EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[anme]

I read all of the 7 links you provided here. They contain a lot of assertions, but no raw data to back it up.

The exception is the Torygraph article, which does allude to an Ipsos Mori survey which completely torpedoes the idea that people trust Michael Gove more than they trust experts.

I didn't see anyone take up my challenge yet - to provide a single statistic used by the leave campaign that wasn't made up.

 

[miami]

I'm heading out on honeymoon on Monday and didn't think to buy currency before the vote.

I'm feeling like Boris Johnson must be.

Haha.

My wallet contains

Austrialian$: 55 == £31.80
NZ$: 20 == £10.98
Israeli Shekels: 60 == £11.91
US Dollars: 7 == £5.40
Egyptian Pounds: 150 == £13.03
Hong Kong Dollars: 600 == £59.70
Euros: 20 == £17.09
British Pounds: 6.75
Total: £154.66, and I've got some korean won, japanese yen, south african rand, kenyan shillings and a few other assorted curencies - about £50s worth, in the random currency box.

My cash holdings are getting more and more valuable by the hour - 4 weeks ago it was only worth £130, so I'm at least £25 up

Now if only those RBS shares that the country owns hadn't lost £10b, costing my family £600...

 

[northwichcat]

I'm heading out on honeymoon on Monday and didn't think to buy currency before the vote.

And I sold back my unused currency before the vote thinking if remain won the value of the pound will increase and I'll get less back, but with leave winning and leave having no plan I could have got an extra £6 if I waited until post-referendum.

 

[Tetchytyke]

My cash holdings are getting more and more valuable by the hour - 4 weeks ago it was only worth £130, so I'm at least £25 up

I've got about EUR50 in the back of a drawer, by the end of this week it'll probably be worth £375.

I hope the missus wasn't intending to actually buy anything in the Mall of the Emirates

 

[Gutfright]

I didn't see anyone take up my challenge yet - to provide a single statistic used by the leave campaign that wasn't made up.

That's because we all know that as soon as someone does, you'll just say "Yeah, but that's just one example. Look at these examples of debatable statistics they've used" in the hope that it leads to a tedious forensic examination of the veracity of every single statistic the leave campaign has used. Life's too short for that shiz.

 

[TheKnightWho]

That's because we all know that as soon as someone does, you'll just say "Yeah, but that's just one example. Look at these examples of debatable statistics they've used" in the hope that it leads to a tedious forensic examination of the veracity of every single statistic the leave campaign has used. Life's too short for that shiz.

On the other hand, you could have just provided one...

 

[DynamicSpirit]

First signs of the expected price rises following the Brexit vote?

US computer-maker Dell and the Chinese smartphone company OnePlus are both raising their prices in the UK and saying the move is the result of the nation's vote to leave the EU.

Another company, used by several camera equipment-makers to bring their goods to the UK, has also revealed it will soon follow suit.

Intro 2020 said it had been "punched in the stomach very hard" by sterling's drop after the Brexit referendum.

 

[Harbornite]

That's because we all know that as soon as someone does, you'll just say "Yeah, but that's just one example. Look at these examples of debatable statistics they've used" in the hope that it leads to a tedious forensic examination of the veracity of every single statistic the leave campaign has used. Life's too short for that shiz.

Hate to break it to you, but logical and pragmatic people with more than an iota of intelligence appreciate facts rather than rhetoric when questioning something. Life isn't too short for fact checking and you should ask yourself if a cause is really worth supporting if you can't back it up with facts.

 

[Mvann]

Eu bureaucracy take 1
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....xit-EU-referendum-politics/amp?client=safari#

 

[TheKnightWho]

Eu bureaucracy take 1
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....xit-EU-referendum-politics/amp?client=safari#

That trustworthy newspaper. The Express has utterly ignored every bad consequence of Brexit, and seems determined to see the EU fail whether we're in it or not, because they know that a divided Europe puts Britain in a stronger position than one with 27 countries united with us not part of it. In other words, it tacitly admits Brexit was a bad move.

That article contains nothing that shows the EU-Canada deal with fail, and is hilariously hypocritical given the Express pushed for Brexit whilst seemingly ignoring all consultation themselves. Indeed, the entire Leave camp ignored consultation with the two words 'Project Fear'.

 

[miami]

So we see evidence that the EU isn't actually an unelected bureaucracy, and that the the commission -- appointed by national governments -- don't actually have the power that the express and other liars say it has.

 

[anme]

That's because we all know that as soon as someone does, you'll just say "Yeah, but that's just one example. Look at these examples of debatable statistics they've used" in the hope that it leads to a tedious forensic examination of the veracity of every single statistic the leave campaign has used. Life's too short for that shiz.

OK, so we agree on something - the entire leave campaign was based on lies.

Now, here's a question for the leavers... Should EU citizens living in the UK (excluding UK citizens) retain the right to live *and work* after the UK leaves? Should they continue to have the same rights to pensions, healthcare, benefits, property, etc as a British person? Should they be allowed to stay if they lose their jobs?

So far, most politicians are only saying they can continue to live here - not any of the rest. That's simply delaying them going home. Will you go further, and like me insist that they retain *all* the rights they have now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I support that, and I expect that will happen. The reason May is being careful is because it is an important bargaining chip to play against the idea of British people living and working in Europe being similarly deported.

 

[Abpj17]

*sighs* on anti-intellectuals (and as gutfright alluded to, albeit I think a less relevant survey)..

- 17,410,742 voted to leave. Let's round that down to 17mn
- reasonable assumption that 'intellectual' and 'expert' are interchangeable for a majority of those and that think tanks, economists, academics are considered intellectuals and/or experts (or 'elite' for that matter)
- the 'trust' poll by yougov, identified 62% of leavers didn’t trust think tanks, 57% economists, 54% academics.
- The total sample was 1656, conservatively say only 40% of those were self-declared leave voters - around 650. Under standard polling methodology that’s a margin of error of less that 4% to a confidence level of 99%.
- Rounding down each time quite generously, than you can say at least 50% of those who voted leave don't trust experts/intellectuals. (50% is lower than 62%, 57%, 54%). Knock even more off to allow for a margin of error of 4% (so 50% - 4%).
- For super conservation and complaints about biased sampling...knock the reasonable 45% down to 30%. 30% of leave voters is around 5.6mn - significantly higher than the 850k number....
- I believe more than 5mn counts as a significant chunk of leave votes, or, indeed, of the country

And do bear in mind that 13% of the country, based on standard sampling, suggested that 'regardless of who is officially in charge, there is a single group of people who who secretly control events and rule the world together'
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/05/27/conspiracies/

Anme...and if they don't get the same benefits in terms of pensions, healthcare, property etc. should they be subject to lower or zero income tax rates?

 

[Groningen]

100 UK Pound = 126,94 Euro

 

[northwichcat]

100 UK Pound = 126,94 Euro

?

The official exchange rate is currently £1 = €1.17 so if someone is offering you almost €127 for £100 they are either making a loss or there's additional fees which you are ignoring.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

?

The official exchange rate is currently £1 = €1.17 so if someone is offering you almost €127 for £100 they are either making a loss or there's additional fees which you are ignoring.

Not necessarily. They could be offering to give £100 for €127 - and making quite a big profit in the process

 

[Tetchytyke]

100 UK Pound = 126,94 Euro

You're being stung by whichever foreign exchange company is offering you EUR 126.94 = £100.

 

[Johnuk123]

Followed by the referendum being run again

In your dreams.

 

[northwichcat]

In your dreams.

We haven't had a fair democratic process (both Remain and Leave told lies in their campaigning and unlike a General Election they won't be a new referendum when the public can judge if Leave have kept their promises) so I don't see how anyone can say the PM refusing to sanction us leaving the EU because of the referendum result saying 51.9% voted Leave would be unfair or undemocratic.

 

[radamfi]

There might be a reasonable chance of rejoining the EU in about 10-15 years time when a lot of the old people who voted leave have died, especially if the current young suffer disproportionately by leaving.

 

[Western Lord]

There might be a reasonable chance of rejoining the EU in about 10-15 years time when a lot of the old people who voted leave have died, especially if the current young suffer disproportionately by leaving.

By then today's young people will be well on the way to being old people and people's views change as they get older and wiser.

 

[TheKnightWho]

By then today's young people will be well on the way to being old people and people's views change as they get older and wiser.

Do you have the views that your grandparents had? They won't start hating Europe because they're 10 years older, just like we haven't seen the current older generation become more racist or start wanting to deny women the vote because their grandparents were or did (obviously not all of them, but you get the point).

 

[Johnuk123]

We haven't had a fair democratic process (both Remain and Leave told lies in their campaigning and unlike a General Election they won't be a new referendum when the public can judge if Leave have kept their promises) so I don't see how anyone can say the PM refusing to sanction us leaving the EU because of the referendum result saying 51.9% voted Leave would be unfair or undemocratic.

Say what you like about lies etc. but referendums aren't just re-run because people say that lies were told.

Had Remain won by 1.7m how many of your lot would be screaming for another go so Leave could win.

Any Govt. announcing the first one was scrapped and another will be held to ensure the right result would face the biggest amount of civil disorder ever seen in this country.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Say what you like about lies etc. but referendums aren't just re-run because people say that lies were told.

Had Remain won by 1.7m how many of your lot would be screaming for another go so Leave could win.

Any Govt. announcing the first one was scrapped and another will be held to ensure the right result would face the biggest amount of civil disorder ever seen in this country.

If I remember correctly, Farage said beforehand that he wanted a second one didn't he if the result was 52-48? I don't see him saying that now.

But are you really advocating violence because things don't go your way? That seems inadvisable. This country is going down the pan, despite the right-wing newspapers cheering about the slightest upturn (even though they're quickly wiped out). I would hate to see that made worse, given it's obvious there is a lot of hatred, xenophobia and racism on the Leave side after the 400% rise in hate crimes.

 

[Gutfright]

Democracy doesn't stop at the ballot. Those who claim it does because the current result is convenient are the real anti-democratics.

Overruling the wishes of the majority isn't anti-democratic.

War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength.

 

[AM9]

In theory, and I only say that because the time period involved means it may not be practicable, the FTPA could be superseded by another Act effectively abolishing it, and this would only require a majority of one vote and, so long as there were a quorum, most MPs do not even have to vote! This ridiculous act,seeking to tie the hands of future governments just like that deficits nonsense, is part of the monument to Cameron's wanton stupidity which will, of course, be topped by the biggest folly of all, the EU referendum.

The longer the delay before article 50 is enacted, the more the economy will suffer. The general public will in due course start to see the cost of all this in their own pockets, think Christmas and January sales when goods imported with the pound at $1.30 start looking expensive, fuel will start rising in price, food will be dearer yet our exports will go nowhere towards funding all of this. That is why the Leave side is beginning to get desperate about lodging the article 50 action. 'Project Fear' will start to look like 'Project wake up to reality' and public opinion will start to shift.
Of course a screaming Farage/Fox/Leadsome/Gove/IDS* et al won't necessarily cut it because there is no clear evidence that the original European Communities Act (1972) can just be countered by a Prime Minister - however elected. It may take a new law to repeal it, and there is no clear consensus in Parliament for exiting anyway. With an increasingly worried public feeling the effects of just a referendum vote, how many MPs would risk their careers dragging us into negotiations that might end up in a relationship which is not substantially different from that over the last 20+ years.

* screaming as much as 'the quiet man' can!

 

[TheKnightWho]

Overruling the wishes of the majority isn't anti-democratic.

War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength.

Oversimplification is intellectual etc. etc.

Your cheap rhetoric means nothing.

Since when has democracy stopped at the ballot box? Or is that inconvenient for you?

 

[Gutfright]

Oversimplification is intellectual etc. etc.

Your cheap rhetoric means nothing.

Since when has democracy stopped at the ballot box? Or is that inconvenient for you?

You're trolling me right?

We should ignore the results of a democratic referendum because "democracy doesn't stop at the ballot box"?

Should we ignore the results of General Elections for the same reason?

 

[TheKnightWho]

You're trolling me right?

We should ignore the results of a democratic referendum because "democracy doesn't stop at the ballot box"?

Should we ignore the results of General Elections for the same reason?

"He disagrees... he must be trolling!"

Does democracy stop at the ballot box or not? It's a simple question. Should we lead the country into oblivion on the word of people who have repeatedly shown they have no idea what they're talking about and will believe anything so long as it's anti-EU?