Gatwick to Sheffield routes

[tannedfrog]

Thetrainline shows that the first possible train for the ticket below on weekdays is at 09:40. Please could you check if my understanding below is correct:

• The Gatwick to St Pancras leg can be started as early as I want, with no difficulties with barriers/barrier staff
• Gatwick ticket office / TVMs should sell this any time even before 09:30
• The route can be via Doncaster
• The first train for this ticket from Kings Cross is at 09:08

SUPER OFFPEAK R [CJ]
SSR
From GATWICK AIRPORT
To SHEFFIELD
Route ✠VIA CITY THAMESL

Fare set by: SMR EAST MIDLANDS TRAINS
Cross-London: YES

ADULT £89.00
Restriction Code: CJ

Mondays to Fridays
Not valid on trains timed to
depart:
LONDON ST PANCRAS INTL after
04:29 and before 10:29 or
after 15:15 until 18:59;

Journeys from London Kings
Cross and Stevenage please use
restriction 9D.

9D
Mondays to Fridays
LONDON TERMINALS: (except as
shown below) after 02:59 and
before 09:06 and after 14:59
and before 18:59 (18:15 on
Fridays);

Many thanks

 

[yorkie]

The Gatwick to St Pancras leg can be started as early as I want

Correct

with no difficulties with barriers/barrier staff

With GTR, nothing can be guaranteed.

Gatwick ticket office / TVMs should sell this any time even before 09:30

They certainly should.

The route can be via Doncaster

Yes, London-Sheffield is permitted via Doncaster

The first train for this ticket from Kings Cross is at 09:08


Many thanks

Yes

 

[Paul Kelly]

Very interesting - there is a hidden restriction in the data used by booking engines that says fares routed "VIA CITY THAMESL" may only be used on Thameslink, Southeastern, Great Northern, EMT or Northern. I might have put this down to a botched attempt to avoid booking engines showing (valid) itineraries on Southern/Gatwick Express, except that the data also stipulates that the journey must not go via Clapham Junction, Watford Junction nor Peterborough, which is why you can't get booking engines to show this validity.

Even stranger is that the requirement to go via City Thameslink does not actually exist in the data used by booking engines, so they will happily give you an itinerary via, for example Cannon Street and then Underground to St Pancras (see attachment for an example).

 

[island]

I disagree with yorkie. The ticket is not valid on any train timed to depart London St. Pancras Intl before 10:29. The 09:16 and earlier departures from Gatwick Airport to Bedford are trains "timed to depart London St. Pancras Intl before 10:29" and the ticket is therefore not valid on such a train – whether or not the ticket holder intends to in fact depart from London St. Pancras in that train. Using the ticket to London Bridge or London Victoria would be unrestricted, but would then make it difficult to comply with the VIA CITY THAMESL bit.

The ticket is valid in the 09:40 from Gatwick Airport and later. I don't see any way of using it earlier in a way that complies with both the route and the time restriction.

However, the "Network area rule" may be invoked depending on how much of an argument you're prepared to have with the Gatwick barrier staff.

(Early morning services omitted for simplicity.)

 

[sheff1]

In addition to the test quoted in the OP, restriction code CJ includes the line: If travel is not to/via the stations listed above or is via Peterborough, see restriction code 2V.

As a journey from Kings Cross to Sheffield on the 0908 is via Peterborough, then 2V applies i.e. Not valid for trains scheduled to depart after 04:29 and before 09:30.

So, as 2V does mention any specific stations, this means the 0940 from Gatwick is also the first available train if travelling via Peterborough.

 

[maniacmartin]

I disagree with yorkie. The ticket is not valid on any train timed to depart London St. Pancras Intl before 10:29. The 09:16 and earlier departures from Gatwick Airport to Bedford are trains "timed to depart London St. Pancras Intl before 10:29" and the ticket is therefore not valid on such a train – whether or not the ticket holder intends to in fact depart from London St. Pancras in that train. Using the ticket to London Bridge or London Victoria would be unrestricted, but would then make it difficult to comply with the VIA CITY THAMESL bit.

I don't think that's how the restriction was intended to work, but sadly I would agree with island that it would indeed bar those trains.

 

[tannedfrog]

Thank you for all your help. Why does 2V trump 9D?

Journeys from London Kings
Cross and Stevenage please use
restriction 9D.

Journeys from London Euston
please use restriction 9I.

If travel is NOT to/via the
stations listed above or is
via Peterborough, see
restriction code 2V.

 

[maniacmartin]

The journey originates in Gatwick not Kings Cross, so the instruction to refer to 9D doesn't apply

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Thank you for all your help. Why does 2V trump 9D?

The issue is not the train that leaves London, it is that the Thameslink train from Gatwick passes through St. Pancras, therefore departs this station before 10.29.

If you found a Thameslink train that would terminate at St. Pancras then technically this would be acceptable. Then you could use 9D and depart from Kings Cross.

 

[yorkie]

It's valid on any train from Gatwick to London, due to the Network Area rule:

Off-Peak tickets for journeys starting within the Network Area to destinations outside the Network Area with travel via London are valid by any train to London, to connect with trains from London

I disagree with claims that the Network Area Rule does not apply.

I suspect the Network Area Rule has protected status. It's a very long-standing rule which the train companies shouldn't be able to circumvent, and I'm not aware of any blatantly deliberate attempts to circumvent it, so I believe any contradictory wording is either accidental or made in ignorance of the rule, and is trumped by it.

 

[robbeech]

The super off peak would be valid via Reading and you could get the 0758 from Gatwick.

This is of course somewhat academic as it takes longer and only gets you into Sheffield 15 minutes earlier than the one via London.


Rob

 

[fandroid]

I agree that the Network Area rule applies. The fare is set by EMT, so it's their restrictions that apply. I regularly take advantage of the Network Area rule to get to London earlier than a straightforward itinerary would require. In my experience, ticket barriers at the starting station will reject the ticket but the gate line staff are happy to let me through.