Could the Oxford Tube Work for Other Towns?

[DynamicSpirit]

The Oxford Tube seems to have been very successful, and I can't help wondering therefore why Oxford seems to be the only city that has this kind of bus service? Is there something that Oxford has that - say - Reading, Cambridge, Southampton or Brighton don't have, which would be essential to make a frequent express bus to London work? Or is it just a case of, noone's bothered trying it for other cities?

Any thoughts?

 

[TRAX]

There has been a lot of failed coach services - Greyhound would be your best example here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tourists, students and a relatively poor train service coupled with proximity to the motorway.


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[Comstock]

AIUI there are commuter coaches from Kent and Essex into central London.

 

[PeterC]

Oxford has the advantage of a good direct motorway connection combined with a roundabout rail route. Cambridge has better rail services and only manages a half hourly coach and no all 24 hour service.

Other centres like Reading don't have the same day long demand. I wouldn't count commuter coaches with a couple of journeys on weekdays as comperable with the two competing high frequency 24*7 services linking London and Oxford.

I think that the Oxford Tube managed to create a virtuous cycle where good branding generated the idea that Oxford is "accessible" so people are more likely to visit and use the service

Most bus or coach services simple don't generate the same brand awareness.

 

[Abpj17]

Bad traffic as a general rule and less people wanting to make the journey (tourists, academics, workers).

Luton may come closest - there are regular coaches due to the airport.

Easybus is apparently just an orange minibus. http://www.easybus.com/en/london-luton I knew about the Victoria one, I wasn't aware of the Liverpool St. one which is an interesting development. Website suggests 100 services a day for this route with fares from £2.

And then there is the more established and popular Greenline service. While this, I think, is primarily a commuter service (especially the 755 routes into the suburbs of Luton) it also runs 24/7. For example, on a Sunday it is roughly every 30 mins. Without the airport, this would be pretty unlikely - it's broadly equivalent to the soon to be half hourly 24/7 train service.

Last edit: oh, but Luton isn't actually a city...nevertheless, it has significantly better transport options than many cities because of the airport, size and roads (M1, A5, A6) - at least in terms of getting away from it

 

[edwin_m]

AIUI there are commuter coaches from Kent and Essex into central London.

I would expect Canary Wharf to be a major reason why these are viable. Road access from there eastwards is relatively easy (at least compared to central London) whereas rail access involves a change onto the DLR or Tube for the final leg.

It will be interesting to see what impact a through Chiltern service has on the coach market, once it extends to the main Oxford station. This will offer a somewhat quicker journey I believe, and Marylebone is probably better located for many people than Paddington is, so it ought to offer more competition to the coach than GWR do at present.

As suggested, most major towns have train services to London that can beat the coach on speed and reliability, especially any time around the peak hours. Oxford is about the only significant exception in south-east England.

 

[CatfordCat]

As with most things in life, there isn't a single and simple answer.

Factors Oxford has (some of which have been touched on)

relatively indifferent train service to / from London - often very overcrowded inner suburban spec DMU trains

Oxford is one of the very few places where bus deregulation has led to long term, high quality, competition between operators, rather than incumbent v cheap and tatty challenger, leading to short term but unsustainable cost / price cutting.

two way traffic flow - tourists from London going to visit Oxford not just commuters from Oxford going to London (to an extent, the remaining coach routes serving Luton and Stanstead airports and Windsor, share this feature.)

high demand for student travel - so demand is not concentrated just round the peak London commuter flows.

The latter two make quite a difference to the economics of it all - while some of the costs of operating coaches are directly proportionate to time and mileage on the road, there are costs which are 'peak vehicle' related - primarily the cost of buying / leasing / garaging the coach, which are the same whether the coach is earning money for 4 hours a day 5 days a week or 12+ hours a day 6 or 7 days a week.

I have heard it argued that the latter issue, and failing to address it, was one of the downfalls of Southend Transport's coach network - there was a limit to the amount of daytime fill-in work in central London for the coaches, hence expensive coaches, and drivers being paid (not unreasonably) for a full day, not doing anything for much of the day.

I think most of the former Southend network of coaches is extinct - Stephensons took some of it on, but this ended a while ago.

Parts of Kent still sustain commuter coaches - a lot of the residential areas of the Medway towns and Gravesend are as convenient for the A2 as they are the town centre railway stations, and many of these routes offer direct services to the Canary Wharf area, which may be more attractive than getting on a slowish train and changing at Lewisham / Greenwich.

 

[Robertj21a]

Last edit: oh, but Luton isn't actually a city...nevertheless, it has significantly better transport options than many cities because of the airport, size and roads (M1, A5, A6) - at least in terms of getting away from it

I didn't think Reading was a city either.

 

[CatfordCat]

I didn't think Reading was a city either.

Reading did apply for City status in (from memory) 2002 and in advance of a decision had street signs and bus destination displays showing 'city centre'

They didn't get granted city status.

 

[deltic]

With the disaster that is Southern railway at the moment I wonder if any of the coach companies will try and ramp up services from say Brighton into London.

The advantage Oxford has is the motorway/fast road link extends quite a way into London unlike from say Brighton where after the M25 it is generally a slow crawl through congested streets to get anywhere useful

 

[Greenback]

I think that Oxford is a pretty unique, and CatfordCat has identified some of he reasons why.

I think that another important reason is the rail terminus is Paddington, which I've always thought of as not too good for reaching Central London.

 

[Robertj21a]

With the disaster that is Southern railway at the moment I wonder if any of the coach companies will try and ramp up services from say Brighton into London.

The advantage Oxford has is the motorway/fast road link extends quite a way into London unlike from say Brighton where after the M25 it is generally a slow crawl through congested streets to get anywhere useful

I'm sure it's tempting but, as you say, once you're past the M25 you usually come to a crawl (at best). If you don't go all the way through to, say, Victoria you've still got to get the coach as far as a tube station - and there aren't too many of those south of the river.

 

[notadriver]

What's the market share of Oxford to London coach services compared with rail ?
Another question could be why Cambridge another student dominated city doesn't have Oxford tube style services. I think it's all down to journey time in this instance.


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[robertclark125]

Someone mentioned above the two way demand for the Oxford tube all day. That's one of the reasons why the Citylink 900 is quite successful, in that it caters for the all day two way demand, Edinburgh to Glasgow. It also calls in at places just off the M8, to give these otherwise unserved places a direct link to the big cities. I'm suggesting Harthill motorway services, which has a public footpath to Harthill village.

Just thinking of another thing about Oxford, the fact that the two main operators of buses in the area both provide the service, means through ticketing is possible. What if the NBC had transferred the Oxford - London service over to National Express in 1980? Would we have seen what we see today?

 

[Busaholic]

The M40 and even A40 are, except when there are long-term roadworks or short-term accidents, much less crowded than most other radial routes into London, particularly those from South, SouthEast, East or NorthEast of London. Roadworks associated with the previous Mayor's Cyclesuperhighway have only compounded the delays to road traffic from those areas, and led Chalkwell Coaches to cut the number of coaches from Kent.

 

[Antman]

The M40 and even A40 are, except when there are long-term roadworks or short-term accidents, much less crowded than most other radial routes into London, particularly those from South, SouthEast, East or NorthEast of London. Roadworks associated with the previous Mayor's Cyclesuperhighway have only compounded the delays to road traffic from those areas, and led Chalkwell Coaches to cut the number of coaches from Kent.

Chalkwell cut journeys because of cycle superhighway work? They introduced new services from the Maidstone area last year.
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The Oxford Tube seems to have been very successful, and I can't help wondering therefore why Oxford seems to be the only city that has this kind of bus service? Is there something that Oxford has that - say - Reading, Cambridge, Southampton or Brighton don't have, which would be essential to make a frequent express bus to London work? Or is it just a case of, noone's bothered trying it for other cities?

Any thoughts?

Pre HS1 I thought Canterbury might have been a candidate?

 

[backontrack]

Pre HS1 I thought Canterbury might have been a candidate?

Canterbury gets a pretty good frequency to London Victoria Coach Station already. National Express serve it around hourly on routes 007 (London-Dover) and 022 (London-Ramsgate).

 

[PeterC]

There are plenty of town/city pairs with hourly or half hourly daytime coach services. The thing about Oxford Tube is that it has a 24*7 service and metro turn up and go frequencies during the day.

 

[Ianno87]

What's the market share of Oxford to London coach services compared with rail ?
Another question could be why Cambridge another student dominated city doesn't have Oxford tube style services. I think it's all down to journey time in this instance.


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Cambridge already has the situation that Oxford will have after next year - two competing rail routes into London, which appeals to the student market due to the option of going 'cheap' into Liverpool Street via Greater Anglia (and GTR competing with them at weekends with their cheap Super Off Peak Fares)

Cambridge also offers a 48 minute journey time every half hour for most of the day, non-stop, with excellent onward connections at Kings Cross/St Pancras/Euston in all directions.

Another factor that makes the Oxford Tube successful is the large population it passes through in Headington on its way to the M40, for who getting to Oxford station is a faff.

Coaches from Cambridge meanwhile would pass through Trumpington on their way to the M11, which has only become 'densely' populated over the last few years due to new housing. Historically, most of the city's population density is to the North West, North and East of the city, that a London-bound coach would not naturally pass through from the city centre. So people from these areas might as well go get the train just as easily from Cambridge station as they could get on a coach from the city centre or Trumpington Park & Ride , with a quicker journey time to boot.

 

[Hadders]

Cambridge has a non-stop express rail service to London taking 45 minutes. At certain times of the day you'd be lucky to even get fro the City Centre to the M11 in 45 minutes!

 

[Busaholic]

Chalkwell cut journeys because of cycle superhighway work? They introduced new services from the Maidstone area last year.

Yes, read it in current edition of Bus and Coach Week. Chalkwell say that though Aldgate may be finished at last, the decrease in road space there and other locations coupled with TfL's refusal to consequently consider adjusting Upper Thames Street traffic light timings have impacted their operations seriously. A study by an impartial body has shown there has been a decrease of 20% in Central London road space during B.Johnson's two terms of mayoral office, and with no decrease in traffic that means more congestion and less mph. After all those years of growth in London bus travel, passenger numbers are falling, frequencies are being reduced (even though the number of buses is usually maintained, or sometimes even increased slightly) and morale of bus drivers decreases. Depressing, really.

 

[Antman]

Yes, read it in current edition of Bus and Coach Week. Chalkwell say that though Aldgate may be finished at last, the decrease in road space there and other locations coupled with TfL's refusal to consequently consider adjusting Upper Thames Street traffic light timings have impacted their operations seriously. A study by an impartial body has shown there has been a decrease of 20% in Central London road space during B.Johnson's two terms of mayoral office, and with no decrease in traffic that means more congestion and less mph. After all those years of growth in London bus travel, passenger numbers are falling, frequencies are being reduced (even though the number of buses is usually maintained, or sometimes even increased slightly) and morale of bus drivers decreases. Depressing, really.

Well this isn't the thread to be debating Boris Johnson's term as mayor but far more people are cycling nowadays because it is a lot safer now, I'd hardly call that depressing.

Low morale amongst bus drivers has more to do with the race to the bottom as far as wages are concerned but that's route tendering for you.

 

[duncombec]

Chalkwell told their customers via twitter it was because the passenger numbers on those coaches meant the services were no longer commercially viable. Whether that is a different angle on the same situation or not, I don't know.

Chalkwell did not introduce any extra services last year. When they launched their "GoCard", which is basically just a variant of the OAP pass in how it works, they actually cut services - Sittingbourne routes went from 5 or 6 to 4. There was a lot of discontent that they were promoting an improved service that resulted in fewer coaches.

They have been hit by Kings Ferry as well - in the same way that Chalkwell have been promoting their cheaper fares over Kings Ferry for years (especially from Sittingbourne and common stops such as Bridgewood or Tollgate), Kings Ferry have decided to bite back. From what I've seen, people are prepared to pay more and walk.

Were you to read Kings Ferry's twitter page you'd think they were awful. Then read Chalkwell's when they break down, and have to wait 30 minutes on the side of the motorway or the A2 for the next coach to take them...

 

[Antman]

Chalkwell told their customers via twitter it was because the passenger numbers on those coaches meant the services were no longer commercially viable. Whether that is a different angle on the same situation or not, I don't know.

Chalkwell did not introduce any extra services last year. When they launched their "GoCard", which is basically just a variant of the OAP pass in how it works, they actually cut services - Sittingbourne routes went from 5 or 6 to 4. There was a lot of discontent that they were promoting an improved service that resulted in fewer coaches.

They have been hit by Kings Ferry as well - in the same way that Chalkwell have been promoting their cheaper fares over Kings Ferry for years (especially from Sittingbourne and common stops such as Bridgewood or Tollgate), Kings Ferry have decided to bite back. From what I've seen, people are prepared to pay more and walk.

Were you to read Kings Ferry's twitter page you'd think they were awful. Then read Chalkwell's when they break down, and have to wait 30 minutes on the side of the motorway or the A2 for the next coach to take them...

I've read elsewhere that Chalkwell reduced the Maidstone service from five to three coaches because of poor usage and that carrying 15 people in a 49 seater was simply not viable. Kings Ferry have recently introduced a commuter service from Maidstone which will have obviously had an effect.

A friend of mine uses Kings Ferry from Rainham regularly and he's found them very good.

 

[duncombec]

I've read elsewhere that Chalkwell reduced the Maidstone service from five to three coaches because of poor usage and that carrying 15 people in a 49 seater was simply not viable. Kings Ferry have recently introduced a commuter service from Maidstone which will have obviously had an effect.

A friend of mine uses Kings Ferry from Rainham regularly and he's found them very good.

*I* use Kings Ferry, and they are. Not perfect by a long shot, but certainly very good.

You never know if people will actually use a service they claim they want, but there were a fair few requests for KF to add a further coach to the Maidstone service to serve the now coach-less (or fewer-coached) Chalkwell passengers.

Strange to consider that 20 years ago there was a full daytime service between London and Maidstone via Green Line!

 

[notadriver]

Canterbury gets a pretty good frequency to London Victoria Coach Station already. National Express serve it around hourly on routes 007 (London-Dover) and 022 (London-Ramsgate).

I used to drive this route. The 1h50 timing is optimistic. 2 hours or more is the usual with London traffic.


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[DynamicSpirit]

Yes, read it in current edition of Bus and Coach Week. Chalkwell say that though Aldgate may be finished at last, the decrease in road space there and other locations coupled with TfL's refusal to consequently consider adjusting Upper Thames Street traffic light timings have impacted their operations seriously. A study by an impartial body has shown there has been a decrease of 20% in Central London road space during B.Johnson's two terms of mayoral office, and with no decrease in traffic that means more congestion and less mph. After all those years of growth in London bus travel, passenger numbers are falling, frequencies are being reduced (even though the number of buses is usually maintained, or sometimes even increased slightly) and morale of bus drivers decreases. Depressing, really.

My understanding of research in the area is that usually when road space decreases, traffic tends to decrease proportionately, so by itself the additional space given to cyclists shouldn't have had much impact. I suspect the real culprit is the growth in services like Uber - something that the Mayor is somehow going to have to tackle if he is to restore the reliability of bus and coach services.

I'm slightly surprised though that this is affecting companies like Chalkwell but I've not heard of it affecting the Oxford Tube.
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Canterbury gets a pretty good frequency to London Victoria Coach Station already. National Express serve it around hourly on routes 007 (London-Dover) and 022 (London-Ramsgate).

Don't you have to book in advance on National Express though? Makes it a qualitatively very different service, even aside from the issue of hourly not being a 'turn up and go' frequencies.

 

[Antman]

*I* use Kings Ferry, and they are. Not perfect by a long shot, but certainly very good.

You never know if people will actually use a service they claim they want, but there were a fair few requests for KF to add a further coach to the Maidstone service to serve the now coach-less (or fewer-coached) Chalkwell passengers.

Strange to consider that 20 years ago there was a full daytime service between London and Maidstone via Green Line!

Correct if I'm wrong but didn't Chalkwell take over the commuter services from Arriva/New Enterprise?

I remember the all day Invictaway service back in the 80's.

 

[Deerfold]

Don't you have to book in advance on National Express though? Makes it a qualitatively very different service, even aside from the issue of hourly not being a 'turn up and go' frequencies.

You're advised to as there's no guarantee of a seat, but there's a thread on here about turning up and paying on board - I've done it many times.

Season tickets are sold on quite a few routes (including the Cambridge - London service) with a few regulars. The 010 has a more commuter-friendly route in the peaks, though I'm surprised it's lost the stops in the Cambridge suburbs it had a few years ago.

http://www.nationalexpress.com/assets/uploads/pdf/timetables/R010.pdf