Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[ComUtoR]

I can only speak for my side but we are learning the route as it changes. Briefings and videos mostly. It is an incremental change.

I think Thameslink will need a total resign as they currently do not go through London Bridge so no-one is driving it so it will drop off their route cards. For our side we many also need to re sign London Bridge to Blackfriars IF we keep it on our route card (which I doubt)

[on topic] It will no doubt be covered by RDW when they re sign the route. [/on topic]

 

[DarloRich]

Is the RMT conceding ground, by offering to pause hostilities, an acceptance that it is a battle they can't win? Looking for the best way out rather than holding their original position?

Conceding ground is rarely done from a position of strength.

possibly but GTR also gave back car park passes etc. A quid pro quo? - or playing the PR game ( finally): WE offered to settle THEY rejected it etc

 

[HH]

In all my years at my TOC I have never seen the TOC meet the establishment level and ASLEF always renew the RDW agreement. I have also seen establishment levels tweaked to meet staffing levels because its easier to reduce the establishment than to employ new Drivers.

The way in which TOC's run rosters is disgraceful. Possibly one of the nation wide complaints about a TOC from the internals is the roster problems. It has been discussed at length before on this forum and goes from complicated to crazy.

For everyone looking at what his happening at Southern. Understand that this is a consequence of running a business on overtime and goodwill. There is not enough staff to run the service at normal levels. The slightest knock and the service falls apart. At my depot we have 1 morning cover and 1 afternoon cover and they don't even overlap ! The TOC tried to remove cover altogether but the Union fought against it (to protect the service)

I have no faith that the staffing levels will ever be met and the TOC will always keep levels artificially low

Oh I agree with you, but ASLEF have to be held partially responsible here. They could make it more of an issue.

I also agree that it's daft to run a TOC requiring RDW to run, even on the best day; some TOCs are not set up that way.

 

[tony6499]

In the same way there used to be a 04.00 CMEE crew at both Brighton and Selhurst, whose first priority was to move stock before the start of service, to ensure the outstations were balanced.
But of course another saving, and now we run short in the morning peak!

Those were the days, when I started as a guard the 0400CMEE job was a coveted turn especially by those who had other jobs to go to.

Up until a couple of years ago there were control drivers at Brighton whose job was specifically to work as required by Control moving stock where required and the night man was utilised most nights here, there and everywhere.

Then you get the bean counters look at the rosters and diagrams and think they can get brownie points with the powers that give out bonuses and so they suggest getting rid of them and then you suffer from not having the drivers available to get stock back to the right place.

 

[tsr]

In the same way there used to be a 04.00 CMEE crew at both Brighton and Selhurst, whose first priority was to move stock before the start of service, to ensure the outstations were balanced.
But of course another saving, and now we run short in the morning peak!

Those were the days, when I started as a guard the 0400CMEE job was a coveted turn especially by those who had other jobs to go to.

Up until a couple of years ago there were control drivers at Brighton whose job was specifically to work as required by Control moving stock where required and the night man was utilised most nights here, there and everywhere.

Then you get the bean counters look at the rosters and diagrams and think they can get brownie points with the powers that give out bonuses and so they suggest getting rid of them and then you suffer from not having the drivers available to get stock back to the right place.

A point of order here...

Several Southern depots (notably Selhurst and Victoria) have fairly extensive night turn duties which include a lot of running around to both move and prep rolling stock. This is of great help to the start of the next day's service, and diagrams are pretty complex to achieve it. You do also fairly often hear Metro drivers complaining (obviously ) about how often they are asked to stay on to do split/attach and platform to platform shunts at various stations, head to Pug's Hole or Battersea Pier, or whatever. The taxi list between berthing sites is pretty impressive in and of itself, too. Lastly, of course, many drivers and conductors DO end up working ECS for fairly long distances and end up detaching stock or swapping it around - for example, STP or Q path workings to East Grinstead, to name but one.

One of the best ways, of moving stock, though, is utilising the overnights - something only available to Southern, Thameslink and a few other networks. It's amazing how much can be achieved at the end of a disrupted day's service by modifying the formations of all the public and staff overnight trains. Some of them end up bearing absolutely no resemblance to what they should be, but it's all worth it when everything is formed up at Victoria at 0500ish.

As for 0400 turns to get stuff ready for start of service... I wish! That would leave virtually no time at all nowadays for the start of play - some of the "red-eye" commuter services really do now start hideously early - first commuter Victoria-Brightons are both before 0500 - and there's demand for a fair few more on a number of routes in years to come. You could easily run from East Grinstead, Uckfield and Horsham pre-0500 and get decent footfall.

 

[swt_passenger]

Will all links that sign London Bridge (SouthEastern, Southern and ThamesLink) need to re-learn and re-sign London Bridge once all the rebuild works are finally complete?

How would they run any trains over the next two years if that were the case? The work is done in many phases, and so is the driver training.

See Reading rebuild for a similar example that went on for many years with phased layouts, resignalling and platform availability...

 

[ComUtoR]

How would they run any trains over the next two years if that were the case?
.

Thameslink Drivers are not currently running through London Bridge. When that reopens they will need to re sign it. Spacey McPhoenix was right to pose the question.

Add in changes to routes allocated to depots and you can see that there may be a need for some Drivers to sign the route again.

 

[tony6499]

A point of order here...

Several Southern depots (notably Selhurst and Victoria) have fairly extensive night turn duties which include a lot of running around to both move and prep rolling stock. This is of great help to the start of the next day's service, and diagrams are pretty complex to achieve it. You do also fairly often hear Metro drivers complaining (obviously ) about how often they are asked to stay on to do split/attach and platform to platform shunts at various stations, head to Pug's Hole or Battersea Pier, or whatever. The taxi list between berthing sites is pretty impressive in and of itself, too. Lastly, of course, many drivers and conductors DO end up working ECS for fairly long distances and end up detaching stock or swapping it around - for example, STP or Q path workings to East Grinstead, to name but one.

One of the best ways, of moving stock, though, is utilising the overnights - something only available to Southern, Thameslink and a few other networks. It's amazing how much can be achieved at the end of a disrupted day's service by modifying the formations of all the public and staff overnight trains. Some of them end up bearing absolutely no resemblance to what they should be, but it's all worth it when everything is formed up at Victoria at 0500ish.

As for 0400 turns to get stuff ready for start of service... I wish! That would leave virtually no time at all nowadays for the start of play - some of the "red-eye" commuter services really do now start hideously early - first commuter Victoria-Brightons are both before 0500 - and there's demand for a fair few more on a number of routes in years to come. You could easily run from East Grinstead, Uckfield and Horsham pre-0500 and get decent footfall.

It's just a shame that the management removed the Brighton night turn which did all these moves then, my point was about the 80's when we had CMEE when it was BR and pathways were easy to get, just turn up and go.

 

[LBSCR Times]

A point of order here...

Several Southern depots (notably Selhurst and Victoria) have fairly extensive night turn duties which include a lot of running around to both move and prep rolling stock. This is of great help to the start of the next day's service, and diagrams are pretty complex to achieve it. You do also fairly often hear Metro drivers complaining (obviously ) about how often they are asked to stay on to do split/attach and platform to platform shunts at various stations, head to Pug's Hole or Battersea Pier, or whatever. The taxi list between berthing sites is pretty impressive in and of itself, too. Lastly, of course, many drivers and conductors DO end up working ECS for fairly long distances and end up detaching stock or swapping it around - for example, STP or Q path workings to East Grinstead, to name but one.

One of the best ways, of moving stock, though, is utilising the overnights - something only available to Southern, Thameslink and a few other networks. It's amazing how much can be achieved at the end of a disrupted day's service by modifying the formations of all the public and staff overnight trains. Some of them end up bearing absolutely no resemblance to what they should be, but it's all worth it when everything is formed up at Victoria at 0500ish.

As for 0400 turns to get stuff ready for start of service... I wish! That would leave virtually no time at all nowadays for the start of play - some of the "red-eye" commuter services really do now start hideously early - first commuter Victoria-Brightons are both before 0500 - and there's demand for a fair few more on a number of routes in years to come. You could easily run from East Grinstead, Uckfield and Horsham pre-0500 and get decent footfall.

Yes, maybe going off-topic....
But with the 0400 CMEE crew, the Control would balance the early starts and use the moves for later departures.
As regards the other moves now, there is (was?) a lot of goodwill on the part of many drivers in making up etc of trains overnight, to get a correct formation for the start of service.
I wonder how much that will be lost?

 

[Bellbell]

What's about the industry average for the % of duties covered by either RDW or overtime?

I've heard a figure of several thousand RDW days for one TOC in the last (financial?) year, just for drivers. Not sure how many drivers there are at the TOC but nowhere near several thousand! Wouldn't even have thought a thousand but not my TOC so not sure.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sorry to be late to the debate with this query, but over last weekend, did someone from Modern Railways magazine appear upon a breakfast TV programme to give a "basic summary" of the current dispute in words that were simplistic?

 

[ComUtoR]

I've heard a figure of several thousand RDW days for one TOC in the last (financial?) year, just for drivers. Not sure how many drivers there are at the TOC but nowhere near several thousand! Wouldn't even have thought a thousand but not my TOC so not sure.

Just done some quick maths for my TOC and I can come up with a figure of 7,800 RD's worked per year hock:

 

[WelshBluebird]

part of the staffing issue is caused by certain tocs not training drivers, but poaching them from other operators, something else the DFT ought to look at.

Isn't that a problem in any job that requires a signifiant amount of training though?
Certainly no where unique to the rail industry.

 

[Bellbell]

Just done some quick maths for my TOC and I can come up with a figure of 7,800 RD's worked per year hock:

Hell of a lot, isn't it? That's a good few extra drivers, right there!

I'm a guard, rather than a driver and I do some RDW. Not a lot, I'm not one of those with my name in the book for every RD, but I'll do a day here or there if it suits me. I don't know many, even those who do absolutely no RDW, who'd necessarily want to see RDW completely eradicated but I think when you're looking at those kind of numbers of RD's worked, it's clear that companies are relying way too heavily on overtime.

Edited to make it loosely on topic - southern are not the only TOC doing this, it's just that with the withdrawal of good will, they're suffering. As more franchises seek to introduce DOO I guess this will happen across the country.

 

[ComUtoR]

Hell of a lot, isn't it? That's a good few extra drivers, right there!

In raw numbers I'd say about 37.5 (7,800 / *208) and that's before you need to factor in the **1,036 days leave they each need. Then minus off training days, assessments, medicals, briefings etc and you start to see why its better to pay the money for RDW than employ more staff.

To keep that loosely on topic.... Charles Horton mentioned how many trains per diagram are lost (I forgot the number) so you can see how much the loss of RDW can impact the service. When that is deliberately taken away you need to ask yourself if the passenger is ever taken into consideration.

Is the reliance on RDW the fault of the staff or management ?







*208 Days worked per year @ 4 days per week
** 37drivers x 28days leave

 

[spangles]

As someone else mentioned, an element of RDW suits both sides. For management it offers flexibility at reduced cost, and for employees it's a useful extra cash flow perhaps for a holiday or before Christmas. I imagine there would be some staff pretty upset of it were removed completely.

That been said, obviously strikes by the right balance is key.

On another topic, I'm surprised there has not been so much talk of the emergency timetable, how are people finding it. My journey was not too bad, but I travel early.

 

[DarloRich]

Did I see a statement from Claire Perry indicating no one would loose pay or thier job but refusing entirely to refer to guards as guards instead referring to them as door supervisors?

It also, again, tried to make out this dispute was solely about who pushes a button. sigh.

 

[Deepgreen]

As someone else mentioned, an element of RDW suits both sides. For management it offers flexibility at reduced cost, and for employees it's a useful extra cash flow perhaps for a holiday or before Christmas. I imagine there would be some staff pretty upset of it were removed completely.

That been said, obviously strikes by the right balance is key.

On another topic, I'm surprised there has not been so much talk of the emergency timetable, how are people finding it. My journey was not too bad, but I travel early.

Yesterday morning the train congestion in the Clapham Junction/Victoria area was even worse than normal - I posted elsewhere that it must be all those removed trains causing the congestion!

 

[hwl]

Yesterday morning the train congestion in the Clapham Junction/Victoria area was even worse than normal - I posted elsewhere that it must be all those removed trains causing the congestion!

There are fewer service removals into VIC than LBG but it sounds like Dwell times have got worse at Clapham Jn with more people travelling there (and onwards to WAT?)

 

[LBSCR Times]

There are fewer service removals into VIC than LBG but it sounds like Dwell times have got worse at Clapham Jn with more people travelling there (and onwards to WAT?)

Services on the Fast lines in to Victoria are already at saturation point in the rush hour, before any incidents happen.
Yesterday the signallers did a good job in diverting a couple of services via the Up Slow from Balham, to ease congestion.
And the tailback was back to Streatham Common....

 

[Deepgreen]

Services on the Fast lines in to Victoria are already at saturation point in the rush hour, before any incidents happen.
Yesterday the signallers did a good job in diverting a couple of services via the Up Slow from Balham, to ease congestion.
And the tailback was back to Streatham Common....

Yes, my train was overtaken by a GatEx on the up slow between Wandsworth and Clapham.

 

[JamesTT]

http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-responds-to-transport-secretary-mcloughlins-attack/

Valid points but I wish they would use something more professional and less ranty than 'basket case franchise'
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-responds-to-transport-secretary-mcloughlins-attack/

Valid points but I wish they would use something more professional and less ranty than 'basket case franchise'

 

[Tomnick]

Sorry to be late to the debate with this query, but over last weekend, did someone from Modern Railways magazine appear upon a breakfast TV programme to give a "basic summary" of the current dispute in words that were simplistic?

Tony Miles appeared on Sunday (if I remember rightly) morning, and offered a clearly well-informed and balanced summary of the dispute.

 

[Harbornite]

There's a feature on Southern/ Thameslink on the one show and they mentoned that only a third of Southern trains arrive on time. One woman who was interview said she and other passengers were fined for being sat in first class, even though their train was overcrowded.

 

[Sprinter153]

There's a feature on Southern/ Thameslink on the one show and they mentoned that only a third of Southern trains arrive on time. One woman who was interview said she and other passengers were fined for being sat in first class, even though their train was overcrowded.

I have little sympathy with people who self upgrade 'because it's overcrowded'. Usually this happens when there is a plethora of available seats (middle of three, or next to someone in a pair of airline seats), or indeed tumbleweed blowing around in Coach A. They just get on, think 'nobody will come round anyway' and park their posteriors, then play the guilt trip card when challenged.

What do these people think people purchase FC tickets for?

 

[the sniper]

One woman who was interview said she and other passengers were fined for being sat in first class, even though their train was overcrowded.

They can look forward to more of that eventually when the new 'customer focused' OBS grade have nothing to do but dish out penalty fares...

After all, this 'evolution' is all for the passengers benefit.

 

[Harbornite]

They can look forward to more of that eventually when the new 'customer focused' OBS grade have nothing to do but dish out penalty fares...

After all, this 'evolution' is all for the passengers benefit.

Very much so, but at least the ditching of guards will lead to significant fare decreases.


Oh wait... :roll:

 

[JamesTT]

They can look forward to more of that eventually when the new 'customer focused' OBS grade have nothing to do but dish out penalty fares...

After all, this 'evolution' is all for the passengers benefit.

A first class ticket holder might welcome first class being policed more, plus cutting ticketless travel is good service for those that can be bothered to get organised and purchase a ticket before boarding

 

[the sniper]

A first class ticket holder might welcome first class being policed more, plus cutting ticketless travel is good service for those that can be bothered to get organised and purchase a ticket before boarding

Well at least it'll be good for somebody for the few years that the OBS will be about... that's if it does lead to increased tickets checks even while they exist.

I'm sure the passengers will see all this trouble and disruption as having been worthwhile when they see the benefits of the OBS grade...

 

[redbutton]

Did I see a statement from Claire Perry indicating no one would loose pay or thier job but refusing entirely to refer to guards as guards instead referring to them as door supervisors?

It also, again, tried to make out this dispute was solely about who pushes a button. sigh.

Maybe someone should go through the rule books and create an extract containing all the areas other than door operation where the guard has a role.

We could then send said document to Charles Horton, Dyan Crowther, and Claire Perry with a polite request to get their facts straight.