limit is 70.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

A great many newer cars have them, it's just their use is optional.

To be fair, that's more cruise control than a speed limiter; a speed limiter isn't optional.

 

[radamfi]

Most European countries have a coach speed limit at 100 km/h or lower. In Germany, famous for no speed limit for cars, coaches used to be 80 km/h by default unless it was Tempo 100 approved, but now I think new coaches can go 100 km/h. In the Netherlands it is 80 km/h unless you are on a T100 bus. I believe Denmark has only relatively recently approved an increase from 80 km/h to 100 km/h.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair, that's more cruise control than a speed limiter; a speed limiter isn't optional.

It's not really cruise control, which is used to keep speed at a specified level (with a small tolerance, and sometimes with radar to avoid hitting a vehicle in front) - it's a device to stop people accidentally exceeding the speed limit, but the car is otherwise being driven manually. I can see what you mean, but it *is* a configurable limiter I'm talking about.

 

[notadriver]

Most new coaches are longer than 12 metres which means a 60 mph limit anyway !


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[Bletchleyite]

Most new coaches are longer than 12 metres which means a 60 mph limit anyway !

Do such coaches still have a limiter at 100km/h i.e. 62mph, or do they have it at 60mph?