Should we have another referendum?

[chorleyjeff]

Interesting range of opinions shown so far.

For those who voted against a second Scottish referendum, I'd be interested to know why you think Scotland should be taken out of the EU against its will.

Same applies to London, Manchester, Liverpool and other places.
Let us hope London does not declare UDI
However as a United Kingdom we all go along with the majority vote. At least I would hope so

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Hear hear. Referendums, especially on things as important and complex as the EU, should be decided on by those who have the full picture, and not by the public who seem to be largely unaware of all sides of the argument and vote on one or two issues. It seems to be akin to passing sentence during a trial having only heard from one of the sides.

If a referendum is inevitable, then for matters like the EU which have far reaching implications, a supermajority (ie winner has more than 66.6% of votes) should be required. A simple majority is likely to leave the country split straight down the middle (which is what has happened). A result less than a supermajority should then force it into a re-run (with or without renegotiation of terms) or to be decided upon by elected representatives (like MPs)

You're attitude is exactly the reason why we should leave the EU. People have voted on what they see as important to them and if those one or two issues are more important than what you consider important then so be it - if you don't like democracy why not start a revolution to oppose it.
It is this very 'we know what's better for you than you do' mentality from Brussels that espouses all that is wrong with the EU- it is more Soviet than federal so it's hardly surprising that it's supporters want to overturn a free vote.
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Same applies to London, Manchester, Liverpool and other places.
Let us hope London does not declare UDI
However as a United Kingdom we all go along with the majority vote. At least I would hope so

Except the same doesn't really apply to Manchester and Liverpool - the vote in Liverpool wasn't overwhelming and overall Merseyside voted out, apart from the City of Manchester the Greater Manchester conurbation pretty much voted out.
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And supposedly educated young people were incapable of looking up the consequences themselves? Or each other? They have to be spoon fed by old white men?

They have no cause to complain. Had they all bothered to turn up we'd be staying in.

This is the second time they shot themselves in the foot. The first time was punishing the lib dems for bringing in £10k personal allowance, free school meals, gay marriage, voting reform referendum, protected international aid, etc etc etc

Another what if...... who is too say the young people who didn't vote would have voted leave making the majority even higher.

 

[Domh245]

You're attitude is exactly the reason why we should leave the EU. People have voted on what they see as important to them and if those one or two issues are more important than what you consider important then so be it - if you don't like democracy why not start a revolution to oppose it.

I've got no issue with that! If people want to vote based on immigration, I won't stop them. I'll be a bit sad that they're voting on immigration in a referendum that isn't really about immigration, but I'll respect their decision. If people want to vote based on Lies told by campaigns, I'll laugh (and probably then cry) at their naivety.

It is this very 'we know what's better for you than you do' mentality from Brussels that espouses all that is wrong with the EU- it is more Soviet than federal so it's hardly surprising that it's supporters want to overturn a free vote..

Would you trust a random member of the public to perform surgery, or would you trust a surgeon? Would you trust a random member of the public to drive your train home, or would you trust a train driver? Would you trust a random member of the public to determine the how deep to dig the foundations of your house, and what mix of concrete should be used, or would you trust an civil engineer? Would you trust a random member of the public to mix the right amount of chemicals in the right order and under the right conditions to produce a certain drug, or would you prefer a chemist?

In my opinion, realising when there are people who are better informed to make and execute a decision than you are and allowing them to vote for you is a good personality trait. If I apply this mentality to everyday things, I also apply it to politics, which I why I would have preferred our elected officials (MPs) to decide on this matter.

Another what if...... who is too say the young people who didn't vote would have voted leave making the majority even higher.

Statistically, young people were likely to vote in favour of the EU. There will have been some who voted against it, indeed some of my friends did (something like 1 in 20 based on what they've all posted on social media), but the overwhelming majority was pro EU. As another "what if", what if we let the large number (1.2million) of Britons living in the EU vote in this referendum?

 

[chorleyjeff]

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The same does apply.
I am aware that Liverpool and Manchester cities were islands of remain. But they have not moaned ( at least yet ) about being out referendumded

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I've got no issue with that! If people want to vote based on immigration, I won't stop them. I'll be a bit sad that they're voting on immigration in a referendum that isn't really about immigration, but I'll respect their decision. If people want to vote based on Lies told by campaigns, I'll laugh (and probably then cry) at their naivety.



?

..and there in lies the naivety of the EU, the major political parties and the Remain campaign. They ignored the issues and they continue to ignore the issues now not just in the UK but throughout Europe. The EU is itself creating the perfect setting for the rise of right wing extremism in Europe. Mass immigration over a short term has been divisive in many towns across this country, go out and see it, I've been around a lot of them the past six months and it is quite stark and obvious. It has given the disaffected indigenous population something and someone to blame and the only reaction from political parties has been to label people racists.
However much anyone argues the attitude of many towards immigrants is wrong it is a standard and obvious response from a long standing community towards a mass influx - they become scapegoats for all the other ills. The EU should never have allowed the free movement of labour until some degree of parity was established between all member states.
Merkel will have her work cut out retaining the Netherlands, Denmark and Austria within her superstate.

 

[Antman]

..and there in lies the naivety of the EU, the major political parties and the Remain campaign. They ignored the issues and they continue to ignore the issues now not just in the UK but throughout Europe. The EU is itself creating the perfect setting for the rise of right wing extremism in Europe. Mass immigration over a short term has been divisive in many towns across this country, go out and see it, I've been around a lot of them the past six months and it is quite stark and obvious. It has given the disaffected indigenous population something and someone to blame and the only reaction from political parties has been to label people racists.
However much anyone argues the attitude of many towards immigrants is wrong it is a standard and obvious response from a long standing community towards a mass influx - they become scapegoats for all the other ills. The EU should never have allowed the free movement of labour until some degree of parity was established between all member states.
Merkel will have her work cut out retaining the Netherlands, Denmark and Austria within her superstate.

Exactly that^, it is the EU that is directly responsible for any rise in right wing extremism.

 

[EM2]

Mass immigration over a short term has been divisive in many towns across this country, go out and see it, I've been around a lot of them the past six months and it is quite stark and obvious.

There was nothing to stop our Government placing restrictions on immigrants from the EU expansion countries, it could have been for up to seven years. It is explicitly allowed for under EU law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_enlargement_of_the_European_Union#Free_movement_issues

With their original accession to the EU, free movement of people between all 25 states would naturally have applied. However, due to concerns of mass migration from the new members to the old EU-15, some transitional restrictions were put in place. Mobility within the EU-15 (plus Cyprus) and within the new states (minus Cyprus) functioned as normal (although the new states had the right to impose restrictions on travel between them). Between the old and new states, transitional restrictions up to 1 May 2011 could be put in place, and EU workers still had a preferential right over non-EU workers in looking for jobs even if restrictions were placed upon their country. No restrictions were placed on Cyprus or Malta.

If our Government decided not to do that, that is not the EU's fault.

 

[me123]

The remain campaign didn't make much effort, but this isn't x-factor or a football match. If you're too thick to realise how important the vote was, and too thick to research the pros and cons yourself, then you can't complain afterwards.

The Scottish Independence referendum managed to attract the interest of young people without pandering to populism. They were engaged by the debate and encouraged to participate. There were even debates specifically targeted at young people to address their questions and concerns. It resulted in a much higher turnout. I saw absolutely none of this in the run up to Thursday's referendum.

As for researching - I tried to research, but trying to find any balanced debate on the EU was actually extremely difficult. It was only latterly that any real information about the positives of the EU started to come to the fore. The first three pages on Google were invariably bile from the Daily Heil.

 

[muz379]

Exactly that^, it is the EU that is directly responsible for any rise in right wing extremism.

So I guess you believe that now we are leaving the EU right wing extremism will reduce ?

 

[Antman]

So I guess you believe that now we are leaving the EU right wing extremism will reduce ?

Well not overnight it won't but in the long term it probably will.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Well not overnight it won't but in the long term it probably will.

So you blame extremism on the EU, instead of the people that hold extremist views?

Sometimes I really, really do marvel at the mental gymnastics that you must go through to justify your ridiculously simplified, responsibility-dodging point of view of the world.
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..and there in lies the naivety of the EU, the major political parties and the Remain campaign. They ignored the issues and they continue to ignore the issues now not just in the UK but throughout Europe. The EU is itself creating the perfect setting for the rise of right wing extremism in Europe. Mass immigration over a short term has been divisive in many towns across this country, go out and see it, I've been around a lot of them the past six months and it is quite stark and obvious. It has given the disaffected indigenous population something and someone to blame and the only reaction from political parties has been to label people racists.
However much anyone argues the attitude of many towards immigrants is wrong it is a standard and obvious response from a long standing community towards a mass influx - they become scapegoats for all the other ills. The EU should never have allowed the free movement of labour until some degree of parity was established between all member states.
Merkel will have her work cut out retaining the Netherlands, Denmark and Austria within her superstate.

I do not understand this kind of logic. Should they have kept segregation in America because it would have reduced tensions too?

 

[WestCoast]

There was nothing to stop our Government placing restrictions on immigrants from the EU expansion countries, it could have been for up to seven years. It is explicitly allowed for under EU law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_enlargement_of_the_European_Union#Free_movement_issues

If our Government decided not to do that, that is not the EU's fault.

Yes and the EU was entirely sensible about it, giving those poorer economies a grace period. In fact you could even argue that the economic growth of the new EU members suffered through emigration to open labour markets like the UK.

If that decision had been made during the Blair years you have to wonder if if we'd even be in this situation now. The public's disinterest in the European Parliament and EU policies has definitely contributed to the apathy we see now.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Has anyone carried out analysis of the referendum result (by local authority area) comparing the proportion of the 'out' vote with the level of recent in-migration?

It is not racist to want to protect your way of life.

If you live in a town with 1 GP, and a population of say 3,000 people, that fills his list. If the population increases by 20%, yet you still only have one doctor, why shouldn't people be concerned at the impact that uncontrolled and unmanaged migration has on them, now that they find it impossible to get a GP appointment? Ditto nursery places, school places, housing and so much more.

Uncontrolled migration is about to destroy the Great European Experiment. Best we get out first and sort ourselves out before the rest follow.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Has anyone carried out analysis of the referendum result (by local authority area) comparing the proportion of the 'out' vote with the level of recent in-migration?

It is not racist to want to protect your way of life.

If you live in a town with 1 GP, and a population of say 3,000 people, that fills his list. If the population increases by 20%, yet you still only have one doctor, why shouldn't people be concerned at the impact that uncontrolled and unmanaged migration has on them, now that they find it impossible to get a GP appointment? Ditto nursery places, school places, housing and so much more.

Uncontrolled migration is about to destroy the Great European Experiment. Best we get out first and sort ourselves out before the rest follow.

No where near in depth but places like North Devon, South Wales, lots of places in Northern England all voted out yet are barely touched by immigration.

And n any case, if your theory was right then people would be just as against internal migration from other parts of the UK. But the only time we really see that talked about is when it comes to holiday homes and house prices in the rural countryside / tourists areas.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

No where near in depth but places like North Devon, South Wales, lots of places in Northern England all voted out yet are barely touched by immigration.

And n any case, if your theory was right then people would be just as against internal migration from other parts of the UK. But the only time we really see that talked about is when it comes to holiday homes and house prices in the rural countryside / tourists areas.

It isn't my theory, it is a question which may give interesting results.

People are against 'internal' migration, although the welsh cottage burners have calmed down of late.

Casual analysis, supported by BBC articles, suggest that, essentially, long neglected parts of the UK have given the metropolitan elite a large Harvey Smith gesture. Not a good reason to vote out at all, given the possible consequences. Then again, much of the expert opinion gave a broad range of potential scenarios as a potential result of Brexit. Each side chose to selectively publish the bits which suited their arguments and neglect to mention the rest.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It isn't my theory, it is a question which may give interesting results.

People are against 'internal' migration, although the welsh cottage burners have calmed down of late.

Casual analysis, supported by BBC articles, suggest that, essentially, long neglected parts of the UK have given the metropolitan elite a large Harvey Smith gesture. Not a good reason to vote out at all, given the possible consequences. Then again, much of the expert opinion gave a broad range of potential scenarios as a potential result of Brexit. Each side chose to selectively publish the bits which suited their arguments and neglect to mention the rest.

You rarely hear people blame all their lives problems on internal migration though, whereas with immigration you do have a sector of the population who seems hell bent on blaming it for everything (it was only a while back Farage tried to blame it for him being stuck in traffic on the M4 and missing an event in Wales!)

I think your latter point sounds like a far better analysis than just blaming it on immigration. Basically those areas and people who have had positive experiences in terms of where their lives and careers have been going over the last decade ish voted to remain, and those areas and people who had less positive experiences voted to leave. Massive generalisation there, and granted it ignores a lot of other groups (educated people who don't like the direction the EU are going, people who may not like the EU but voted to stay for the benefit of others - say family, etc). But it does roughly add up.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

You rarely hear people blame all their lives problems on internal migration though, whereas with immigration you do have a sector of the population who seems hell bent on blaming it for everything (it was only a while back Farage tried to blame it for him being stuck in traffic on the M4 and missing an event in Wales!)

I think your latter point sounds like a far better analysis than just blaming it on immigration. Basically those areas and people who have had positive experiences in terms of where their lives and careers have been going over the last decade ish voted to remain, and those areas and people who had less positive experiences voted to leave. Massive generalisation there, and granted it ignores a lot of other groups (educated people who don't like the direction the EU are going, people who may not like the EU but voted to stay for the benefit of others - say family, etc). But it does roughly add up.

I was surprised how close the result was. When the final opinion polls were published I assumed they had got it spectacularly wrong. I met very few people (not in any way a controlled sample, nor an especially large one) who said they were voting to remain. Then again, Stoke-on-Trent did vote 70/30 to leave - the largest margin by a city I understand.

 

[EM2]

Has anyone carried out analysis of the referendum result (by local authority area) comparing the proportion of the 'out' vote with the level of recent in-migration?

The 30 voting areas with the greatest proportion of those identifying as English all voted Leave. See this map.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

The 30 voting areas with the greatest proportion of those identifying as English all voted Leave. See this map.

How did the opposite 30 vote i.e. the 30 areas with the most young people, most graduates, most non-identifying as English?

 

[Groningen]

I am not sure whether i had a post here, but otherwise for a second time. A no is a no. What if a second referendum comes to the same conclusion; will you than hold a third one.

 

[Trog]

Quoth the American Colonists: "No taxation without representation".

Strange how little it gets mentioned that the average colonist earned more than the average stay at home Britain, but paid a lot less tax. For which they got representation at a colony level. I suppose some taxation for a little representation did not make a good slogan. The other irony was that the taxation on tea that they objected to was to help pay for the French and Indian war started when a certain George Washington had his men fire on French troops in an area of disputed jurisdiction in a time of peace.

 

[EM2]

How did the opposite 30 vote i.e. the 30 areas with the most young people, most graduates, most non-identifying as English?

I don't know. Try doing some research and see if you can find the answer?
However, I can tell you that the London boroughs of Brent and Newham, the two most ethnically diverse boroughs in the UK, both voted Remain.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I am not sure whether i had a post here, but otherwise for a second time. A no is a no. What if a second referendum comes to the same conclusion; will you than hold a third one.

Yes.

Two maxims.

Keep voting until you give the result they want;

Vote early, vote often (re the on-line poll for a re-run taken over by the click farms)

 

[Busaholic]

Yes.

Two maxims.

Keep voting until you give the result they want;

Vote early, vote often (re the on-line poll for a re-run taken over by the click farms)

The Irish government did just this with their citizens - when the first referendum didn't produce the desired result on the Euro currency they just waited a few months and asked the question again.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I don't know. Try doing some research and see if you can find the answer?
However, I can tell you that the London boroughs of Brent and Newham, the two most ethnically diverse boroughs in the UK, both voted Remain.

No need. I got the result I wanted. I'll just have to live with the consequences of my ignorant stupidity. Then again, I wasn't doing too great with the current set up what with Cameron / Osborne austerity destroying my career and the life-style to which I had become accustomed etc.

Now (or hopefully soon) we can, for ourselves, decide to zero rate or exempt from VAT women's sanitary protection products without going cap in hand to some Brussels bureaucrat who will take 5 years to discuss it and never reach a decision. And so many other things.

Except of course, the leave voters will get stitched up when a 'Euro-lite' agreement is negotiated where we might as well be a full member as there will be minimal difference in practice. There will be a lot of rather disappointed exit voters (and happy remain voters) in two or so years time!

You know, I think I have watched too many episodes of Yes Minister recently and it is making me cynical.

 

[Howardh]

Except of course, the leave voters will get stitched up when a 'Euro-lite' agreement is negotiated where we might as well be a full member as there will be minimal difference in practice. There will be a lot of rather disappointed exit voters (and happy remain voters) in two or so years time!

That's exactly why I don't want a second referendum - they have had their day and won, now it's up to the remainers to make sure we aren't left out, and the best way is that Euro-lite senario where nothing, really. changes. What was it said about Germany- they "lost the war but won the peace"? We lost one day, but can sure win the next few years.

I'm a darned sight more optimistic than I was last Friday; and I think, secretly and deep down, Boris is a remainer. I'm convinced he won't let the country go to ruin, and if that means he takes stick from Brexit, so be it.

 

[miami]

Has anyone carried out analysis of the referendum result (by local authority area) comparing the proportion of the 'out' vote with the level of recent in-migration?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...e-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/

Areas with high immigration wanted to stay in the EU

Considering how the Leave campaign adopted immigration as one of its key arguments, claiming that the current level of net migration is too high, it is unsurprising that the Remain campaign resonated more strongly with Britain's immigrant population.

London, where immigration is massively higher than the rest of the country, voted overwhelmingly to Remain - by 60 percent to 40.

But it's the areas in the South East and the East Midlands, where immigration has made a bigger impact only recently, that Ukip and now the Leave campaign have most resonated with.

It is not racist to want to protect your way of life.

If you live in a town with 1 GP, and a population of say 3,000 people, that fills his list. If the population increases by 20%, yet you still only have one doctor, why shouldn't people be concerned at the impact that uncontrolled and unmanaged migration has on them, now that they find it impossible to get a GP appointment? Ditto nursery places, school places, housing and so much more.

Why wouldn't you be angry that the government hasn't funded an increase? London has seen a lot of people moving from elsewhere in the UK into London, should Londoners be angry with people from the north?
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The Irish government did just this with their citizens - when the first referendum didn't produce the desired result on the Euro currency they just waited a few months and asked the question again.

No, they found out what the problems were, got changes to the treaty, and then said "how about now"
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Now (or hopefully soon) we can, for ourselves, decide to zero rate or exempt from VAT women's sanitary protection products without going cap in hand to some Brussels bureaucrat who will take 5 years to discuss it and never reach a decision. And so many other things.

Did you contact your MEP about it? Did they raise it in parliament?

Except of course, the leave voters will get stitched up when a 'Euro-lite' agreement is negotiated where we might as well be a full member as there will be minimal difference in practice. There will be a lot of rather disappointed exit voters (and happy remain voters) in two or so years time!

We said this weeks ago.

And I for one won't be happy that we've thrown away our veto preventing Turkey from joining the EU though, or the other input we had on the rules.
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I am not sure whether i had a post here, but otherwise for a second time. A no is a no. What if a second referendum comes to the same conclusion; will you than hold a third one.

Bill and Ted did that (or rather Death did): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA5ryowAyLk

 

[Baxenden Bank]

That's exactly why I don't want a second referendum - they have had their day and won, now it's up to the remainers to make sure we aren't left out, and the best way is that Euro-lite senario where nothing, really. changes. What was it said about Germany- they "lost the war but won the peace"? We lost one day, but can sure win the next few years.

I'm a darned sight more optimistic than I was last Friday; and I think, secretly and deep down, Boris is a remainer. I'm convinced he won't let the country go to ruin, and if that means he takes stick from Brexit, so be it.

My bold. You only need to look at the 'panic on his face'. He has won the referendum but clearly doesn't relish the prospect of leaving Europe. Who is the greater fool - the person that voted to leave because they actually want to do so (for whatever reason) or the person who supported the leave campaign when they really wanted to remain - but then got the result they pretended they wanted?

 

[47802]

No I don't think we should have a referendum on the result however maybe we should have a vote on the settlement or even potential settlements we could end up with.

There was never proper discussion on this in the referendum it was brushed aside by brexit, yes we can have access to the single market with no migration and no budget contribution to the EU. But I think sensible people realise that is unlikely no other country has that deal with the EU and its likely to be a trade off between level of migration /Number of Likely Job Losses/Size of EU Contribution and maybe we should vote on that which is essentially what Jeremy Hunt is saying.

As an aside whoever becomes Prime Minister particularly if its Boris I carn't wait to see how they are going to spin this when they realise they can not get the have your cake and eat it deal.

 

[Howardh]

And I for one won't be happy that we've thrown away our veto preventing Turkey from joining the EU though, or the other input we had on the rules.
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Bill and Ted did that (or rather Death did): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA5ryowAyLk

That is the Beautiful Thing about the out vote. If we end up being in the EEA with freedom of movement (as a trade off for free trade) we would very likely have to admit Turkey's citizens, but wouldn't be able to veto it in the EU because we're not there!

All this is gonna backfire on them so spectacularly...I can't see for one moment that our government, industry and civil service will throw everything away just to abide by WTO rules.

By that time, hopefully (if things go to plan) I'll be having my retirement on a lovely Spanish island, well out of the way.