Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Also who would want to work for an employer that is known to metaphorically kick their employees in the gonads and then tell them that was better than the alternative.

Since there are both male and female employees involved in this dispute, most people will understand the use of the word "gonads" in a male perspective as testicles are an organ of the body that is external in situation on the body, but the use of that word in terms of a female perspective, usually in relation to the ovaries, being an internal body organ, puts a whole new sinister perspective upon matters, where there is no metaphorical equivalent to be drawn.
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Most unions will seek to do a deal as some compromise and protecting the majority is better than no compromise and loosing the lot!

From some of the categorically made union statements since the start of this dispute tended to be similar in emphasis to that so often used by the Rev. Ian Paisley in his younger days of his war cry of "No Surrender", the point you state about "no compromise and losing the lot" rings a very large peal of bells indeed.

 

[carriageline]

RMT have apparently sent a letter to GTR, in a bid to pause the industrial action if GTR agree to pause their plans for a similar amount of time (3 months) to get them both back around the table.

Office:RMT makes new approach to seek to resolve Govia Thameslink railway dispute.
TRAIN UNION RMT is offering a new approach in a bid to resolve the GTR dispute.It is a dispute about the proposed removal of conductors from trains and the implications that removing these safety critically trained staff would have.In an open letter to GTR Chief Executive Charles Horton, RMT General Secretary Mick Cash says,“I refer to the recent hearing at the Transport Select Committee where we were both asked: What could be done to help resolve the current impasse?You will also be aware that we will have both had numerous conversations with passengers and their Members of Parliament who are asking that we go the extra mile in seeking a resolution to the dispute.I would therefore wish to develop the offer of the new approach I made at the Transport Select Committee.The RMT will suspend calling any further industrial for the next three months if you will also suspend your proposals for a similar period.This will then allow us the time and space to sit down together and try and explore options that will seek to deliver the lasting improvements to service and reliability we all want.I do hope that you can respond positively to these proposals and I look forward to hearing from you.”

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Harbornite]

Since there are both male and female employees involved in this dispute, most people will understand the use of the word "gonads" in a male perspective as testicles are an organ of the body that is external in situation on the body, but the use of that word in terms of a female perspective, usually in relation to the ovaries, being an internal body organ, puts a whole new sinister perspective upon matters, where there is no metaphorical equivalent to be drawn.
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I wouldn't look so far into it, Paul. It was just a remark.

 

[Mojo]

RMT have apparently sent a letter to GTR, in a bid to pause the industrial action if GTR agree to pause their plans for a similar amount of time (3 months) to get them both back around the table.

lt's been widely reported all morning now that GTR are not interested.

 

[FordFocus]

A logical hypothetical alternative is to ask what would be the case if it is NOT the former and if so, what then are then your views on the other scenario.

If Southern go down the RPI route then it goes without saying that I would be against it. In my experience of DOO routes with RPIs is they lack the numbers, very limited safety training (if any), only really work during the peak hours and are completely non existent onboard after 2000. You go from a journey with a fully qualified, safety trained guard to nothing. The driver then has to deal with people holding doors open and stopping to reset a pass comm in the disabled toilet as the can't find the open button.

It's of no benefit to the passenger at all.

 

[Flamingo]

lt's been widely reported all morning now that GTR are not interested.

Of course the DfT rejected it. They are not interested in comprising, they set the dispute up to win.

Any comment XDM, on the heroic management rejecting the nasty unions attempt to talk about it?

 

[tony6499]

At the meeting with Brighton MP Caroline Lucas last night GTR told her that DOO was part of their contract and they had no choice but to enforce it

 

[SPADTrap]

Since there are both male and female employees involved in this dispute, most people will understand the use of the word "gonads" in a male perspective as testicles are an organ of the body that is external in situation on the body, but the use of that word in terms of a female perspective, usually in relation to the ovaries, being an internal body organ, puts a whole new sinister perspective upon matters, where there is no metaphorical equivalent to be drawn.

What on earth are you getting at?

Your posts are so try hard they lose the point sometimes :P

 

[FordFocus]

At the meeting with Brighton MP Caroline Lucas last night GTR told her that DOO was part of their contract and they had no choice but to enforce it

Contracts can change when it suits.

You can change the criteria on performance and move the goal posts to prevent breaching cancellation and delay targets so you reduce the compensation payable. Or introduce a new timetable that removes over 300 trains a day.

But you can't change this DOO proposal where "no one loses their pay or jobs" :roll:
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What on earth are you getting at?

Your posts are so try hard they lose the point sometimes :P

Boosting the post count He get's my post of the day though!

 

[Harbornite]

What on earth are you getting at?

Your posts are so try hard they lose the point sometimes :P

His post was almost completrly irrelevant, thr gist of it being that the female staff of GTR can't be metaphorically kicked in the balls because they don't have any. As for the original ball-kicking comment, I do agree with it because the treatment of the staff in auestion hasn't been ideal, to say the least!

 

[Hellfire]

Any comment XDM, on the heroic management rejecting the nasty unions attempt to talk about it?

Thats the first time I've ever seen the words 'heroic' and 'management' in the same sentence

 

[LBSCR Times]

Of course the DfT rejected it. They are not interested in comprising, they set the dispute up to win.

Any comment XDM, on the heroic management rejecting the nasty unions attempt to talk about it?

The conversation goes.....
GTR: we wish to introduce OBS
RMT: we oppose that and insist on guards on every train

Hardly takes three minutes to say that, let along any longer.
So of course GTR management are going to refuse!

 

[hwl]

The conversation goes.....
GTR: we wish to introduce OBS
RMT: we oppose that and insist on guards on every train

Hardly takes three minutes to say that, let along any longer.
So of course GTR management are going to refuse!

Indeed, and the GTR management aren't going to waste (3minutes + travel time) x # number of attendees as everyone can see that is the outcome!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What on earth are you getting at?

Your posts are so try hard they lose the point sometimes :P

I am surprised that you have chosen to say what you have done above, as I regard you as a website member as having a concise and cognitive understanding of matters in general. The posting to which I was responding, as it was in that very same posting that person made specific reference to the word" gonads".

Have the RailUK now a part of their rules section that precludes the use of a considered matter being responded to in a posting of response, howsoever puerile the original posting may have been?

 

[HH]

Thats the first time I've ever seen the words 'heroic' and 'management' in the same sentence

One of heroic's meanings is "grandiose in scale or intention". If intentions were horses...

 

[Flamingo]

The conversation goes.....
GTR: we are going to remove guards from trains
RMT: we oppose that and insist on guards on every train

Hardly takes three minutes to say that, let along any longer.
So of course GTR management are going to refuse!

Fixed that for you
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Thats the first time I've ever seen the words 'heroic' and 'management' in the same sentence

Well, I couldn't call them what I really wanted to, the mods would delete that

 

[87015]

But official industrial action is a (relatively) minor issue from a passenger view. it's the lack of RDW / Rostering Issues that are causing the chaos, and that isn't union led, officially anyway.

 

[LBSCR Times]

But official industrial action is a (relatively) minor issue from a passenger view. it's the lack of RDW / Rostering Issues that are causing the chaos, and that isn't union led, officially anyway.

That's more like it.....

 

[HH]

But official industrial action is a (relatively) minor issue from a passenger view. it's the lack of RDW / Rostering Issues that are causing the chaos...

Which you might think is down to a lack of competence by management. You might well think that, but I couldn't possibly comment...

 

[Tomnick]

That's more like it.....

Do you really think that traincrew are falling over themselves to offer to work their rest days, delighted at the prospect of helping their employer out of a difficult hole, stalling only because their unions somehow unofficially say that they shouldn't?

 

[SPADTrap]

I am surprised that you have chosen to say what you have done above, as I regard you as a website member as having a concise and cognitive understanding of matters in general. The posting to which I was responding, as it was in that very same posting that person made specific reference to the word" gonads".

Have the RailUK now a part of their rules section that precludes the use of a considered matter being responded to in a posting of response, howsoever puerile the original posting may have been?

You are very kind, that I do not question.

You are as equally entitled to question as I, I just felt your response was reading something that wasn't there perhaps? And by 'try hard' I meant it reminded me of when I was trying to hit my 'buzz word' count at university, but it is all in jest. We're not all so eloquent

I'm off to sharpen my cognitive understanding of matters in general!

 

[Flamingo]

So, telling Rostering departments not to give overtime to people who had gone on strike is competent management?

If I was working for Southern, I don't think I'd go five minutes over my day if I was offered 12 hours and tomorrow off with pay. And it wouldn't be because a union rep had a quiet word with me...

 

[CapitalStar378]

What's going to happen to the WLL without any Southern services? There are 3 tph during the peaks which supplement the already packed LO services from Clapham Junction. What a farce, unbelievable that this is being allowed by DafT and this is just one service out of hundreds of other cancellations.

 

[Carlisle]

From some of the categorically made union statements since the start of this dispute tended to be similar in emphasis to that so often used by the Rev. Ian Paisley in his younger days of his war cry of "No Surrender", the point you state about "no compromise and losing the lot" rings a very large peal of bells indeed.

Yes but was Mr Paisley campaigning for the future sovereignty of his country or the future altered T&Cs for some of his members jobs?

 

[JamesTT]

On the subject of overtime, I was told that overtime per se wasnt banned but the practice of paying train crew for more hours than they were working when doing overtime was eg in the past they might get 12 hours pay for an 8 hour shift. Now they will get paid for the hours they do

 

[the sniper]

That's more like it.....

:roll:

Common sense would suggest that GTR's employees don't want to go out of their way to help their employer, particularly those being stripped of any real responsibility or job security. But yeah, booo the union.

 

[Flamingo]

Yes but was Mr Paisley campaigning for the future sovereignty of his country or the future altered T&Cs for some of his members jobs?

Both, really!

 

[tony6499]

On the subject of overtime, I was told that overtime per se wasnt banned but the practice of paying train crew for more hours than they were working when doing overtime was eg in the past they might get 12 hours pay for an 8 hour shift. Now they will get paid for the hours they do

It was always a Rest Day worked was the hours you did, work 8 get paid for 8. But at times of shortages the crew had the upper hand so usually it was a couple of hours on top as a sweetener.

Why would anyone want to work their day off for just flat hours pay ? Overtime should always be paid at enhanced levels otherwise there is no point doing it.

 

[FordFocus]

But official industrial action is a (relatively) minor issue from a passenger view. it's the lack of RDW / Rostering Issues that are causing the chaos, and that isn't union led, officially anyway.

Whether the overtime ban is official or unofficial, if your rewriting a timetable that cancels over 300 trains a day then there is something seriously wrong with your staffing numbers or recruitment policy. It's not the fault of the staff or unions but of the DfT for not ensuring the correct establishment numbers are kept at a reasonable level. Govia can take a lot of blame as well, it's not as if they've just got the Southern franchise last week but more like a decade ago.


Unions can advise at various company council meetings about the lack of staff and can talk about the required numbers for each depot but have limited power. It's a risky business because people can decide to stop working overtime next week for whatever reason but it takes months for guards to recruit and train or nearly 2 years for a driver. The company loves overtime as it avoids the need for having a full staffing complement so is cheaper. The only real power the unions can force the hand of the company to recruit is not tosanction RDW as in the case of ASLEF during the FCC era.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was always a Rest Day worked was the hours you did, work 8 get paid for 8. But at times of shortages the crew had the upper hand so usually it was a couple of hours on top as a sweetener.

I make the following posting in the hope that a little light relief will not go astray in lightening the current mood of this long-running thread.

There are times when I see a phrase used in a posting that makes me think I know of a song that uses the same phrase, especially concerning the preservation of a Rest Day that is stated in the song which the older website members may recognise..... "Ta Paida Tou Piraia" (NEVER ON A SUNDAY) that was sung by Melina Mercouri

The last part of the chorus goes...
But never on a Sunday, a Sunday, a Sunday
'cause that's my Day of Rest"