Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Sadsmileyface]

So, telling Rostering departments not to give overtime to people who had gone on strike is competent management?

If I was working for Southern, I don't think I'd go five minutes over my day if I was offered 12 hours and tomorrow off with pay. And it wouldn't be because a union rep had a quiet word with me...

Why should they allow strikers to top up their lost earnings?

 

[Flamingo]

Why should they allow strikers to top up their lost earnings?

Well, off the top of my head, because without those workers working overtime, they do not employ enough staff to run their trains?

Of course, if GTR's priority is to punish their staff, then that is the correct course of action.

But it does show that GTR management do not consider providing a service to their paying customers as their priority.

 

[Dave1987]

Do any pro DOO members have any comments about the latest rule book change in the PON? RSSB clearly very concerned about passengers detraining onto the track of their own accord. I seem to remember one of the worst cases of passengers detraining on their own accord was a DOO service.

 

[BRblue]

Do any pro DOO members have any comments about the latest rule book change in the PON? RSSB clearly very concerned about passengers detraining onto the track of their own accord. I seem to remember one of the worst cases of passengers detraining on their own accord was a DOO service.

To be fair many of the pro DOO members are probably not aware of the changes...
I must admit I have already sought clarification regarding the rule book change from my manager, it's a bit too ambiguous for me. And it doesn't really differentiate between DOO and Driver with guard which could make a big difference.
Oh and they presume the signaller knows what is going on....
Hmmmmm presumption is the mother of all $%£# ups, as they say.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To be fair many of the pro DOO members are probably not aware of the changes...
I must admit I have already sought clarification regarding the rule book change from my manager, it's a bit too ambiguous for me. And it doesn't really differentiate between DOO and Driver with guard which could make a big difference.
Oh and they presume the signaller knows what is going on....
Hmmmmm presumption is the mother of all $%£# ups, as they say.

Would it be a good idea if the rule book was written in a clear and concise fashion, in order that those who have to abide by the strictures of the said rule book can immediately be aware of the implications stated therein, without the need to make recourse to another person.

Thank God, that I have nothing to do with writing of any rule books as my current post-stroke style of expression in print goes totally against what I have said above...:roll:

 

[philthetube]

Whether the overtime ban is official or unofficial, if your rewriting a timetable that cancels over 300 trains a day then there is something seriously wrong with your staffing numbers or recruitment policy. It's not the fault of the staff or unions but of the DfT for not ensuring the correct establishment numbers are kept at a reasonable level. Govia can take a lot of blame as well, it's not as if they've just got the Southern franchise last week but more like a decade ago.


Unions can advise at various company council meetings about the lack of staff and can talk about the required numbers for each depot but have limited power. It's a risky business because people can decide to stop working overtime next week for whatever reason but it takes months for guards to recruit and train or nearly 2 years for a driver. The company loves overtime as it avoids the need for having a full staffing complement so is cheaper. The only real power the unions can force the hand of the company to recruit is not tosanction RDW as in the case of ASLEF during the FCC era.

part of the staffing issue is caused by certain tocs not training drivers, but poaching them from other operators, something else the DFT ought to look at.

 

[redbutton]

part of the staffing issue is caused by certain tocs not training drivers, but poaching them from other operators, something else the DFT ought to look at.

I'm not sure what can really be done about that. Experienced drivers will always want to move from the lower-paid higher-workload metro TOCs to the higher-paid lower-workload intercity TOCs, rarely in the other direction.

Now, if the franchise contracts were to actually specify that the TOC is required to employ enough full-time drivers to cover all the work (taking into account an average level of non-productivity due to sickness/offtrack/training/union release/etc), that would go a long way.

As it stands now, at least at my TOC, they're only required to have enough spares to cover booked annual leave. As soon as someone goes sick or offtrack, there's uncovered work.

I imagine that's Southern's real problem; the labour disputes just exacerbate it.

 

[Robertj21a]

I'm not sure what can really be done about that. Experienced drivers will always want to move from the lower-paid higher-workload metro TOCs to the higher-paid lower-workload intercity TOCs, rarely in the other direction.

Now, if the franchise contracts were to actually specify that the TOC is required to employ enough full-time drivers to cover all the work (taking into account an average level of non-productivity due to sickness/offtrack/training/union release/etc), that would go a long way.

As it stands now, at least at my TOC, they're only required to have enough spares to cover booked annual leave. As soon as someone goes sick or offtrack, there's uncovered work.

I imagine that's Southern's real problem; the labour disputes just exacerbate it.

Anyone know how the Swiss, Germans etc [I'll leave out the French.......] go about achieving the 'correct' staffing levels ? - assuming they do. They might not have the same proportion of TOCs that exist in the UK but they've certainly got a number of non-state operators.

 

[ComUtoR]

Why should they allow strikers to top up their lost earnings?

They shouldn't, and they don't.

 

[FordFocus]

Why should they allow strikers to top up their lost earnings?

Why not?

As flamingo says, GTR need it's staff on overtime because it can't run a basic service without overtime.

 

[LBSCR Times]

Why not?

As flamingo says, GTR need it's staff on overtime because it can't run a basic service without overtime.

And to think that when GTR took over FCC, they complained that FCC left them short of drivers......
And yes, the TL route is short of drivers, but nothing compared to the mess the Southern management carried forward!

However, both management and union are to blame in that both sides always want vacancies, whatever job position, as they know that some staff always want overtime, irrespective of how much they earn / take home.

 

[SPADTrap]

And to think that when GTR took over FCC, they complained that FCC left them short of drivers......
And yes, the TL route is short of drivers, but nothing compared to the mess the Southern management carried forward!

However, both management and union are to blame in that both sides always want vacancies, whatever job position, as they know that some staff always want overtime, irrespective of how much they earn / take home.

Unions are against overtime generally.

 

[Carlisle]

Anyone know how the Swiss, Germans etc [I'll leave out the French.......] go about achieving the 'correct' staffing levels ? - assuming they do. They might not have the same proportion of TOCs that exist in the UK but they've certainly got a number of non-state operators.

Possibly some of their traincrew depots might still consist of one large pool of drivers covering both freight and passanger work like many did in BR times,

 

[bnm]

Is the RMT conceding ground, by offering to pause hostilities, an acceptance that it is a battle they can't win? Looking for the best way out rather than holding their original position?

Conceding ground is rarely done from a position of strength.

 

[philthetube]

And to think that when GTR took over FCC, they complained that FCC left them short of drivers......
And yes, the TL route is short of drivers, but nothing compared to the mess the Southern management carried forward!

However, both management and union are to blame in that both sides always want vacancies, whatever job position, as they know that some staff always want overtime, irrespective of how much they earn / take home.

Unions don't have a say on how many drivers are employed.

Perhaps employing tocs could be required to pay a "transfer fee" when employing drivers trained by another company, this is something the dft should look at. Possibly one of the reasons why some companies are understaffed is because they know that they will get higher turnover if overtime is not available.

 

[Agent_c]

Why not?

As flamingo says, GTR need it's staff on overtime because it can't run a basic service without overtime.

It seems some on here believe a company should cut off its nose to spite its (public) face.

 

[LBSCR Times]

It seems some on here believe a company should cut off its nose to spite its (public) face.

And I remember back to BR days when we had a full establishment at one depot, and there was rostered sickness as a result.

 

[HH]

Unions don't have a say on how many drivers are employed.

Not strictly true. At some TOCs there is a negotiated, agreed driver number (ratio) based on the number of diagrams.

 

[ComUtoR]

Not strictly true. At some TOCs there is a negotiated, agreed driver number (ratio) based on the number of diagrams.

The establishment level.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Unions are against overtime generally.

Which is interesting, really - isn't it in the interest of employees on the whole to be demanded, and to have the option of working overtime if they'd like to; but in the interest of the unions to have more members even if those don't have as much overtime on tap?

 

[BRblue]

Is the RMT conceding ground, by offering to pause hostilities, an acceptance that it is a battle they can't win? Looking for the best way out rather than holding their original position?

Conceding ground is rarely done from a position of strength.

But when you have an impass as you have here... then surely for the sake of the travelling public some ground has to be conceded?
And let's not forget GTR has relented by returning the travel perks, parking permits and mutual shift changes, so I would call that pretty even wouldn't you?

 

[ComUtoR]

Is the RMT conceding ground, by offering to pause hostilities, an acceptance that it is a battle they can't win? Looking for the best way out rather than holding their original position?

Conceding ground is rarely done from a position of strength.

Militant Unions disrupting passengers and refusing to negotiate. Unions offering to negotiate and help prevent disruption to the public makes them weak.

:roll:

Nobody wants strike action.

 

[HH]

The establishment level.

Yes, establishment. But if a TOC makes no effort to meet establishment ASLEF might refuse to renew the RDW agreement, etc. So they have a stake in the numbers.

 

[Carlisle]

Which is interesting, really - isn't it in the interest of employees on the whole to be demanded, and to have the option of working overtime if they'd like to; but in the interest of the unions to have more members even if those don't have as much overtime on tap?

I think you've summed up the unions very long standing theoretical position on overtime perfectly, however as long as I can remember in the real world bosses will know who wants lots of overtime and who wants none and distribute it accordingly, but maybe drivers are the exception with RDW agreements etc as I've not heard of them elsewhere

 

[redbutton]

I think you've summed up the unions very long standing theoretical position on overtime perfectly, however as long as I can remember in the real world bosses will know who wants lots of overtime and who wants none and distribute it accordingly, but maybe drivers are the exception with RDW agreements etc as I've not heard of them elsewhere

There is no RDW agreement at GTR-Southern. Each driver decides on his or her own whether to work a particular rest day based on whatever terms he or she is able to negotiate with the production managers.

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes, establishment. But if a TOC makes no effort to meet establishment ASLEF might refuse to renew the RDW agreement, etc. So they have a stake in the numbers.

In all my years at my TOC I have never seen the TOC meet the establishment level and ASLEF always renew the RDW agreement. I have also seen establishment levels tweaked to meet staffing levels because its easier to reduce the establishment than to employ new Drivers.

The way in which TOC's run rosters is disgraceful. Possibly one of the nation wide complaints about a TOC from the internals is the roster problems. It has been discussed at length before on this forum and goes from complicated to crazy.

For everyone looking at what his happening at Southern. Understand that this is a consequence of running a business on overtime and goodwill. There is not enough staff to run the service at normal levels. The slightest knock and the service falls apart. At my depot we have 1 morning cover and 1 afternoon cover and they don't even overlap ! The TOC tried to remove cover altogether but the Union fought against it (to protect the service)

I have no faith that the staffing levels will ever be met and the TOC will always keep levels artificially low

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's about the industry average for the % of duties covered by either RDW or overtime?

 

[LBSCR Times]

At my depot we have 1 morning cover and 1 afternoon cover and they don't even overlap ! The TOC tried to remove cover altogether but the Union fought against it (to protect the service)

In the same way there used to be a 04.00 CMEE crew at both Brighton and Selhurst, whose first priority was to move stock before the start of service, to ensure the outstations were balanced.
But of course another saving, and now we run short in the morning peak!

 

[ComUtoR]

What's about the industry average for the % of duties covered by either RDW or overtime?

It is a very complex issue. When the roster is cast it is done with 100% coverage of staff. There is a set % of flexibility that comes from Spare turns to cover training, sickness, annual leave, route learning and the many business requirements.

The problem is that the % of Spare turns and the built in flexibility just doesn't meet the requirements. Either the maths is wrong or that their thinking is way off. Take the introduction of the 700's. There has to be training done and that can take a number of Drivers off at any one time. Their turns need to be covered but when your already covering turns with RDW (rest day working) then you need more RDW. There isn't enough Drivers to cover situations like this. What I find frustrating is that due to the link working we do there is always traction training and route training to be done as people move between links. At what point do you call it poor planning ?

London Bridge briefings need to be done and that is taking staff off the rosters but again we do so many briefings per year it seems poor planning to not have enough rostering flexibility to cover the business.

Charles Horton (iirc) stated that there was an expectation of around 5% overtime. If their mentality is already to have 5% RDW then it seems obvious that the staffing level is already under establishment. To blame a few days of strike action on months and months of disruption is disingenuous.

RDW is cheaper. With all the goodwill lost and the reporting that people are not working their rest days (ban not withstanding) I would love to know the actual figures of RDW still being done. Oddly Charles Horton didn't have those figures to hand...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

London Bridge briefings need to be done and that is taking staff off the rosters but again we do so many briefings per year it seems poor planning to not have enough rostering flexibility to cover the business.

Will all links that sign London Bridge (SouthEastern, Southern and ThamesLink) need to re-learn and re-sign London Bridge once all the rebuild works are finally complete?