Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[FordFocus]

That's another issue I have with this OBS role. What exactly is the job description? It's okay for Horton and GTR to say they are 'safety trained' but that could mean absolutely anything from putting a plaster on an injured passenger to been able to carry out multi line emergency protection.

Are they a fully qualified conductor just without the requirement for using the door controls?

Are they an onboard RPI with minimal safety training just on evacuation and location of emergency equipment? No PTS, no rule book knowledge, no GSM-R knowledge, no competency assessments and certainly no door control training when the DOO fails?

If it's the former then there are minimal cost savings overall. The only cost saving I can see is they wouldn't require spare turns for links. If staff aren't available it can run DOO or with RDW.

 

[tony6499]

Better not travel on any London Overground/Underground train,most commuter trains from every London termini bar Waterloo & Euston plus Glasgow. All DOO for years.. Oh & mind the Glasgow subway,lines 1 & 14 in Paris & metros in 12 other world cities. They don't have any staff aboard. It's been like this for years. Why are they full of satisfied passengers? 'Cos they are safe & more reliable than a train with a guard who might not turn up & so get the train cancelled. Good luck Southern,stick to your plans. We will be wondering what the fuss was about in a year.

I doubt that very much once the findings of the Hayes and Harlington accident are acted on

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That's another issue I have with this OBS role. What exactly is the job description? It's okay for Horton and GTR to say they are 'safety trained' but that could mean absolutely anything from putting a plaster on an injured passenger to been able to carry out multi line emergency protection.

Are they a fully qualified conductor just without the requirement for using the door controls?

Are they an onboard RPI with minimal safety training just on evacuation and location of emergency equipment? No PTS, no rule book knowledge, no GSM-R knowledge, no competency assessments and certainly no door control training when the DOO fails?

If it's the former then there are minimal cost savings overall. The only cost saving I can see is they wouldn't require spare turns for links. If staff aren't available it can run DOO or with RDW.

A logical hypothetical alternative is to ask what would be the case if it is NOT the former and if so, what then are then your views on the other scenario.

 

[Flamingo]

I doubt that very much once the findings of the Hayes and Harlington accident are acted on

That's optimistic of you - the findings will be that the driver was at fault, not the system. Too big a can of worms will be opened if the system is criticised in any way.

 

[Surreytraveller]

20 years ago, it was expected that the public would be responsible for their actions. These days it is expected that the public need looking after. Therefore, if someone gets themselves trapped in a door of a train, it is the driver or guard's fault, not the pleb. So ASLE&F will be advising its drivers to individually check each door before departing a station when operating DOO services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

For those not as deeply immersed into the actualities of the thread matter as other so obviously are, it would be good if a summation is now published on this thread stating the status quo that now prevails after all recent matters occurred, so that those with an interest in how matters now stand can be fully updated knowledge-wise.

Just the hard bare facts as they stand will do, without the need for any personal axe-grinding added to yet again cloud the issue.

 

[DarloRich]

Better not travel on any London Overground/Underground train,most commuter trains from every London termini bar Waterloo & Euston plus Glasgow. All DOO for years.. Oh & mind the Glasgow subway,lines 1 & 14 in Paris & metros in 12 other world cities. They don't have any staff aboard. It's been like this for years. Why are they full of satisfied passengers? 'Cos they are safe & more reliable than a train with a guard who might not turn up & so get the train cancelled. Good luck Southern,stick to your plans. We will be wondering what the fuss was about in a year.

I am sure you are right. The point remains, however, that the dispute is not merely about who pushes a button.

 

[infobleep]

Well... during the Committee meeting with MP's the other day, Mr Horton told them that all OBS' will be safety trained to deal with emergencies and on-board equipment. I thought the intention was to remove their safety status, and I've not heard one guard yet to say that the safety critical element was to be retained?!?

Can anyone here concur with Mr Horton's testament?

If that's the case I assume XDM disagrees with Mr Horton. As XDM doesn't think a second person is required for safety. At least that's my reading of their views. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

20 years ago, it was expected that the public would be responsible for their actions. These days it is expected that the public need looking after. Therefore, if someone gets themselves trapped in a door of a train, it is the driver or guard's fault, not the pleb. So ASLE&F will be advising its drivers to individually check each door before departing a station when operating DOO services.

Someone else said that to me a month or two ago. I'd like to see that happen.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[313103]

Better not travel on any London Overground/Underground train,most commuter trains from every London termini bar Waterloo & Euston plus Glasgow. All DOO for years.. Oh & mind the Glasgow subway,lines 1 & 14 in Paris & metros in 12 other world cities. They don't have any staff aboard. It's been like this for years. Why are they full of satisfied passengers? 'Cos they are safe & more reliable than a train with a guard who might not turn up & so get the train cancelled. Good luck Southern,stick to your plans. We will be wondering what the fuss was about in a year.

You really have got beef on this issue havent you?

You wont be happy until the railway employ's Zero staff.

I bet you wont put down what you do, so we can get rid of your job so eloquently.

 

[JamesTT]

Further to earlier post I made as I understand DOO(P) is not signed off on certain routes and network rail are reluctant to make necessary changes so it can be. However if these changes were made and all Southern trains become equipped with DOO cameras what is to stop them going ahead with DOO(P) across the entire network?

I am not saying I agree with it putting the despatch element to one side. I agree there should be 2 members of staff on one train. That the second staff member should at least be trained in PTS, be able to operate the GSMR if necessary and be able to assist in an evacuation.

As I understand it some Southern platform staff have PTS training which involves being taught how to protect the line, they don't have 'route knowledge' I expect. Could the OBS staff not have similar training incase an incident required?

One other suggestion how about Southern say any future Conductor vacancies OBS staff will be given first refusal?

 

[tsr]

Further to earlier post I made as I understand DOO(P) is not signed off on certain routes and network rail are reluctant to make necessary changes so it can be. However if these changes were made and all Southern trains become equipped with DOO cameras what is to stop them going ahead with DOO(P) across the entire network?

The lighting may not be considered of the correct quality for the cameras to operate.

The signalling/radio system may not be robust enough for trains to be considered safe with only one person onboard.

Onboard cameras may not be sufficient to mitigate against risks from passenger movements arising from factors outside the view of said cameras, eg. particularly hazardous station entrance arrangements or crowd control issues.

I am not saying I agree with it putting the despatch element to one side. I agree there should be 2 members of staff on one train. That the second staff member should at least be trained in PTS, be able to operate the GSMR if necessary and be able to assist in an evacuation.

As I understand it some Southern platform staff have PTS training which involves being taught how to protect the line, they don't have 'route knowledge' I expect. Could the OBS staff not have similar training incase an incident required?

Both PTS trained and non-PTS-trained platform staff have a local induction for each station at which they are required to work. This is effectively localised route knowledge. I've been to these inductions at a number of stations a couple of years back, and depending on what you need to know, they can be pretty lengthy and detailed.

AIUI there is a proposal that OBS staff will be expected to pass PTS training except medically exempt. I'm not sure if GSM-R training will be required, and as for evacuation training, who knows... I'd say any and all of the above need effective route knowledge anyway.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Do all Southern Electrostars that haven't got bodyside cameras have the internals needed or would they need to have all the internal stuff installed if body side cameras were required?

 

[DarloRich]

is there any substance in the rumour going around that RMT have offered a fresh settlement plan to GTR?

 

[al78]

20 years ago, it was expected that the public would be responsible for their actions. These days it is expected that the public need looking after. Therefore, if someone gets themselves trapped in a door of a train, it is the driver or guard's fault, not the pleb. So ASLE&F will be advising its drivers to individually check each door before departing a station when operating DOO services.

More like that these days we recognise that people are infallible and do careless things, and due to the fundamental right to life we have in this (supposedly civilised) country we still have a duty of care to others, and don't have a right to kill people just because they are careless. If I am driving a car and a pedestrian steps into the road without looking I am not allowed by law to just run them down and claim they were careless and so deserved it, I am obliged to do what I can to avoid crashing into them.

 

[Fincra5]

is there any substance in the rumour going around that RMT have offered a fresh settlement plan to GTR?

RMT have written an open letter to GTR (big boss to big boss) stating they will not partake in industrial action for 3 months, IF GTR put the OBS plan on hold for the same time.

Thus giving more time for both sides to talk. I'd imagine GTR will reject it.

 

[Flamingo]

RMT have written an open letter to GTR (big boss to big boss) stating they will not partake in industrial action for 3 months, IF DfT put the OBS plan on hold for the same time.

Thus giving more time for both sides to talk. I'd imagine DfTwill reject it.

There you go, fixed that for you

 

[DarloRich]

RMT have written an open letter to GTR (big boss to big boss) stating they will not partake in industrial action for 3 months, IF GTR put the OBS plan on hold for the same time.

Thus giving more time for both sides to talk. I'd imagine GTR will reject it.

So am I - but it is sensible suggestion to deescalate the situation and give time to try and agree a proper deal.

 

[74A]

RMT have written an open letter to GTR (big boss to big boss) stating they will not partake in industrial action for 3 months, IF GTR put the OBS plan on hold for the same time.

Thus giving more time for both sides to talk. I'd imagine GTR will reject it.

I really can't see what the two sides can talk about. RMT have made it clear that they will not negotiate on who operates the doors and that is what GTR wants.

If RMT were willing to accept the principle of drivings doing the doors then there could be meaningful negotiations about the role of the OBS. Otherwise GTR will press on with the changes they have said will happen by the end of July. ASLEF don't seem to be making any further moves so surely it will now happen as GTR have planned.

 

[Urban Gateline]

That's another issue I have with this OBS role. What exactly is the job description? It's okay for Horton and GTR to say they are 'safety trained' but that could mean absolutely anything from putting a plaster on an injured passenger to been able to carry out multi line emergency protection.

Are they a fully qualified conductor just without the requirement for using the door controls?

Are they an onboard RPI with minimal safety training just on evacuation and location of emergency equipment? No PTS, no rule book knowledge, no GSM-R knowledge, no competency assessments and certainly no door control training when the DOO fails?

If it's the former then there are minimal cost savings overall. The only cost saving I can see is they wouldn't require spare turns for links. If staff aren't available it can run DOO or with RDW.

Apologies if it's been mentioned already but GTR seem to be recruiting externally for these OBS roles now!

https://gtrailwaycareers.com/templates/GTRailway/jobdetail.aspx?raparam=41784F64366C7365537A4677595A556D54575568556959456E36683568313543

Southern and Gatwick Express are leading the railway industry with the development of new customer service roles on board our trains. In August, the first of our new On Board Supervisors will start working on trains on our network, making a critical difference to our customers’ on-train experience. On Board Supervisors will keep you informed throughout the journey with information, help you when there are delays, check and validate tickets and help drivers manage the train to ensure smooth running. Whatever your journey needs, they will be there for you.



We’re looking to start building a talent pool for future new starters to join us on this new journey. To be an On Board Supervisor with us, you’ll need to demonstrate a fantastic, fresh attitude to serving customers. A pride in your appearance is essential. You’ll be resilient, and able to think on your feet at all times, be confident at managing situations as and when they arrive, and commit to putting customers first throughout the day. No two days will be the same, and you’ll travel widely on our network, helping us make the best impact on our customers’ journeys possible.



As our trains run all day and all night, you’ll need to be comfortable working shifts with unsocial times. On Board Supervisors will be needed on all days of the week.



Our package for reward reflects what we’re looking for. The starting salary offered is £24,000 or 6 months (plus a regional allowance depending on location). After a qualification period rising to £32,638. You’ll also benefit from free travel for you and your dependents on all GTR services and substantial deductions on all other train travel in the UK. We also offer enrolment in a final salary pension scheme, and joining us opens doors into a wealth of opportunities within our company.



Applications are now invited for both full time* and part time** positions at the following locations to start in Autumn 2016:



Victoria (Southern)

East Croydon (Southern)



We feel it’s important that you have passion and ability to perform. Previous experience in the rail industry may be useful, but we welcome applications from anyone who can convince us they are up for the challenge. There’s a minimum age requirement of 18 for these roles, and you must be able to attend your place of work with your own transport.



*Full time roles have an average 38.5hr week working on the basis of four days in a week with an additional Sunday every three weeks;

**Part time roles (pro-rata) have an average 19.25hr week working on the basis of two days in a week with an additional Sunday every six weeks;

 

[DarloRich]

I really can't see what the two sides can talk about. RMT have made it clear that they will not negotiate on who operates the doors and that is what GTR wants.

If RMT were willing to accept the principle of drivings doing the doors then there could be meaningful negotiations about the role of the OBS. Otherwise GTR will press on with the changes they have said will happen by the end of July. ASLEF don't seem to be making any further moves so surely it will now happen as GTR have planned.

you have to look beyond the public statements ( which are always diametrically opposed) and understand the actors involved and thier motivation. Sadly few people do understand this, on all sides. Things change over the course of a dispute and desire to talk sometimes increases, even if just for PR reasons. RMT will say they offered to settle the dispute if GTR refuse to talk. It is better to be seen to talk, even if you walk out later, rather than not turn up.

Most unions will seek to do a deal as some compromise and protecting the majority is better than no compromise and loosing the lot!

 

[Domh245]

Do all Southern Electrostars that haven't got bodyside cameras have the internals needed or would they need to have all the internal stuff installed if body side cameras were required?

All southern electrostars have got bodyside cameras. The only units in their fleet without cameras are the 455s and the 171s. I think you are thinking of the SouthEastern 375s, which don't have bodyside cameras.

 

[Greenback]

Well yes and I agree there should be. But truth is this dispute is really about productivity and has been a long time coming but was inevitable. There are two types of Guard. Those who give excellent visible service and the others, like the young lady who spent an entire Wloo Havant trip on Weds evening blatently reading about Wimbledon and the news on her mobile. She did not go round once. Regular pax on Southern know just how little some habitually do and if we do so assuredly do management. In short if there is a public perception that all guards do is press a button a few times on a journey I am afraid that a fair number of said guards have only themselves to blame. It's no surprise to me that GTR publicity has continually stressed the word visible when talking about OBS. Many regular pax and I bet a good few staff will know exactly what they are getting at.

Performance management is something that should be ongoing and in my view it's a separate issue to the dispute.

I can understand why people link the two together, but perception can be very misleading, especially if the facts, the job description and other relevant circumstances are unknown to the individuals who form that perception.

 

[DarloRich]

Well yes and I agree there should be. But truth is this dispute is really about productivity and has been a long time coming but was inevitable. There are two types of Guard. Those who give excellent visible service and the others, like the young lady who spent an entire Wloo Havant trip on Weds evening blatently reading about Wimbledon and the news on her mobile. She did not go round once. Regular pax on Southern know just how little some habitually do and if we do so assuredly do management. In short if there is a public perception that all guards do is press a button a few times on a journey I am afraid that a fair number of said guards have only themselves to blame. It's no surprise to me that GTR publicity has continually stressed the word visible when talking about OBS. Many regular pax and I bet a good few staff will know exactly what they are getting at.

So why have Southern management not performance manged those individuals you state are at fault? Surely that is a management failure.

 

[Carlisle]

RMT have written an open letter to GTR (big boss to big boss) stating they will not partake in industrial action for 3 months, IF GTR put the OBS plan on hold for the same time.

Thus giving more time for both sides to talk. I'd imagine GTR will reject it.

I can't really see much benefit in that unless all sides would genuinely agree to put their concerns to some form of independent body they'd all agree to cooperate with and accept its conclusions,then we can all to move on

 

[infobleep]

I really can't see what the two sides can talk about. RMT have made it clear that they will not negotiate on who operates the doors and that is what GTR wants.

If RMT were willing to accept the principle of drivings doing the doors then there could be meaningful negotiations about the role of the OBS. Otherwise GTR will press on with the changes they have said will happen by the end of July. ASLEF don't seem to be making any further moves so surely it will now happen as GTR have planned.

GTR don't seem to be making any movement either. Other than saying we want OBS and we shall have it whatever.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Apologies if it's been mentioned already but GTR seem to be recruiting externally for these OBS roles now!

https://gtrailwaycareers.com/templates/GTRailway/jobdetail.aspx?raparam=41784F64366C7365537A4677595A556D54575568556959456E36683568313543

At the risk of being considered inflammatory, I rather like the sound of that salary. I'm on a basic of £25411 pa, rising to £28011 with shift allowances. Do GTR staff get discounted travel on Thameslink/Great Northern/Gatwick Express/tube, in order to get to work at their depot (Victoria and East Croydon) ?

 

[Urban Gateline]

At the risk of being considered inflammatory, I rather like the sound of that salary. I'm on a basic of £25411 pa, rising to £28011 with shift allowances. Do GTR staff get discounted travel on Thameslink/Great Northern/Gatwick Express/tube, in order to get to work at their depot (Victoria and East Croydon) ?

Yes all except the Tube, the other TOC's you mentioned are all part of Govia so if you were employed by Southern you would get a pass valid on them plus London Midland and Southeastern as well.

The salary is good but it's a kick in the teeth for the current conductors though as these OBS will not be safety critical, there is a similar vacancy for the coastal area as well on Southern.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Also who would want to work for an employer that is known to metaphorically kick their employees in the gonads and then tell them that was better than the alternative.

 

[Chrisgr31]

RMT have written an open letter to GTR (big boss to big boss) stating they will not partake in industrial action for 3 months, IF GTR put the OBS plan on hold for the same time.

Thus giving more time for both sides to talk. I'd imagine GTR will reject it.

I suggested to Southern and the RMT on twitter that they had a 3 month suspension of DOO whilst a full independent study of its safety is carried out.

Strangely no comment!

 

[Mojo]

Yes all except the Tube, the other TOC's you mentioned are all part of Govia so if you were employed by Southern you would get a pass valid on them plus London Midland and Southeastern as well.

GTR staff are getting a yellow card which gives Priv-rate Oyster PAYG fares on LU, Overground, DLR and TfL Rail services. This is an extension of a reciprocal deal that allows staff on permanent TfL and LUL contracts to get Priv-rate season tickets. The deal was previously done with Capital Connect but I understand it has recently been extended to more of GTR. I'm not sure if all GTR staff are eligible though; I know a similar deal with East Coast is restricted only to staff in the London area.