Tied to particular train on advances - even though Northern don't do reservations

[OhNoAPacer]

I had noticed that when travelling Whitehaven - Northampton via Barrow in Furness (then changing at Lancaster and Rugby) that as well as the previous reservation for Virgin and London Midland that I also had, like LM, a pseudo-reservation for the BIF to Lancaster leg. I had put this down to maybe this going to be one of the Northern Connect services.
I have just received my tickets for another Whitehaven to Northampton journey, but this time via Carlisle. I have received a pseudo-reservation for the Whitehaven to Carlisle leg. This does not seem very passenger friendly. It won't bother me, as I would be use that train anyway, but I can see situations, where the connection at Carlisle is quite tight, where people may have preferred to travel on an earlier service to ensure they got the connection at Carlisle, for example if booked Whitehaven - Euston on the 11:28 from Whitehaven then this arrives Carlisle 12:38 and the Euston train departs 12:49. Yes you would be allowed on a later service if the whitehaven train meant you missed your connection, yes you could claim delay repay, but people do worry about missing their connection, and also delay repay or not, you still end up late at your destination, and later still if your journey carried on further than Euston.
Anybody any idea why this change has happened?

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can always ask the planner to lengthen interchange times when you book. And it means the passenger gets the time written down for them on the ticket, and there is no confusion.

Can't see a problem with it.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Once when booking an Advance from Colchester to Chester, I was annoyed to find that I had been given a seat on a timed train from Colchester which only gave me 40 mins to get from to Liverpool Street to Euston. On that particular day, there were major closures on the London Underground, so it was extremely tight. I would have preferred to travel earlier but I wasn't given that option.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I an manually set connection times on my STaR machine far more flexible than Trainline who will just spew out the perceived quickest journey.

 

[Starmill]

You can always ask the planner to lengthen interchange times when you book. And it means the passenger gets the time written down for them on the ticket, and there is no confusion.

Can't see a problem with it.

Changing connection times is far easier said than done. Only Trainsplit does that properly.

 

[trainophile]

I have to do that every time now, for my Southport to Hereford journey via Manchester, to avoid a change at Salford Crescent and a 12 minute connection at Piccadilly, which is usually more like five as my train is invariably late.

It's a right PITA on VTEC's website, which I still mainly use out of habit . Have to go into Accessibility, and select text only display, then go through every stage individually.

It also means I can't book my outbound and return journey in one fell swoop, or if it can be done I haven't worked out how yet!

Strangely, on the odd occasion I book through ATW's website they automatically default to the longer connection time on my usual journey.

Would be interesting to find out how rigidly Northern enforce these local service timed tickets. Making more of a meal of it than is necessary I'd say.

 

[ashworth]

It doesn't just seem to be Northern that are doing this. Perhaps it is becoming more widespread.
I've recently booked Advance Tickets to/from Nottingham to London Kings Cross changing at Grantham. These do currently often seem to be considerably cheaper than fares on direct services to St. Pancras. These are Virgin East Coast and Connections tickets. For the first time ever I have reservations for the EMT connecting service from Nottongham to Grantham. I've never known this before on the normally unreservable Skegness service. Like Northern the reservations are just for the booked train and don't have specific seat numbered reservations.
On my outward journey the connection time is only 12 minutes at Grantham. I know that is quite adequate if my train from Nottingham is on time even to negotiate the footbridge with luggage. However, on this occasion I didn't want to be any later arriving in London and so to avoid any unexpected delay I would probably have travelled an hour earlier to Grantham if it had been allowed as always has been in the past.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Would be interesting to find out how rigidly Northern enforce these local service timed tickets. Making more of a meal of it than is necessary I'd say.

You'd have to do a survey of Northern Guards, but I doubt many really take much notice on longer distance tickets. The aim of the 'booked place' reservations on Northern services was to allow their own Advance tickets to be sold. I've seen plenty of 'booked place' reservations on Northern services for one-stop-hops using Anytime and Off-Peak tickets.

 

[trainophile]

I messed up at Preston yesterday, waited on the wrong platform and consequently missed my timed Northern train to Ormskirk by half a minute when It finally dawned on me that it was odd that I was the only person there, so I checked RTT on my phone and ran for it!

(In my defence, all the overhead PIS screens were showing "Not in service", and having only a few minutes connection time off my Virgin inbound I didn't think I had time to go into the waiting room to check, so stupidly assumed it would be the same platform (3c) that I came in on on Monday - it wasn't, it was platform 1 ).

I might have just made it, but I was held up by a ticket check on the bridge, and when I explained my predicament to the checker and said my ticket wouldn't be valid for the next one would it, and asked him if he would mind endorsing it, he said "it doesn't matter, don't worry".

I think that answers my earlier question about the degree of enforcement!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I might have just made it, but I was held up by a ticket check on the bridge

For future reference, you ran past the subway, which if you'd used it you might have made it as it'd have saved you about 30 seconds even without the ticket check. But these things happen.

Preston-Ormskirk trains go from 1 or 2 more often than 3C. They tend to only use 3C where there is a long layover or something is running out of course.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks Neil. I am not very familiar with Preston station, and I'm usually very careful to check platform numbers on my phone before I even get to an interchange, but for some reason on Wednesday I got careless :roll: . Can't believe now that I stood on an empty platform until a few minutes before my train was due to depart, and never wondered where it was (knowing that it started and terminated there), or why I was the only passenger!

The underpass and lifts are well concealed if you don't know your way around the station, and there are also major "improvement" works going on at present, which adds to the noise and confusion, with pneumatic drills at full blast and areas fenced off. Added to the short connection time, and the non-working PIS screens, it was all a bit of a shambles .

I should have added on my first post that the guard on the train I eventually caught did come through checking tickets, but he barely glanced at mine. I think if you don't look guilty, and maybe if you are of an older generation, they just assume your ticket is valid. I don't blame them not scrutinising every ticket in minute detail, it would be a strain on their eyesight.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

First of all apologies for having started this thread in the wrong forum, it was a pure error on my part, my intention was to post in this forum but obviously I had a brain fade when posting.

Having just booked another journey Whitehaven-Northampton, via Barrow I notice that the Whitehaven-Barrow leg has no 'reservation'. I am more intrigued than anything by when I will get a 'reservation' and when not. It does kind of imply to me that Northern are going to offer advances on Barrow - Lancaster (and points south?) and Whitehaven to Carlisle, but not Whitehaven to Barrow.
This however seems to not make sense when thought about, does this mean North of Barrow but South of Whitehaven to Carlisle will have no advances?
One other thing that seems a bit of an anomaly is that for 2 journeys I have booked in August. Whitehaven- Northampton via Carlisle, and Northampton-Whitehaven via Carlisle, both Advance. On the Whitehaven-Northampton journey I have a 'reservation' on the Whitehaven to Carlisle leg, but on the Northampton-Whitehaven journey there is no reservation on the Carlisle to Whitehaven leg. Both journeys are on Saturday's, so it cannot be a weekday v weekend thing.
It all seems confusing and almost random.
It makes no difference to me as I would be getting the trains I am getting with or without a 'reservation', but it would appear to be wildly inconsistent.
Whenever I have advances then my leg into or out of Northampton with London Midland will be one of the coach * seat ** reservations, so at least it is consistent.

 

[bradford758]

As an aside, most Bradford to Manchester Victoria trains offer an advance single ticket, valid for a particular train. No seat reservation is offered.

Sent from my 4009X using Tapatalk

 

[crehld]

Attached is a ticket I used last weekend between Crewe and Hellifield. The leg between Crewe and Lancaster is obviously reservable. The leg between Lancaster and Hellifield is not reservable, even (from what I can tell) for counted place advance ticket purposes. So why, then, have I been issued with a ticket which includes a reservation for this leg?

The ticket was booked using Virgin Trains's trainline powered booking engine. Other booking engines do not appear to produce this anomaly.

I'm not too bothered about tight connections as, in the event of a delay, no matter how slight, I am entitled to take the next available train to my destination.

 

[gray1404]

1348 does not have counted place reservations so I'm confused as to why the ticket printed in such a way to tie you to that train.

 

[trentside]

It doesn't just seem to be Northern that are doing this. Perhaps it is becoming more widespread.
I've recently booked Advance Tickets to/from Nottingham to London Kings Cross changing at Grantham. These do currently often seem to be considerably cheaper than fares on direct services to St. Pancras. These are Virgin East Coast and Connections tickets. For the first time ever I have reservations for the EMT connecting service from Nottongham to Grantham. I've never known this before on the normally unreservable Skegness service. Like Northern the reservations are just for the booked train and don't have specific seat numbered reservations.
On my outward journey the connection time is only 12 minutes at Grantham. I know that is quite adequate if my train from Nottingham is on time even to negotiate the footbridge with luggage. However, on this occasion I didn't want to be any later arriving in London and so to avoid any unexpected delay I would probably have travelled an hour earlier to Grantham if it had been allowed as always has been in the past.

This has been going on for awhile with certain trains on the Skegness route. I often find a polite request to the guard to travel on an earlier service will yield positive results unless the train is absolutely wedged

 

[Hadders]

Didn't the large style tickets around 10 years ago (Elgar?) print suggested connecting services on them?

This looks like something similar, although the connecting services need to be flagged as suggested rather than mandatory.

 

[gray1404]

Correct. The had suggested service printed were the seat reservation coach and seat number would have been and were not printed as compulsory services.

However, the concept of counted place reservations/spaces didn't exist in those days.

 

[urbophile]

I should have noticed this thread when I started another one on the same topic. I don't understand the concept of 'counted places': of course the TOC can keep check of the number of Advance tickets it sells and hence count a (small) proportion of the train's accommodation, but how can it claim them as a 'reservation'? If it happened that a train was overwhelmed with a vast crowd of passengers (for whatever reason: football match, cancellation of the previous train...) would some of them be turfed off if I claimed my 'reserved' seat? Somehow I don't think so.

Incidentally, I have had an email from TransPennine Express (interestingly, as I thought the Man. Airport to Liverpool service was Northern) assuring me that in the event of a delayed flight arrival, I would be able to use the Advance ticket on any train within 3 hours.

 

[janb]

I should have noticed this thread when I started another one on the same topic. I don't understand the concept of 'counted places': of course the TOC can keep check of the number of Advance tickets it sells and hence count a (small) proportion of the train's accommodation, but how can it claim them as a 'reservation'? If it happened that a train was overwhelmed with a vast crowd of passengers (for whatever reason: football match, cancellation of the previous train...) would some of them be turfed off if I claimed my 'reserved' seat? Somehow I don't think so.

a) it allows advances to be sold on trains that aren't set up in the NRS with seat numbers etc.

b) on busy routes where its a struggle to honour reservations, or people are intimidated by the piece of white paper and don't read whats on it, and could be sat down instead of stood up it allows for more efficient use of seating.

Incidentally, I have had an email from TransPennine Express (interestingly, as I thought the Man. Airport to Liverpool service was Northern) assuring me that in the event of a delayed flight arrival, I would be able to use the Advance ticket on any train within 3 hours.

Northern do the 3 hour thing as well FWIW. (announced 6 weeks into the new franchise after I for one - used to dealing with TPE - had raised the issue in the first week)

 

[AlterEgo]

I should have noticed this thread when I started another one on the same topic. I don't understand the concept of 'counted places': of course the TOC can keep check of the number of Advance tickets it sells and hence count a (small) proportion of the train's accommodation, but how can it claim them as a 'reservation'? If it happened that a train was overwhelmed with a vast crowd of passengers (for whatever reason: football match, cancellation of the previous train...) would some of them be turfed off if I claimed my 'reserved' seat? Somehow I don't think so.

Incidentally, I have had an email from TransPennine Express (interestingly, as I thought the Man. Airport to Liverpool service was Northern) assuring me that in the event of a delayed flight arrival, I would be able to use the Advance ticket on any train within 3 hours.

All the "counted place" is, is a reservation on a particular train. It doesn't correspond to any seat. As a passenger, it is there to tell you which train you should be on.

 

[trentside]

To some extent a counted place reservation also helps prevent the old chestnut of people turning up at the time on their reservation for their main journey, with the connection long gone. It's always the fault of the staff too, not the fact they didn't check their itinerary...

 

[trainophile]

How odd. I just collected an Advance ticket which I booked on the ATW website specifically because it gives a choice of connecting services so I chose the earlier one, and this time it hasn't printed a specific time for the Northern part of the journey, only for the ATW part.

It reads (underneath all the overprinted stuff about my railcard)...

connecting services
Manchester Piccadilly -> Hereford
(Date) 14.30 Arriva Trains No specific seat

So presumably "connecting services" means I can take whichever Northern train into Manchester that I want, on this occasion.

Wonder whether they have had complaints, and reversed their practice to how it used to be.

 

[gray1404]

It would appear to depend which site you book the tickets on as is weather it ties you to a certain Northern service or not?

How does the ATW site give you a choice of connecting services exactly?

Am I still right in saying that on ATW services that do offer actual seat reservations, they do not give these to people who hold Advance tickets when they book online. I have always thought this practice is wrong. Lets face it, people with Advances are more likely to be on the train and how frustrating to be on a train which offers reservations but you have not been given one.

 

[trainophile]

It would appear to depend which site you book the tickets on as is weather it ties you to a certain Northern service or not?

How does the ATW site give you a choice of connecting services exactly?

Am I still right in saying that on ATW services that do offer actual seat reservations, they do not give these to people who hold Advance tickets when they book online. I have always thought this practice is wrong. Lets face it, people with Advances are more likely to be on the train and how frustrating to be on a train which offers reservations but you have not been given one.

I put my date, approximate departure time and journey details into the ATW site, and it brings up two journeys for the same ATW onwards train. The default one when using VTEC to connect with the 1430 MAN-Milford Haven train is the 1251 ex-Southport, changing at Salford Crescent and arriving at MAN 1418. But the ATW site offers both 1251 departure and my preferred one of 1223 with no change, both connecting with the 1430 ex-MAN but depending on whether you mind waiting around or want to leave a bit later and can cope with a short connection time.

It's a bit like the online information on Merseyrail route planners, if you are coming in on the Northern Line and departing from Lime Street. On those you generally get two options for the same journey - changing at Moorfields or changing at Central and walking to Lime Street. They allow longer if you select the walking option, although in my experience there's not much in it!

By boarding at MAN which is where my South Wales train starts, the lack of a reservation doesn't really worry me. I do agree that people boarding at Crewe or Shrewsbury can sometimes struggle to find a seat, especially at busy times and when it's only a 2-coach train.

 

[AlterEgo]

How odd. I just collected an Advance ticket which I booked on the ATW website specifically because it gives a choice of connecting services so I chose the earlier one, and this time it hasn't printed a specific time for the Northern part of the journey, only for the ATW part.

It reads (underneath all the overprinted stuff about my railcard)...

connecting services
Manchester Piccadilly -> Hereford
(Date) 14.30 Arriva Trains No specific seat

So presumably "connecting services" means I can take whichever Northern train into Manchester that I want, on this occasion.

Wonder whether they have had complaints, and reversed their practice to how it used to be.

If the "and connections" part of the journey is on Northern, then you aren't tied to a specific train. So there ought not to be a reservation slip for that part of the journey.

 

[John @ home]

If the "and connections" part of the journey is on Northern, then you aren't tied to a specific train.

It used to be that the above statement was always true. Unfortunately, the introduction of Northern Advance tickets has led to an unsatisfactory situation where it is true in some circumstances but not in others.

For example, I recently travelled London St Pancras - Leeds on an Advance Single route EMT & Connections. I had reservations on both the St Pancras - Sheffield and Sheffield - Leeds legs because my connection was into a Northern Nottingham - Leeds service for which Northern Advance tickets were sold.

If I had wanted additional flexibility over the timing of the Sheffield - Leeds leg of the journey, I could have booked St Pancras - Leeds via Castleford. This would have given an itinerary with the Sheffield - Leeds leg on a stopper for which no Northern Advance tickets are sold, and my experience is that no particular Sheffield - Leeds leg would then appear on the ticket or reservation voucher.

The particularly interesting point in this thread is that trainophile appears to have discovered that, at least to some extent, whether an unreserved connection appears on the ticket or not may depend on which train company's web site was used to make the booking.

It has previously been reported here that the station at which one is directed to change when using an Advance ticket routed "TOC & Connections" sometimes depends on which site was used. For example, booking the above St Pancras - Leeds ticket with EMT leads to a change at Chesterfield, using VTEC gives a change at Sheffield. trainophile's discovery just adds to the number of variables.